Low Test value: Help!

[TestoSuper]

Hallo everyone,
I've done blood work in this days and my total test value is very low (2.5 ng / ml)
I do not know how to explain this thing and I'm in disbelief because I have absolutly no symptoms of low testosterone (no sexual problems, no lack of libido, the testicles are in good size, in the morning always steel erections) I really do not know how to explain this thing!
A month ago my value was about 5 ng/ml (at the end of 8 weeks of PCT with clomid 25 mg / day)
I'm a bit worried because my blood work are good when I'm taking clomid, but if I'm not taking it my values are very minimal..
Is possible that last Deca cycle (400 mg/week x 9 week finished in January 2016) keeps my HPTA still suppressed until now??
It is possible that the bloodwork values are wrong?
If I change the testing laboratory might have different results?

[TestoSuper]

Nobody?

[Back In Black]

Nobody?

Patience. It's the weekend.

Lay out your full cycle and pct and the lab range for your test. Did you get any other values tested?

[Mr.BB]

Deca and tren are very supressive.

Deciding to use them you should be ready for this outcome. If you are young you will need to do another PCT to try and get your HPTA back, for this you will need to stay away from steroids for some time.

The alternative, as you probably know, is TRT.

[TestoSuper]

Patience. It's the weekend.

Lay out your full cycle and pct and the lab range for your test. Did you get any other values tested?

My last cycle was:

Test E 600 mg / week x 10
Deca 400 mg / week x 9
Dbol 40 mg / day x 4
Hcg During entire cycle 250 ui x 2 a week
adex 0.25 EOD

PCT: Clomid only (no nolvadex) 100 50 50 50 started 2 weeks after last Test E inject
I have finished this cycle in february 2016 !!

for 3 months no drugs, totally natural -

at end of May Test values very low (under 3 ng)

I did a second PCT Clomid at 25 mg / day from june to july (8 weeks)

and now, 6 weeks after end of this second PCT my total Test is 2.5 ng!

The range of my lab tests are 2:49 to 8:36 ng / ml

No for the moment I have not tested other values! total test only!

[TestoSuper]

Deca and tren are very supressive.

Deciding to use them you should be ready for this outcome. If you are young you will need to do another PCT to try and get your HPTA back, for this you will need to stay away from steroids for some time.

The alternative, as you probably know, is TRT.

Yes I'm thinking to not use deca for the next cycles ..
I fear that the TRT is further suppressive ... or not?

[Mr.BB]

TRT is total shutdown, you can use clomid as a form of TRT if you feel good on it.

I personnaly also dont feel so bad on low test for the first few months, but after sometime you will start to have symptoms.

What is your age? And where are you located?

[TestoSuper]

TRT is total shutdown, you can use clomid as a form of TRT if you feel good on it.

I personnaly also dont feel so bad on low test for the first few months, but after sometime you will start to have symptoms.

What is your age? And where are you located?

I also think a lot better with clomid possibly..
I'm 34 years old, 4 cycle in total, located in Europe..

[Mr.BB]

Most countries in Europe are very reserved about TRT specially through the national health systems, if you can pay out of your pocket or have insurance its easier.

You can also be somewhat upfront about usage as medical records are private (not as in US), if you talk to a private andrologist about your problem he will probably put you on nebido after some testing. Of course you will have to have symptoms (or lie about it) and be ready for the lecture about steroid usage.

But IMO if you feel good on clomid why not continue with it. You can even try to lower dosage and check if its still effective, maybe 25mg EOD.

Post your bloodworks here so others can advise your further.

[TestoSuper]

Most countries in Europe are very reserved about TRT specially through the national health systems, if you can pay out of your pocket or have insurance its easier.

You can also be somewhat upfront about usage as medical records are private (not as in US), if you talk to a private andrologist about your problem he will probably put you on nebido after some testing. Of course you will have to have symptoms (or lie about it) and be ready for the lecture about steroid usage.

But IMO if you feel good on clomid why not continue with it. You can even try to lower dosage and check if its still effective, maybe 25mg EOD.

Post your bloodworks here so others can advise your further.

Right for TRT I have to get privately because with the national health system is not possible..
however, I think to exclude Deca next few cycles and possibly I will continue with clomid at minimal dose after PCT..
I can not post my bloodworks because I have viewed results online !!
Thanks Mr. BB for your time and advices!

