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  1. #1
    Beetlegeuse's Avatar
    Beetlegeuse is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Q's RE hCG starting dose & rubber bung life

    I'm adding hCG to my TRT (Androgel ) on a trial run. I've been on TRT probably three years, and all that time I've been toying with the idea of adding hCG. The urgency got dialed up a notch a couple of months ago because I noticed the family jewels definitely were smaller. Maybe they had been shrinking all this time but it was happening so gradually it wasn't noticeable, but they're a couple of my favorite body parts and I admit I was a bit panicked by the realization. But I'm hoping for reversal of atrophy, as well as all the hormonal side-benefits, and I wouldn't object if a little extra endogenous Test comes along for the ride.

    Anyway, I've read the hCG stickies, and Dr. Crisler's papers, and based on Crisler's recommendation, I want to add a daily dose of 100IU of hCG to complement my (also daily) Androgel. Which leaves me with a couple of questions.

    First, since I've been on TRT for so long without it, should I boost the dosage for a bit to "kick-start" my nards? 100IU seems an awfully small dose, maybe adequate for "maintenance," or if the hCG and TRT had been started together, but I'm second-guessing his advice in a case like mine, where the testicular atrophy had a head start.

    Do you think there's any point to a few "booster" doses before settling in on 100IU? Or is there no need because 100IU is adequate, even if it takes longer to get there. If it could help, how much, and for how long? Crisler recommends 250IU every third day for those why are pinning, so that's one alternative I've considered, even though I'm using topical Test. I've also read about the dangers of over-stimulating and desensitizing and what-not from too large a dose, which I gather is one of Crisler's objectives with the daily 100IU dosing. And you guys don't charge much for your advice, so I thought I'd ask.

    The second question regards the durability of the rubber bung in the hCG vial. If I'm doing 100IU a day, and the stuff has a 60-day shelf life (refrigerated), the 5000IU vials seem just about perfect to my needs since they would give me 50 days of 100IU doses without running afoul of the 60-day shelf life. But that gives me questions about the durability of the rubber bung in the vial. Even from a tiny little 31-gauge needles, 50 piercings seems like a whole lot of poking. Does anyone have experience with using the same bung so many times? Or anybody ever had a bung fail before you were finished with the vial? (How'd you deal with that?) Do I risk causing so much damage to it that I run a higher than normal chance of contamination entering through the channels left by the needles in the rubber?

  2. #2
    ryobi1 is offline Associate Member
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    why would you 100 a day, that seems pretty excessive,
    have know idea what your daily gel dose is in mgs but
    i am sure its pretty low, i would think every 3 days or even
    once a week would suffice, 200 iu's...
    i pin 100 mg's test a week, the day before i pin 200 iu's hcg .
    the boys are fine....even though you haven't taken it before
    i'm sure it will improve your condition quickly

  3. #3
    Beetlegeuse's Avatar
    Beetlegeuse is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    A brief follow-up. I started out on 100IUs/day and haven't changed dosage. Within a month after starting on the hCG , my nards were fully inflated again. They definitely are as taut (and as large) as I ever remember them being.

    I'm only on four pumps of 1.62% Androgel /day for TRT, so my 'best-case' total Test normally is only in the 400s. When I started on the hCG, I got the worst case of acne on my upper torso I ever had had in my life, which I presume was because the hCG increased production of natural Test. My mood also improved, my sex drive went up, athletic performance (bicycling) improved, and I started shedding weight (I didn't change my diet but I was able to work out longer due to added stamina). Plusses all the way around. So in my case, it wasn't necessary to start out with an increased dose to get the ball(s) rolling (pun intended).

    As for the bung, I've been through several 10ml vials now and none of them had any problem surviving 50 withdrawals with a 31-gauge needle, plus a couple of penetrations from the larger bore needle I use in the transferring of the reconstituted solution.

    This also has been my first experience self-injecting. I have to dodge scar tissue scattered across my abdomen because I once took a trip through a car windshield, and I still occasionally hit a small bleeder, but scars and small blood vessels aside, the 31-gauge insulin syringes are pretty close to painless.

  4. #4
    Youthful55guy is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetlegeuse View Post
    First, since I've been on TRT for so long without it, should I boost the dosage for a bit to "kick-start" my nards? 100IU seems an awfully small dose, maybe adequate for "maintenance," or if the hCG and TRT had been started together, but I'm second-guessing his advice in a case like mine, where the testicular atrophy had a head start.

