Krugerrs TRT Journey

[krugerr]

I wondered why my other thread wasnt getting many hits. Its in the "Before TRT" sub forum. Im a knob!

Basically suffered long time with LowT. Had blood tests over several years, with intermittent cycling in between and self TRT. Decided to bite the bullet and get it properly dealt with. Use Gel for 4 weeks and it just dropped my levels down to nothing. Switched to Nebido (1000mg/4ml) injection on 3rd March. The story continues from there.

This blood test was done on 14th July, 6 weeks after my second Nebido injection. There was no booster shot. Ive created a spreadsheet to track my blood levels, and predicted Nebido levels. As shown by the graph attached. As you can see, my levels should be going up, but they've gone down. LH and FSH are suppressed heavily, so the exogenous test is present.

Got full blood results back. Bare in mind that LH/FSH is low due to TRT for a while. Attached is the image, for anyone unable to see the table.

Anyone able to offer some suggestions? I have a Dr appointment in 2 weeks to discuss these results. What should I go armed with?

Free Testosterone	201 pmol/L	225-9999 pmol/L
Serum TSH Level (XRCC)	3.5 mu/L	0.35-4.5 mu/L
Serum Testosterone	7.1 nmol/L	10 - 35 nmol/L
Serum Sex Hormone Binding Globin	17 nmol/L	10 - 70 nmol/L
Serum Cholesterol	4.9 mmol	<5.2 mmol/L
Serum Triglycerides	2.11 mmol/L	0.28 - 2.2 mmol/L
Serum HDL Cholesterol	1.02 mmol/L	1 - 10 mmol/L
Calculated LDL Cholesterol	2.9 mmol/L	<3 mmol/L
Serum Cholesterol/HDL Ratio	4.8	<4
Serum LH Level	<0.3 u/L	2 - 9 u/L
Serum FSH Level	0.8 u/L	1 - 18 u/L
Serum Oestradiol Level (XRCC)	102 pmol/L	0 - 146 pmol
Haemoglobin Estimation	183 g/L	130 - 180 g/L
Total White Cell Count	5.3 (10*9/L)	4 - 11 (10*9/L)
Platelet Count	182 (10*9/L)	150 - 500 (10*9/L)
Red Blood Cell Count	6.28 (10*12/L)	4.5 - 6.5 (10*12/L)
Haemocrit	0.52 L/L	0.38 - 0.54 L/L
Mean Corpuscular Volume (MCV)	82.8 fL	76 - 103 fL
Mean Corpusc Haemoglobin (MCH)	29.1 pg	27 - 32 pg
Mean Corpusc Hb Conc (MCHC)	352 g/L	310 - 360 g/L
Red Blood Cell Distribution Width	12.8 %CV	11 - 16 %CV
Percentage Hypochromic Cells	0.1 %	0 - 2.5 %
Neutrophil	2.86 (10*9/L)	1.5 - 8 (10*9/L)
Lymphocyte Count	1.8 (10*9/L)	1.3 - 4 (10*9/L)
Monocyte Count	0.32 (10*9/L)	0.2 - 0.8 (10*9/L)
Eosinophil Count	0.16 (10*9/L)	0.0 - 0.8 (10*9/L)
Basophil Count	0.05 (10*9/L)	0.0 - 0.3 (10*9/L)

[hammerheart]

TSH is lil raised, ever got a full thyroid panel?

[krugerr]

TSH is lil raised, ever got a full thyroid panel?

Thats all I have so far. I can request one at next appointment.
It says upper limit is 4.5, so what indicates that its raised? (Newbie question)

[kelkel]

What bizz said.
Why no booster?
Add fish oil.

[krugerr]

What bizz said.
Why no booster?
Add fish oil.

Dr wouldnt sign off on the booster, without him signing off, no script, no Nebido. Basically... I am going to kick his arse in the next appointment. The Booster would have made the recent test levels much higher.

Add Fish Oil?

[macmathews]

Dr wouldnt sign off on the booster, without him signing off, no script, no Nebido. Basically... I am going to kick his arse in the next appointment. The Booster would have made the recent test levels much higher.

Add Fish Oil?

I don't wanna derail this thread..
So i'll just ask .. How many grams of fish oil a day , Kel kel ?