[TestoSuper]

Hallo guys,
this is my bloodwork results today:

P-Homocysteine 5 < 15
LH 5.5 1.7 - 8.6
FSH 3.8 1.5 - 12.4
E2 <5 26 - 61
DHEA-S 194 80 - 560
PRL 20.88* 4.04 - 15.20
S-Testosterone 2.68 2.49 - 8.36
TSH 2.41 0.27 - 4.20

What do you think about?

[Mr.BB]

HPTA restart doesnt work very good while prolactin is elevated.

You need to do some caber before attempting a restart.

[Mr.BB]

If it was me I would do:

1-4 dostinex 0,25mg 2x week
1-2 HCG 500ui 2x week
3-6 Clomid 50mg + nolva 2mg ED

Bloodwork after 6 weeks

[TestoSuper]

Ok, I have Clomid, Cabaser and Hcg on hand now.. I have not nolvadex...is it strictly necessary?

[Mr.BB]

Strictly no, but... Why you need both Nolva and Clomid for PCT

On a restart you should make sure meds are pharma.

[TestoSuper]

very interesting article ..
thank you!

[Slacker78]

Mr.BB, when you advice to do TRT, do you mean to enter in it for all life ? Do you suspect a permanent damage maybe ???

[kelkel]

If it was me I would do:

1-4 dostinex 0,25mg 2x week
1-2 HCG 500ui 2x week
3-6 Clomid 50mg + nolva 2mg ED

Bloodwork after 6 weeks

Viable plan right there.

[Mr.BB]

Mr.BB, when you advice to do TRT, do you mean to enter in it for all life ? Do you suspect a permanent damage maybe ???

I didnt advice, just stated the options.

But I can say my opinion, IMO cycling 19-nors is very harsh on HPTA, sure there might be ppl that are able to recover but majority will have slow/difficult recovery.

[Slacker78]

I didnt advice, just stated the options.

But I can say my opinion, IMO cycling 19-nors is very harsh on HPTA, sure there might be ppl that are able to recover but majority will have slow/difficult recovery.

Yes, i know it about. But it seems to be that we are talking about that even at low dosages in a perfect cycle, there could be the risk to do never return to physiological hormonal attitude, so a permanent damage to HPTA axis. In this case, individual will need to enter in TRT for the rest of its life..... and this is not a good thing, especially if we are talking about young people... don't you agree ?

[Mr.BB]

If you want to live the lifestyle you are going to end up in TRT. Again, some ppl are able to do it, trying not to generalize too much.

Yes, of course I agree, TRT for young ppl is stupid. Unless you are planning a carreer out of your physique.

When you are young you dont know how your life is going to unfold, to make such a permanent decision. Once you get a more stable life family and career wise, its easier IMO.

[Slacker78]

If you want to live the lifestyle you are going to end up in TRT. Again, some ppl are able to do it, trying not to generalize too much.

Yes, of course I agree, TRT for young ppl is stupid. Unless you are planning a carreer out of your physique.

When you are young you dont know how your life is going to unfold, to make such a permanent decision. Once you get a more stable life family and career wise, its easier IMO.

In other words, TRT is the decision who wants to extend its physical lifestyle as long as possible. Isn't it ?

Backing to issues of TestoSuper, it seems that there are still DECA metabolites in his blood stream ... or there's an altered receptors regulations ( progestin receptor ). The strange thing as i talked with him in pvt, he feels good under sexual drive profile and strength in gym. He has no particulary symptoms.... even with E2 < 5, he should feel something is not good.

As LH seems good, GnRH seems to be secreted even it prolactin is over the normal range ( high prolactin blocks GnRH secretion ). Test is in the minimum so the problem could be related to Leyden cells responsiveness. But prolactin and E2 values are strange.....

[TestoSuper]

I cannot really explain my values ... LH and FSH are ok, and Total Test very low ...
it is possible that prolactin inhibits total testosterone directly and not LH???

[JKW]

Mr BB I read the post by the link you provided. If I am doing TRT should I ask for clomid since I am doing nolva currently? I saw Doc on the 1st I will try to get BW results.

[Slacker78]

I cannot really explain my values ... LH and FSH are ok, and Total Test very low ...
it is possible that prolactin inhibits total testosterone directly and not LH???