    Do you think there's any point to a few "booster" doses before settling in on 100IU?

    Does anyone have experience with using the same bung so many times? Or anybody ever had a bung fail before you were finished with the vial? (How'd you deal with that?) Do I risk causing so much damage to it that I run a higher than normal chance of contamination entering through the channels left by the needles in the rubber?
    Regarding 100 IU per day dose, which ends up being about 700 IU per week, this is an excellent starting dose. In my experience, there is no real advantage to daily dosing compared to breaking it up into 3 doses per week (e.g., 250 IU on M, W, F). Whatever works for you. This dose seems to be about right for preserving/restoring testicular volume. If fertility is your goal, you may need to bump that up to around 1000 IU per week. There's a good paper that shows that this dose will restore intratesticular testosterone (ITT) values back to normal in healthy young men receiving relatively high doses of testosterone eth. Normal ITT levels are necessary for normal spermatozoa maturation, so it makes for a good marker of fertility. However, for testicular volume, you can get by with lower doses.

    Regarding loading doses, I'm opposed to pretty much any form of hormonal loading dose. hormones do not work in isolation. The effect cascades throughout dozens of hormones throughout the body. Loading doses just throw things out of whack and make it difficult to understand your response to the treatment. With TRT, starting small and working up as labs dictate is always your best choice.

    Regarding the bung on the HCG vial stopper. I've been following a similar procedure for over 5 1/2 years and I've never experienced a problem. As long as the vial is properly refrigerated, you should be fine. I agree, that 5,000 IU vials are about perfect for our purpose and that's why I tend to use them instead of larger 10,000 IU vials, even though it's cheaper to buy in quantity. You might want to consider reconstituting the HCG in bacteriostatic (preserved) injection saline rather than non-preserved. This will help keep the bugs from growing.

  5. #5
    kelkel's Avatar
    kelkel is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    Regarding 100 IU per day dose, which ends up being about 700 IU per week, this is an excellent starting dose. In my experience, there is no real advantage to daily dosing compared to breaking it up into 3 doses per week (e.g., 250 IU on M, W, F). Whatever works for you. This dose seems to be about right for preserving/restoring testicular volume. If fertility is your goal, you may need to bump that up to around 1000 IU per week. There's a good paper that shows that this dose will restore intratesticular testosterone (ITT) values back to normal in healthy young men receiving relatively high doses of testosterone eth. Normal ITT levels are necessary for normal spermatozoa maturation, so it makes for a good marker of fertility. However, for testicular volume, you can get by with lower doses.
    I've yet to see the point in daily dosing as well. I know several guys (notable in the industry) that swear by it though. I just don't see the point or need for it when you can easily get by with less, as duly noted in study you referenced which I'm very familiar with.
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  6. #6
    Beetlegeuse's Avatar
    Beetlegeuse is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Thank you for your inputs.

    I bought a couple of ounces of benzyl alcohol along with my initial stockpile of glassware and I've been blending my own bacteriostatic water (with locally-procured distilled water) from the start.

    I'd been thinking about larger doses less frequently since I read that hCG takes about five days to clear the system. Less pricking, fewer syringes, same (or nearly same) effect. Makes sense. So based on your advice I've changed to 200IU every other day. If that goes as well as expected, I might extend it to every third.

    kelkel, I get your drift. Thanks for the heads-up.

  7. #7
    Youthful55guy is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beetlegeuse View Post
    Thank you for your inputs.

    I bought a couple of ounces of benzyl alcohol along with my initial stockpile of glassware and I've been blending my own bacteriostatic water (with locally-procured distilled water) from the start.

    I'd been thinking about larger doses less frequently since I read that hCG takes about five days to clear the system. Less pricking, fewer syringes, same (or nearly same) effect. Makes sense. So based on your advice I've changed to 200IU every other day. If that goes as well as expected, I might extend it to every third.

    kelkel, I get your drift. Thanks for the heads-up.
    I'm not so sure that's a good idea. The water should be normal saline and autoclaved sterile. The preservative is simply added to slow down growth of accidently introduced bugs, but the solution should be sterile from the start. Distilled water is not sterile. Sterile, preserved injection saline is inexpensive and readily available over the internet. I happen to get mine through Bacteriostatic Water, but there's lots of other sources.

    Your dose and schedule looks good.

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