Mac

[Mr.BB]

Im also on nebido, trying to decide if im taking the booster shot at 6weeks, which was due last tuesday.

You might want to donate before doing next bloodwork, or it might scare the doc.

[Mr.BB]

Add Fish Oil?

And fruits and veggies, for your HDL

[krugerr]

Im also on nebido, trying to decide if im taking the booster shot at 6weeks, which was due last tuesday. You might want to donate before doing next bloodwork, or it might scare the doc.

Forgive my ignorance again. Which stat are you reading for that?

And fruits and veggies, for your HDL

HDL is just a ratio of total and LDL. Which is ridiculous.

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[Mr.BB]

Forgive my ignorance again. Which stat are you reading for that? H & H, hematocrit and hemoglobin


HDL is just a ratio of total and LDL. Which is ridiculous. Your HDL is low

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In blue above.

[IncreaseMyT]

Just like I said, BURIED his T levels with that injection schedule.

Just FYI fellas his cholesterol is like that cause he is buried.

Blew up his HCT too in just 6 weeks, thats what happens when you inject that much T at once though.

[kelkel]

I don't wanna derail this thread..
So i'll just ask .. How many grams of fish oil a day , Kel kel ?

Mac

I do 1500 EPA and 750 DHA.

[krugerr]

In blue above.

Righto mate. Thanks!

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}

[krugerr]

Just like I said, BURIED his T levels with that injection schedule. Just FYI fellas his cholesterol is like that cause he is buried. Blew up his HCT too in just 6 weeks, thats what happens when you inject that much T at once though.

Thanks mate.

So ignore the cholesterol. Mr dr isn't a TRT specialist. So my knowledge is what we're going on. When it comes to full blood panels and stuff though, i defer to the wisdom of you guys.

[IncreaseMyT]

tell them you want every 2 or 3 week injections. So like 300mg every 2 weeks.

Bet your HDL comes up

[krugerr]

tell them you want every 2 or 3 week injections. So like 300mg every 2 weeks. Bet your HDL comes up

Hmm using undecoanate ?
As UK doctors are a bit crap. Protocol is daily gel or Nebido.

[IncreaseMyT]

Hmm using undecoanate ?
As UK doctors are a bit crap. Protocol is daily gel or Nebido.

Yes tell them you want to do your nebido injections once every two weeks. Tell them the injection protocol they have you on is obviously risky, just look at your labs.

If they say no tell them you want both and use the cream when your TT plummets from the Nebido.

[krugerr]

Yes tell them you want to do your nebido injections once every two weeks. Tell them the injection protocol they have you on is obviously risky, just look at your labs. If they say no tell them you want both and use the cream when your TT plummets from the Nebido.

Thanks mate. I'll report back once i speak to him.

Probably book myself some 4 weekly blood tests to keeps track of it.

Sent from my iPhone using App

[Mr.BB]

You should have done the booster shot like Kel said, and you probably need to space it to 10 weeks.

How do you feel on it?

[krugerr]

You should have done the booster shot like Kel said, and you probably need to space it to 10 weeks. How do you feel on it?

Despite what the levels say. I feel much better as I've been documenting in my blog. Libido back, feeling more confident etc.

Maybe doc will offer me a booster now and a drip to10 week protocol.
I'd prefer to stay on Nebido if possible as it's very convenient. We'll see.

Appreciate all the feedback guys!

Sent from my iPhone using App

[IncreaseMyT]

You should have done the booster shot like Kel said, and you probably need to space it to 10 weeks.

How do you feel on it?

hahahahaha

How do you feel on it? Look at his labs how do you think he feels lol I can't with you today bro.

[IncreaseMyT]

Sir your cholesterol is out of whack, your blood cell mass is rising and your TT levels are basically that of a castrated man...................BUT how do you feel? lol

[krugerr]

Sir your cholesterol is out of whack, your blood cell mass is rising and your TT levels are basically that of a castrated man...................BUT how do you feel? lol

If you don't want to play nice then take it to PM

At this point I'll take any and all advice. I can read the results, but I can't interpret it like you guys. I see suppressed LH/FSH and see that the test is in my body. But I see FT/TT is low so that's confusing. Plus other results are whacked. It's these all together that probably paint a bigger picture that I can't see.


