Am I crazy.....

[petemitchell30]

I've been on TRT for a month now. At first I was on 200mg Cyp weekly, clomid ED, Adex 1mg 3X per week, HCG , and Anavar 20mg ED.

After 1 week I crashed, immediately cut out Clomid, cut back Adex to .5 2X/week.
So from week 2 until now (week 4) I've been on Adex .5/week, HCG, and test cyp 200mg/week.

Week 2 I felt better, but nips were sensitive.
Week 3 less sensitive, but still felt like they were sensitive so I got blood work done day after I took 200mg test, and E2 was 33.8, with normal between 8-35.
Week 4, I still feel like there might be something there, but can't tell if its in my head or not. Got sensitive E2 test day after I took Test 200mg this week also.....labs not back yet.


I am super scared to grow tits, and told my doc as much at the initial appointment.
Have I just lost my fucking mind and am feeling things that aren't there, or could this be gyno rearing its ugly head?

[Simon1972]

I had sensitive nips when i first got on trt, its your body adjusting to the change in hormones. Give it time.

Also your trt dosage is too high.- typical starting is 100-150mg a week.
Adex, is between 0.5-1mg week. Your current protocol for adex should be the day after you inject. (0.5mg )

Your week 3 high E levels are a result of your high Testosterone doses, you are aromatising exogenous and endogenous testosterone - give your body time to level off its own test production. just to be sure.

either way- you shouldn't pull bloods until 5-6 weeks after settling on a protocol- you need to stabilise first and give your body a chance to find homeostasis.

Your dr is inexperienced.

[Proximal]

Anavar for TRT?

[Charger Hemi]

Was the initial regimen put by your doctor? I agree with Simon that you should give your body some time before any blood work.

typical starting is 100-150mg a week.

Simon, isn't that determined based on the numbers! I started with 200mg/week. There were no side effects.

[IncreaseMyT]

Its EXTREMELY rare to get gyno at doctor prescribed dosages.

Most new guys get a bout of phantom gyno when they start TRT though

[petemitchell30]

Its EXTREMELY rare to get gyno at doctor prescribed dosages.

Most new guys get a bout of phantom gyno when they start TRT though

What is "phantom gyno"?? Do you mean its all in my head, or I have sensitive nips but it isn't gyno?

[IncreaseMyT]

I am not saying you specifically, it is possible you have gyno, just not likely IMHO.

My nips always get more sensitive on TRT. Harder too

Not to mention your on 1mg of anastrozole, as long as its real then I doubt your E is high at all, in fact from taking so much anastrozole previously at 1mg 3 times per week I would bet your E2 is actually low.

Blood test is the only way to know for sure though. Remember guys gyno doesn't happen overnight, as long as you treat symptoms/labs your not gonna grow boobs. Its the guys that do nothing for long periods of time even though they have symptoms.

Usually for guys that do get gyno on TRT doses they usually had gyno before naturally. For instance guys that had or have idiopathic hypogonadism.

Hope this helps.

[Simon1972]

Was the initial regimen put by your doctor? I agree with Simon that you should give your body some time before any blood work.




Simon, isn't that determined based on the numbers! I started with 200mg/week. There were no side effects.

200mg may be ok for your situation after proper blood work and evaluation- but it should never be the starting dose, such as what the OP has stated- most guys on that dose convert and need an AI to limit aromatisation- something easily achieved by simply lowering the dosage in the first instance.

[Simon1972]

What is "phantom gyno"?? Do you mean its all in my head, or I have sensitive nips but it isn't gyno?

you have sensitivity, you also have mild hardness in relation to the hormonal changes caused by the sudden onset of exogenous hormones and endogenous hormones balancing and working off each other.
This will subside and level off, once you get dialled in.

bloodwork not guesswork.

[IncreaseMyT]

200mg may be ok for your situation after proper blood work and evaluation- but it should never be the starting dose

Sorry but we have to disagree here. The goal of TRT is not only to feel better but also to decrease risk factors for disease.

Understand risk factors do not climb when someone has lowT simply because of their testosterone levels , the accumulation of Android fat and waist circumference determine risk for intrinsic diseases.