That's why is important do a blood work before cycling. Each one, has its levels of hormonal balance. For example, your physiological levels for your body, for example would be LH around 6.50 to raise testosterone to 3.80/4; for another one could be enough LH 5.5. to have testosterone at that value. In your case, prolactin higher with that value, suppress a bit the GnRH which in turn do not stimulate pituitary gland to secrete enough LH to raise Testosterone to an higher values. It not that you go over some hormonal value and all the "machine" is stopped... increase a bit one, decrease a bit another one an so on..... My guess is that you have still DECA metabolites in your blood stream and that is normal. For this reason among cycles, it would be needed to let pass a long time to wait your physiological activity to resume completely. For someone it quicker, for others lesser. You can do as Mr. BB suggested you to increase the speed recovery. Do a blood work after 6 weeks and give time to your body.

[Chicagotarsier]

That's why is important do a blood work before cycling. Each one, has its levels of hormonal balance. For example, your physiological levels for your body, for example would be LH around 6.50 to raise testosterone to 3.80/4; for another one could be enough LH 5.5. to have testosterone at that value. In your case, prolactin higher with that value, suppress a bit the GnRH which in turn do not stimulate pituitary gland to secrete enough LH to raise Testosterone to an higher values. It not that you go over some hormonal value and all the "machine" is stopped... increase a bit one, decrease a bit another one an so on..... My guess is that you have still DECA metabolites in your blood stream and that is normal. For this reason among cycles, it would be needed to let pass a long time to wait your physiological activity to resume completely. For someone it quicker, for others lesser. You can do as Mr. BB suggested you to increase the speed recovery. Do a blood work after 6 weeks and give time to your body.

Best post ever. Instead of parroting "Test Only First Cycle" this is what should be repeated over and over. Not having starting labs makes it all guesswork. Personally your LH and FSH levels are what I have and I am Primary Hypogonadal. Past is past but this post is worth more than a slice of fried gold in my opinion.

That's why is important do a blood work before cycling.

[TestoSuper]

That's why is important do a blood work before cycling. Each one, has its levels of hormonal balance. For example, your physiological levels for your body, for example would be LH around 6.50 to raise testosterone to 3.80/4; for another one could be enough LH 5.5. to have testosterone at that value. In your case, prolactin higher with that value, suppress a bit the GnRH which in turn do not stimulate pituitary gland to secrete enough LH to raise Testosterone to an higher values. It not that you go over some hormonal value and all the "machine" is stopped... increase a bit one, decrease a bit another one an so on..... My guess is that you have still DECA metabolites in your blood stream and that is normal. For this reason among cycles, it would be needed to let pass a long time to wait your physiological activity to resume completely. For someone it quicker, for others lesser. You can do as Mr. BB suggested you to increase the speed recovery. Do a blood work after 6 weeks and give time to your body.

ok, everything very clear. Scientific and complete explanation!
I admit my mistake to not have done bloodwork immediately before cycles, I've ever done it some weeks after cycles only, and when everything was ok I've not repeated bloodwork immediately before next cycle.
Anyway, I think I will start 4 weeks of caber only, low dosage 0.25 mg 2 x week.
At the end I will blood tests again.
If prolactin will go down and automatically LH and total test will rise, it will be ok...
If not I will start a new recovery as suggested and take more time..

[TestoSuper]

Guys, another question: E2 <5 in a range 26 - 61 .. have you ever had experience with these low values also?
I suspect that we underestimate the power of arimidex ?!
0.25 mg Arimidex Eod during an entire Test cycle at 500/750 mg per week maximum, are not too much?
maybe it would be enough 0.25 mg 2 x week?!?
In your opinion, there could be a relationship between E2 so low and other hormonal values?

[hammerheart]

ok, everything very clear. Scientific and complete explanation!
I admit my mistake to not have done bloodwork immediately before cycles, I've ever done it some weeks after cycles only, and when everything was ok I've not repeated bloodwork immediately before next cycle.
Anyway, I think I will start 4 weeks of caber only, low dosage 0.25 mg 2 x week.
At the end I will blood tests again.
If prolactin will go down and automatically LH and total test will rise, it will be ok...
If not I will start a new recovery as suggested and take more time..