Thanks for all that are contributing.

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[Back In Black]

Mate you should absolutely insist your quack refers you to an endo or urologist as he has no idea. At least you should get regular bloodwork

The insert and the nebido website states a booster is required. It might or might not be too late for that now but it would/should keep your levels more stable.

You know I love my nebido, I have a shot every 11 weeks currently and everything is in range. No doubt I get a little spike in test and e2 a week or 2 after my shot but it's minimal, I have no need for an ai and get no noticeable side effects.

IMT, nebido isn't used in the states but you get aveed on a different dosing protocol and size of injection. You can't just poo poo something because you believe levels will be all over the place because it's 1g of test. Sadly the OP is being treated by a quack not an expert which is probably why his numbers stink. At the stage of those tests he is 1g of test down on what he should have had so of course his test levels stink.

Kruger, insist you see an expert or insist you see another GP. The NHS are trying to save as much money as possible across the boar but it's no excuse for GP's to give you poor service. You can always file a complaint against him. TBH, go armed with what you know, as it will be more than your GP knows, he may well refer you anyway to save any embarrassment for a patient knowing more than the 'expert'.

[krugerr]

Mate you should absolutely insist your quack refers you to an endo or urologist as he has no idea. At least you should get regular bloodwork The insert and the nebido website states a booster is required. It might or might not be too late for that now but it would/should keep your levels more stable. You know I love my nebido, I have a shot every 11 weeks currently and everything is in range. No doubt I get a little spike in test and e2 a week or 2 after my shot but it's minimal, I have no need for an ai and get no noticeable side effects. IMT, nebido isn't used in the states but you get aveed on a different dosing protocol and size of injection. You can't just poo poo something because you believe levels will be all over the place because it's 1g of test. Sadly the OP is being treated by a quack not an expert which is probably why his numbers stink. At the stage of those tests he is 1g of test down on what he should have had so of course his test levels stink. Kruger, insist you see an expert or insist you see another GP. The NHS are trying to save as much money as possible across the boar but it's no excuse for GP's to give you poor service. You can always file a complaint against him. TBH, go armed with what you know, as it will be more than your GP knows, he may well refer you anyway to save any embarrassment for a patient knowing more than the 'expert'.

BiB, thanks very much for that feedback brother. Very helpful. I saw an Endo once who basically wrote a letter to my GP to say that Nebido should be used.

I'll keep you posted.

<CALayer: 0x8644830>

[Back In Black]

Do you have a copy of the letter? I got a copy of mine detailing the booster, shots every 10-12 weeks and what bloodwork and when. If you don't have a copy get your doc to give you one.

[krugerr]

Do you have a copy of the letter? I got a copy of mine detailing the booster, shots every 10-12 weeks and what bloodwork and when. If you don't have a copy get your doc to give you one.

BIB - THE endo basicallu wrote a letter to my Dr saying that if another blood test revealed low levels, to administer TRT. Snippit attached.

[Back In Black]

Well, it says get re-referred if required..........

[IncreaseMyT]

IMT, nebido isn't used in the states but you get aveed on a different dosing protocol and size of injection. You can't just poo poo something because you believe levels will be all over the place because it's 1g of test.

I can poo poo on it all I want, I have submitted ample evidence in other threads on why every 6 or 10 week schedules are:

DOWNRIGHT DANGEROUS

And guess what? These labs PROVE it.

So when I see a bunch of people pushing a shitty injection protocol, I am going to let the OP know whether you like or not ok?

Why? Because unlike all the Nebido pimps I care about his health and wellness.

This has nothing to do with the OP, I am trying to help the OP. I gave two solutions to his problem. Just because you don't understand why what he is doing is dangerous doesn't mean I need to sugar coat it for anyone.

Thanks for the opinion though.

[Back In Black]

I can poo poo on it all I want, I have submitted ample evidence in other threads on why every 6 or 10 week schedules are:

DOWNRIGHT DANGEROUS

And guess what? These labs PROVE it.

So when I see a bunch of people pushing a shitty injection protocol, I am going to let the OP know whether you like or not ok?

Why? Because unlike all the Nebido pimps I care about his health and wellness.