So if you do not decrease BMI has the goal been accomplished? The answer is no.

So its perfectly fine for the guy that has excess Android fat accumulation to start that high because studies have shown 200mg is the LOWEST dosage that induces clinically significant physiological changes to BMI.

Nothing wrong with starting @ 200mg for the guys who have beer bellies

For the guy who just has the mental symptoms of lowT a lower starting dosage would work fine.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men | Endocrinology and Metabolism

[Proximal]

Sorry to be a pest, but is anavar a proper TRT med, what is its usage here? I'm just trying to learn, thanks!

[IncreaseMyT]

Sorry to be a pest, but is anavar a proper TRT med, what is its usage here? I'm just trying to learn, thanks!

Not in our opinion, oxandrolone can impact lipids pretty profoundly.

There are peptides that will alleviate the same symptoms and give you a better result while positively impacting inflammation.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mr.BB]

Sorry but we have to disagree here. The goal of TRT is not only to feel better but also to decrease risk factors for disease.

Understand risk factors do not climb when someone has lowT simply because of their testosterone levels , the accumulation of Android fat and waist circumference determine risk for intrinsic diseases.

So if you do not decrease BMI has the goal been accomplished? The answer is no.

So its perfectly fine for the guy that has excess Android fat accumulation to start that high because studies have shown 200mg is the LOWEST dosage that induces clinically significant physiological changes to BMI.

Nothing wrong with starting @ 200mg for the guys who have beer bellies

For the guy who just has the mental symptoms of lowT a lower starting dosage would work fine.

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men | Endocrinology and Metabolism

The 2001 study you posted has nothing to support your claim. Why not 600mgs like in the study? Lol

Would love to see actuall supporting case study to your claim of only 200mg induces significantly changes in BMI?

200mgs will increase aromarization which is why smaller dosage is advised by Simon (and me).
If you want to reduce BMI changes in diet and cardio training are much healthier.

[IncreaseMyT]

Why don't you read the study, it states in there specifically. If you cant find it, let me know and I will highlight it.

And yes groups exercised during the study, and yes 200mg was the lowest dosage to stimulate a significant response. 125mg per week did not however induce significant changes to BMI

It is of note, even though we do not recommend it, dosages as high as 600mg per week caused no clinically significant effects on lipids and only two people reported acne.

I don't use an AI at all on 200mg.

[IncreaseMyT]

I had a free moment so pulled it for you.

Fat mass, measured by underwater weighing, increased significantly in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses but did not change in men receiving the higher doses of testosterone (Table 3, Fig. 1). There was an inverse correlation between change in fat mass by underwater weighing and log testosterone concentrations (r = −0.60, P = 0.0001, Fig.2).

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/conten...2/F2.large.jpg

Hemoglobin levels decreased significantly in men receiving the 50-mg dose but increased at the 600-mg dose; the changes in hemoglobin were positively correlated with testosterone concentrations (r = 0.66, P = 0.0001) (Table7). Changes in plasma HDL cholesterol, in contrast, were negatively dependent on testosterone dose (P = 0.0049) and correlated with testosterone concentrations (r = −0.40, P = 0.0054). Total cholesterol, plasma low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, and triglyceride levels did not change significantly at any dose. Serum PSA, creatinine, bilirubin, alanine aminotransferase, and alkaline phosphatase did not change significantly in any group, but aspartate aminotransferase decreased significantly in the 25-mg group. Two men in the 25-mg group, five in the 50-mg group, three in the 125-mg group, seven in the 300-mg group, and two in the 600-mg group developed acne. One man receiving the 50-mg dose reported decreased ability to achieve erections.

[kelkel]

Sorry but we have to disagree here. The goal of TRT is not only to feel better but also to decrease risk factors for disease.

Understand risk factors do not climb when someone has lowT simply because of their testosterone levels, the accumulation of Android fat and waist circumference determine risk for intrinsic diseases.

Assume you're referring to Metabolic Syndrome...

[IncreaseMyT]

Yes! Forgive me I am running short on time I cant find the study showing a direct relationship between androgen receptor activation and visceral fat loss and accumulation.

