HCG dose and timing

[tex-electric]

Hey guys, I'm 46 and been on test C weekly for about two and a half years! Currently taking .9 ml of the test once a week, just started back on HCG at 300 iu twice a week on days 3 and 5, and a dose of arimadex the day after test inj.! Last week test level was about 801. My question is, is this an appropriate TRT protocol? Don't think my doc is too familiar with the hcg usage! I've read on here that most guys take the hcg twice the two days prior to test inj. And is the dose a good dose? My testicles are super tiny and there's not much hang at all ( never had large balls anyway )! Also don't know if it has anything to do with it but my semen amount is way below normal and seems like it has been every since I've been on test! Thanks and any advice would be appreciated!

[Proximal]

Curious, as I am new to the game (I'm 57, on TRT for 8 months), what .9ml is in mg.

From everything I've seen here, it's 250 mg. of hcg, 2x/wk. I'm far less sure of this, but I believe I've read the timing is not important.

I didn't do hcg. my first 7 1/2 months, but just started. Testicular shrinkage for me was getting a bit more noticeable & I have also noticed a loss in semen the past 2 - 3 months.

At .75 mg. 2x/wk of test c for me (sub- Q), I run around 1000 total test. From memory, I've seen members post averages from the 800s, up to 1200. Originally I started with .5mg. Of Arimidex 2x/wk., but my E2 levels dropped too low and have been using less than .25mg 2x/wk. with better numbers.

What's your body fat percentage as higher levels aromitize more? Also are you measuring your E2 with a sensitive Estradiol assay?

Welcome to the forum!

[kelkel]

First, when was the blood work pulled relative to your last injection? Then we can discuss your protocol better.

[tex-electric]

Don't know BF % I'm about 5'7" and weigh about 168, and fairly muscular, workout about 5 days a week! Look descent for an old dude!
Kelkel, blood work done 5 days after!

[Proximal]

Tex, you got Kel here so you are in the best of hands. Let me know how the hcg works for you.

[kelkel]

Tex 800 isn't bad at all on day 5. Higher than most once per week protocols, imho. Test peaks in about a day or so (metabolism dependent) after injection. The image below will give you an idea. I post this often to give guys a visual of it:



Re HCG and timing. The idea with the HCG shots being both 1 and 2 days prior to the T injection is in fact wrapped around the one injection per week testosterone protocol. It's purpose is to bump up your waning T levels at the end of the week prior to injection. In your case it's not really relevant as your levels are not low at the end of the week. 300 IU X 2 per week is fine. Many also will do 250 iu's x 3. Just pick two separate days and you'll be fine. Give the HCG some time to work and continue to monitor your BW. Re semen volume, give it some time as well. Also know that it can decline with age.

Re testicular size, it really doesn't matter. Mine never really bounced back after being almost totally shut down from an adenoma. Main thing is they're still functioning somewhat with the introduction of HCG.

Re is your protocol appropriate? That depends on you and how you feel, along with what your blood work reveals. Not simply hormone levels. Many guys do just fine with once per week protocols. A more current protocol is to cut your dose in half and inject twice per week. This will give you more stable levels. Meaning you won't have the high peak initially followed by the steady drop in levels. It's also a mechanism to be able to reduce the total amount of T you're using and this, along with the smaller injections can precipitate a reduction or even elimination of adex, which is a great goal.

[Proximal]

Tex 800 isn't bad at all on day 5. Higher than most once per week protocols, imho. Test peaks in about a day or so (metabolism dependent) after injection. The image below will give you an idea. I post this often to give guys a visual of it:



Re HCG and timing. The idea with the HCG shots being both 1 and 2 days prior to the T injection is in fact wrapped around the one injection per week testosterone protocol. It's purpose is to bump up your waning T levels at the end of the week prior to injection. In your case it's not really relevant as your levels are not low at the end of the week. 300 IU X 2 per week is fine. Many also will do 250 iu's x 3. Just pick two separate days and you'll be fine. Give the HCG some time to work and continue to monitor your BW. Re semen volume, give it some time as well. Also know that it can decline with age.

Re testicular size, it really doesn't matter. Mine never really bounced back after being almost totally shut down from an adenoma. Main thing is they're still functioning somewhat with the introduction of HCG.

Re is your protocol appropriate? That depends on you and how you feel, along with what your blood work reveals. Not simply hormone levels. Many guys do just fine with once per week protocols. A more current protocol is to cut your dose in half and inject twice per week. This will give you more stable levels. Meaning you won't have the high peak initially followed by the steady drop in levels. It's also a mechanism to be able to reduce the total amount of T you're using and this, along with the smaller injections can precipitate a reduction or even elimination of adex, which is a great goal.

Sorry Tex, I shouldn't even have tried, just needed to wait for this guy! Thanks Kelkel, always learn something new when you post. Question for me please - is the hcg 3x per week used in TRT to try to lessen the amount of testosterone, is it a temporary dosage - just don't recall seeing this before (however, only here for 8 month now)? Thanks!