This has nothing to do with the OP, I am trying to help the OP. I gave two solutions to his problem. Just because you don't understand why what he is doing is dangerous doesn't mean I need to sugar coat it for anyone.

Thanks for the opinion though.

Well, I'm certainly not going through all your posts to search for this 'ample evidence' but feel free to repost it so I can read why thousands of people over the world (including myself) are being treated incorrectly.

[IncreaseMyT]

why thousands of people over the world (including myself) are being treated incorrectly.

Not just incorrectly, downright awful. Its a marketing gimmick. They did the same thing with Sustanon in the 70's.

Summary and Conclusion

(after these were done with threads on Nebido, if you want to risk your health with every 10 week injection schedules go for it)

1. Mr BB you claimed that every 10 week injections of Nebido were safe and effective. IMT highly disagrees. As we said earlier in the thread if one were to attain steady state levels and then do an injection of 1,000 mg your TT would hit 7,000 ng/dl. We stand by this statement.

2. Mr BB you posted a mapping table of TT levels of men on every 10 week TU injections. We did not realize you were never trying to reach steady state, that did not even come to mind because the whole goal of TRT is to attain and maintain steady state levels similar to eugonadal production. Your table clearly illustrates the negative effect of 10 week intervals. Patients falling into the 200 ng/dl range after being at 1200 ng/dl is a recipe for disaster. If you want this same effect simply inject TC 300mg every 3-4 weeks. Your peak and trough levels would be roughly the same as the table. (talk to a doc)

3. Mr BB earlier you posted an archaic table claiming to illustrate half-lives of certain esters such as testosterone enanthate. I am not sure if you are aware but the community has understood that is completely false for years now and we and the communities that allow us to post work tirelessly to educate men and the physicians that treat them, that enanthate and cypionate are actually 5-6 day esters. Spreading misinformation that these esters have 2 week half-lives plunges this community and TRT itself back into the stone age.

4. If one were to do TU injections IMT would guess that 300-400mg every 21 days would reach steady state and stay within optimal physiological range. (talk to a doc )

Before you showed that mapping table I had no clue anyone would be stupid enough to let someone bottom out like that before administering the next shot, but I guess that was the 1 thing we were wrong about here.

You also have creams as an option, or change your administration schedule.

Hope this helps.

http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...ml#post7188408

[Mr.BB]

do an injection of 1,000 mg your TT would hit 7,000 ng/dl. We stand by this statement.

Thanks for making me laugh a bit more, actually need it today

[IncreaseMyT]

Thanks for making me laugh a bit more, actually need it today

Well I didn't know I was dealing with amateurs, i tried putting myself in their shoes to imagine what would happen if I were actually stupid enough to try something like a 10 week injection schedule. I never claimed to have tried it.

Then I realized you were never trying to even attain steady state, so injection was like starting TRT all over again.......so if thats your idea of TRT I can have a laugh at that.

Just look at OPs blood work....... nuff said.

[krugerr]

Thanks for making me laugh a bit more, actually need it today

I injected 1000mg/4ml Nebido on 3rd March.

1st April:
Free test - 9.8 nmol/L
Total test - 225 ng/dl

So that was 4 weeks after injection and TT was not even close to the 7000 you said IMT. But then it's barely out of the LowT threshold either. I would have expected it to be higher.

<OS_nw_path_evaluator: 0xcd79160>

[IncreaseMyT]

I injected 1000mg/4ml Nebido on 3rd March.

1st April:
Free test - 9.8 nmol/L
Total test - 225 ng/dl

So that was 4 weeks after injection and TT was not even close to the 7000 you said IMT. But then it's barely out of the LowT threshold either. I would have expected it to be higher.

<OS_nw_path_evaluator: 0xcd79160>

Listen everyone is just a little confused and I will explain it one more time. If you had developed steady state levels, if your trough was coming in at 800, you would go to 5-7k on 1 shot of Nebido. Its not hard to figure out, once steady state levels are achieved you can use the rule of 10.

For instance if someone does 200mg per week of C or E their levels will hit 2k and drop to half of that 1k (in 7 days) plus or minus 100 or 200 points.

Then I realized the 10 week injection schedule is never develops steady state levels. If you do not know what that means look it up. it is the entire point of TRT.