Caber is a powerful antiprolactinemic, it will lower PRL to a few ng/ml.

I'm curious about the results, keep us updated.

[Slacker78]

This morning i talked with my friend and he had the same problem using DECA at 500mg/w for a cycle of 10 weeks. He used only caber for 4 weeks ( but he used 0,50mg twice at week ) and he did the blood work at 6th week. Prolactin went back in range and test increased as expected. Using DECA, often, doing a little period with low Caber dosage it's almost a MUST to speed up prolactin adjustment. Remember: with high prolactin, your testosterone will be always lower than normal. So, do as Mr. BB suggested and Update us! I'm sure after this month, your Test will be good !

[Slacker78]

Best post ever. Instead of parroting "Test Only First Cycle" this is what should be repeated over and over. Not having starting labs makes it all guesswork. Personally your LH and FSH levels are what I have and I am Primary Hypogonadal. Past is past but this post is worth more than a slice of fried gold in my opinion.

That's why is important do a blood work before cycling.

ChicagoTarsier, are you primarily Hypognadal due to AAS ? I don't think so... ?

[hammerheart]

In other words, TRT is the decision who wants to extend its physical lifestyle as long as possible. Isn't it ?

Let's make the topic loud....


Why so interested in TRT, lately? If I'm not being indiscreet .

[Slacker78]

Let's make the topic loud....


Why so interested in TRT, lately? If I'm not being indiscreet .

First of all, simply knowledge. Second, it would be good to extend personal healthy life.

[TestoSuper]

Caber is a powerful antiprolactinemic, it will lower PRL to a few ng/ml.

I'm curious about the results, keep us updated.

yes sure!

[TestoSuper]

This morning i talked with my friend and he had the same problem using DECA at 500mg/w for a cycle of 10 weeks. He used only caber for 4 weeks ( but he used 0,50mg twice at week ) and he did the blood work at 6th week. Prolactin went back in range and test increased as expected. Using DECA, often, doing a little period with low Caber dosage it's almost a MUST to speed up prolactin adjustment. Remember: with high prolactin, your testosterone will be always lower than normal. So, do as Mr. BB suggested and Update us! I'm sure after this month, your Test will be good !

Good what you tell me satisfy me a lot..
I hope that after these four weeks everything is ok.
In any case that it will forever be a hard instruction to do bloodwork more frequently and to use caber with deca always !!

[Mr.BB]

Guys, another question: E2 <5 in a range 26 - 61 .. have you ever had experience with these low values also?
I suspect that we underestimate the power of arimidex ?!
0.25 mg Arimidex Eod during an entire Test cycle at 500/750 mg per week maximum, are not too much?
maybe it would be enough 0.25 mg 2 x week?!?
In your opinion, there could be a relationship between E2 so low and other hormonal values?

It is normal in steroid induced hypogonadism for e2 to follow T. If you think about it, low free T, lower aromatization possible, lower E2.

I've had similar results in BW, quite a few in fact.

[TestoSuper]

It is normal in steroid induced hypogonadism for e2 to follow T. If you think about it, low free T, lower aromatization possible, lower E2.

I've had similar results in BW, quite a few in fact.

Ok, so low e2 is a direct logical consequence of low test ... clear!
Then I do not worry too much about this e2 value..

[Slacker78]

Ok, so low e2 is a direct logical consequence of low test ... clear!
Then I do not worry too much about this e2 value..

Image that low variations in Testosterone presence in blood stream, cause great variations in E2 level and so on for all hormonal feedbacks. It's a logarithmic thing.

[TestoSuper]

Image that low variations in Testosterone presence in blood stream, cause great variations in E2 level and so on for all hormonal feedbacks. It's a logarithmic thing.

I understand ...
I have to admit that the valuable informations I have learned in this forum I have not even had from specialist andrologist..
(when it is rightly said that the concrete practice is the best teaching...nothing truer)
so great and very helpful forum!!

[Slacker78]

I understand ...
I have to admit that the valuable informations I have learned in this forum I have not even had from specialist andrologist..
(when it is rightly said that the concrete practice is the best teaching...nothing truer)
so great and very helpful forum!!

Yes, that's true. We like to inform and studying continuously. I guess andrologist know these things too, but they don't loose their time to explain them to you....