[bass]

Kel covered it all. for me nothing beats twice a week protocol.

Tex, have you tried SQ injections?

[kelkel]

Sorry Tex, I shouldn't even have tried, just needed to wait for this guy! Thanks Kelkel, always learn something new when you post. Question for me please - is the hcg 3x per week used in TRT to try to lessen the amount of testosterone, is it a temporary dosage - just don't recall seeing this before (however, only here for 8 month now)? Thanks!

I normally go 3 x 250. It's just personal preference. Many guys now do low dose daily HCG (100 iu per day) as they feel they benefit more from the smaller, daily dosing than the larger, more infrequent ones. Nothing wrong with experimenting a bit and seeing if you feel a difference. Then if your doc is liberal with blood work take a week off HCG prior to your next routine BW and see what difference it makes in T and E for you.

To your point, I personally never look at HCG as a way to boost my testosterone as my doc allows me total control over my protocol. Most are far more micro-managed and it may be useful to that end. I view HCG as a necessary adjunct to a protocol to maintain testicular function.

Remember this:

Human chorionic gonadotropin therapy
A known critical element in the development of healthy spermatogenesis is high intratesticular testosterone.13 In men using exogenous testosterone, these levels can be greatly diminished. Intramuscular human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) therapy is an option shown to protect against, or at least to diminish, the impact that exogenous testosterone has on intratesticular testosterone levels. In a randomized, controlled trial of 29 healthy men randomly assigned to four groups, testosterone enanthate was given 200 mg per week plus either intramuscular saline, 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day. Sperm, intratesticular testosterone levels, and gonadotropins were measured at day 0 and day 21. Intratesticular testosterone levels were suppressed by 94% in the placebo group, 25% in the 125 IU hCG treatment group, and 7% in the 250 IU hCG treatment group, and they were increased 26% from baseline in the 500 IU hCG treatment group.13 Thus, even with supraphysiologic doses of testosterone replacement, healthy levels of intratesticular testosterone were maintained by low-dose hCG therapy.
The benefits of hCG therapy are not limited to maintaining healthy levels of intratesticular testosterone levels alone. These benefits also include maintenance of spermatogenesis in males receiving testosterone supplementation. We have previously demonstrated the ability of hCG therapy to maintain spermatogenesis in men receiving TST. When 26 hypogonadal men receiving TST via transdermal patches or intramuscular injections and concomitant low-dose hCG were studied retrospectively, factors such as serum and free testosterone, estradiol, serum parameters, and pregnancy rates were evaluated. Results showed no differences in semen parameters during 1 year of follow-up, and none of the men became azoospermic during the treatment.

[tex-electric]

Bass - yes SQ for HCG near naval and test is IM alternating on the backside!

Thanks a lot guys, I've learned a lot!

[bass]

Bass - yes SQ for HCG near naval and test is IM alternating on the backside!

Thanks a lot guys, I've learned a lot!

i meant for your test shot, have you tried SQ?

[tex-electric]

i meant for your test shot, have you tried SQ?

I didn't know that you could, where and pin length?

[tex-electric]

i meant for your test shot, have you tried SQ?

I didn't know that you could do SQ, where and pin gauge and length?

[tex-electric]

I never heard of SQ for T ! Where you stick and what gauge and length?

[kelkel]

I never heard of SQ for T ! Where you stick and what gauge and length?

Anywhere you can pinch a little fat. Most go an inch or so outside the navel. Any size insulin pin you're comfortable with from 27 ga .5" to 31 ga 5/16". Search up some threads here using the search function. Not to be used for larger amounts of T.

Subcutaneous administration of testosterone. A pilot study report. - PubMed - NCBI

[Youthful55guy]

As a nearly 5 year veteran of TRT, I strongly agree with all of the advice Kel has given:

1) More frequent/smaller injections are better than larger/less frequent injections. I go back and forth between E3D (0.2 mL of a compounded T-Cyp/T-Prop blend) and daily (0.07 mL), depending on my mood. I don't really feel any difference between the two, but in theory, daily should result in lower peak T & E levels with fewer side-effects. The biggest benefit to lower doses is the lower volume allows you to drop down to an insulin syringe. I use a 30G 1/2 inch needle IM.

2) HCG is primarily used to prevent testicular atrophy, so I don't even factor in the small bump I get in T. I find 700 IU per week to be about right and generally break the dose up according to the days that I inject T. It just makes it easier to remember and prep the skin all at the same time.

3) Yes you can do T injections sub Q. Most guys pinch the fat to the left and right of the navel and inject there, alternating sides. It works best if you drop down to daily injections for SQ because of volume issues and bruising. Even with small volumes, I could never get it to work without bruising, but I think that has more to do with the T-Prop in my mix than the procedure. I'm not sure T-Prop should be injected SQ. The reason I think it's the T-Prop is that I've been doing SQ HGH for a couple of months and have had zero bruising, so I'm pretty sure it's not my technique.