So when you do a 10 week injection schedule you are flooding your body with testosterone, THEN already at week for your at 200 (wild swings like your in puberty). In the danger zone. The zone that affects your ability to manage blood sugar levels and cholesterol. This why your cholesterol is being affected, because of the low testosterone. Now if you were on a 10 week injection schedule you would still have 6 weeks to go!!!!! You would have low T for 6 weeks. This is bad, this increases your risk of dying, LITERALLY.

So the idea of TRT is to keep TRT within eugonadal range through peak and trough levels. Its less risky to go over than it use to bottom out like that.

So like I suggested ask your doctor to split the injections up, just ask whats the harm? Your not asking for more medication your just asking to split it up. This will keep your TT levels from EVER falling below 300.

If Nebido was smart they would make 3 different single dose ampules:

600mg

400mg

300mg

This would fit just about everyone. You could use the 600 for the booster shot and the 300 and 400 could be dosed every 2 - 4 weeks.

I challenge ANYONE to get their schedule switched and compare bloods, they will be much better and your HDL will come up. You will lower inflammation essentially.

[IncreaseMyT]

You guys are behind, here in the states we just went through this. Some doctors still do it.

On the bottle of Watson testosterone cypionate it says "inject 50-200 mg every 2 -4 weeks" We have seen labs when people do this and just like OP its not pretty.

Thats totally ridiculous, we have been working hard for years teaching doctors cypionate is a 7 day ester and needs to be dosed according to the half-life. The half life is about 7 days. SO at least once per week injections.

Undecanoate is AT MOST a 21 day ester.......SO why would you not dose at least every 21 days? No one is making sense I cant believe I even have to explain this.

TU DOES NOT have a 10 week half-life.

SOOO..... now you guys have to go out and educate your doctors like we have been doing in the states for 10 years.

[Back In Black]

Not just incorrectly, downright awful. Its a marketing gimmick. They did the same thing with Sustanon in the 70's.



http://forums.steroid.com/hormone-re...ml#post7188408

Sorry, the 'ample evidence' that you give in that thread appears to be your own idea that 10 week injections are dangerous. Forgive me if I missed a study you have quoted but I really can't see anything other than your own opinion.

It's funny that 10's of thousands of people are being treated inappropriately in your opinion yet most of those patients I bet have fairly steady levels. Sure there will be peaks and troughs but the spike isn't anywhere near as high as you outrageously claim and the troughs aren't that low either.

Yes undefinable may have a relatively short half life compared to the 10-12 week recommended dose but I am still well within range at 11 weeks. I believe the size of the globule created by the 4ml being injected slooooooowly has a bearing on this too.

Believe it's a marketing ploy all you want. Of course, you wouldn't try and use a marketing ploy like having a pic of a guy pulling his jacket apart a la superman suggesting your treatment will make a guy feel that way, now would you, lol.

[IncreaseMyT]

hahaha all the evidence I need is in this thread....... Look at the labs!!!! This thread is on par with everything I said in the last thread.

Im out do whatever you want, just post labs every now and then so I can have a chuckle.



IMT < ------- most knowledgable TRT clinic IN THE WORLD.

[Back In Black]

hahaha all the evidence I need is in this thread....... Look at the labs!!!! This thread is on par with everything I said in the last thread.

Im out do whatever you want, just post labs every now and then so I can have a chuckle.



IMT < ------- most knowledgable TRT clinic IN THE WORLD.

Well, if you actually read my earlier post I said his test will be low because he has missed a booster. A booster recommended which helps to get levels up, as they did in my case. Oh wait no, that's only recommended because they are marketing genius's. LMFAO.

[IncreaseMyT]

Well, if you actually read my earlier post I said his test will be low because he has missed a booster. A booster recommended which helps to get levels up, as they did in my case. Oh wait no, that's only recommended because they are marketing genius's. LMFAO.

If you even bothered to read the other thread I posted, you will see Mr BB posted a table of a bunch of men on every 10 week injections. By 40th day some men were already below 300. And due to know testing around day 35 its possible and likely they were there already at that time.

10 weeks is 70 days.

The half-life is 21 days, its just math not hard to figure out.

Sorry your having trouble with it.