But in general waist circumference is the tell tale sign of your health, and we all know optimal testosterone levels favor decreased waist circumference.

Thank you for clarifying though!

In a 14-year study of more than 15,000 people, normal-weight men with big bellies were twice as likely to die compared to men who were obese. Women with normal weights and big bellies were 32% more likely to die during the study than obese women, according to the study, led by Francisco Lopez-Jimenez, a Mayo Clinic cardiologist.

“Often times, we think if we’re a normal weight, then we’re OK,” said Leslie Cho, head of preventive cardiology at the Cleveland Clinic, who wasn’t involved in the new study, published in Annals of Internal Medicine. “But weight is not as important as your level of fitness and where you hold your fat.”

Belly fat may be more dangerous for the heart than obesity

[Mr.BB]

Why don't you read the study, it states in there specifically.
And yes groups exercised during the study, and yes 200mg was the lowest dosage to stimulate a significant response. 125mg per week did not however induce significant changes to BMI
It is of note, even though we do not recommend it, dosages as high as 600mg per week caused no clinically significant effects on lipids and only two people reported acne.

I don't use an AI at all on 200mg.

I had a free moment so pulled it for you.



http://ajpendo.physiology.org/conten...2/F2.large.jpg

The study has groups with 25, 50, 125, 300 and 600 mg per week, where is, like you said, specifically says that 200 is the minimum???

Furthermore this well known 2001 study has the fatal flaw of not including e2 measurements.

But, Im curious now, how do you know that this OP has a "beer belly"?? As you said before you advice starting @200mg for "beer bellies", how do you know this is the case?

[IncreaseMyT]

I don't know the medical history of OP, someone made a general statement that 200mg is too much to start on TRT and that is false general statement that we disagree with. We were simply pointing that out.

The study I pointed out shows the clear dose-response relationship between testosterone and physiological changes.

Pertaining to our conversation E2 is irrelevant.

The study is for you, we don't need it, we do this everyday sir.

[IncreaseMyT]

FYI the vast majority of men have waist circumference problems in conjunction with their lowt, unless of course the lowt was derived from injury or genes.

You may not know this but they are reading this thread right now, I would guess about 85% of our clients never actually get brave enough to post on the boards. So you may not hear from those types of guys all the time but we can assure you they are here.

After all thats what lowT does, it increases your waist circumference even if you have maintained the same diet and exercise routine for years.

I don't understand why I have to explain this, did you guys not have a testosterone deficiency that affected your bodies ability to manage fat? Do you have trauma to the pituitary or testes?

Or are you on TRT due to ASIH?

[Mr.BB]

I don't know the medical history of OP, someone made a general statement that 200mg is too much to start on TRT and that is false general statement that we disagree with. We were simply pointing that out.

The study I pointed out shows the clear dose-response relationship between testosterone and physiological changes.

Lets agree to disagree then. Trying to give men this "mini-cycles" of 200mg just to expect fat reduction without adressing diet and cardio is something most of us here dont agree and are strongly against.

Pertaining to our conversation E2 is irrelevant.

But is not irrelevant to his health!

The study is for you, we don't need it, we do this everyday sir.

Well, by the looks of it you could do it better.

[IncreaseMyT]

I am talking about E2 not being relevant as far as "the study having fatal flaw"

I think you are so behind in the conversation it may be good if we take a break from discussion for a bit and re-convene later.

PS 200mg per week is not a cycle. We do not condone, or recommend "cycling"

Hope this helps.

[petemitchell30]

If it helps, I'm 34yrs old, 6'4" 230lbs with and wear a size 36 inch waist.....i like my pants to fit loose/comfortable. I have no idea what my bf% is....I'm lean, but not ripped.

My starting Test level was a 390, and I just got my estrogen checked last Friday, and its at 19.

However, the reason I went to this particular doctor is because he has the reputation as an "ask and ye shall receive" type of guy. I'm not even taking the anavar now, I'm stockpiling it so I can blast it later. After reading up on all this stuff, I'm way more worried about the regular HCG injections, because it seems as if my body will become dependent on that stuff, so if I ever do need to get off of TRT, my test levels will be shot bc my body will be dependent on the HCG and wo'nt produce any on its own