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I have set out to make generic Androgel by dissolving base testosterone NE and combining with gel or creme, but when I search for advice on solvents and recipes all I get is instructions for injectables. This seems strange. I know injectables are more efficient but as topical are so common for prescribed treatments why am I seeing this?
I believe producing something topical would be far more difficult and much less effective. No one would bother just make injectable.
That's sort of what I imagined but surely there a lot of people like me who don't like injections, and anyway, if i did not mind injection I could get the stuff for free from my doctor.Quote:
Originally Posted by redz
With topicals it's a crapshoot. Absorption rate is highly variable between individuals and it changes over time. It's also messy and disruptive to your schedule to have to time it around showers, getting dress, and even sex. Beyond all that, it's expensive as #$!! because they are proprietary formulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
With injections you know exactly how much T you are getting. They can be taken at any time that works with your schedule, and they are dirt cheep as far as drugs go.
With regard to not liking injections. My only advice is get over it. I honestly cannot understand how anyone can balk at using a 28G 1/2 in needle twice a week to feel normal. I don't mean to sound hard ass, but really it's not that difficult.
Finally, with regard to making up your own topical, I'd really think seriously about that. Transdermal drug delivery is a science. It takes a team of engineers and scientists to develop those formulations to drive drugs through the skin. Even then, as discussed earlier, absorption is a crapshoot.
Thanks. As of now I have some economical home made transdermal gel ($300 Androgel 1.65% equivalent cost to me $4.00!) to finish testing, and so far that seems to work just fine, but if the outcome is not as expected I'll go for the injections that my insurance covers 100%. On a personal note I love the smell of that alcohol gel and it's a good feeling to be using something you designed and made your self.
Not worth messing yourself up you will regret this.
The novelty of the aroma eventually wears off. About the same time it starts being a pain in the ass that you can't put on a shirt for 20 minutes.
Injections of some sort are pretty much inevitable. If you use topicals long enough without pinning hCG, your balls will turn into raisins. And besides their utility as a recreation device, you don't want that because "the boys" are in charge of other health benefits (besides sperm count) that you'll lose if you don't keep 'em in working order with injections of hCG. And odds are you'll come closer to getting your $4 worth from that Test if you pin rather than rub.
This hCG is new to me I shall research. Any good links so I fully understand what you are saying. My urologist never said anything like this and I never knew there was a way to protect them balls!
your going to,be hard pressed to even,get the equivalent of pinning 100 mg a week with any amount of gel. it would require you to,basically dip yourself into,a tub of it.
butbi will guarantee this, the amount you'll be absorbing will shut you down.
can't reinvent the wheel here
As I said I am a newbi but I question the level of anti-gel sentiment. When I was using Androgel (1.65% at two pumps a day = 40mg) I got to therapeutic levels within 6 weeks. Maybe you are saying "my" gel will be much more inefficient than Androgel. That's likely as I'm still having solvent issues and wont be blood tested by doctor for a month. Also I don't know what you mean by "shut you down" for if you mean will stop all natural production does that not contradict them saying I will not get a good dose? Please understand my learning curb.Quote:
Originally Posted by m.hornbuckle
my bad I thought you were "cycling' with gel
1mg of IM test over a period of time will shut you down.
its all negative feed back loop.
Sent from my LG-M327 using Tapatalk
Yes, any effective form of exogenous testosterone (gel or injected) will shut down endogenous production pretty much completely. That's why we layer in HCG as per previous discussions. I don't mean to discourage you from your endeavors, but having been on TRT for over 6 years, I can say with all certainty that it needs to be a sustainable program. One that is easy to administer and gets reliable results. For me, that's 0.2 to 0.25 mL T-cyp injected every 3 days with a 28G insulin syringe. Quick, easy, and painless. Since it's also doctor prescribed, it comes from the pharmacy ready to use. HCG is a little more of a hassle, as I have to mix it up about every 6 weeks, but that's manageable.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
If you believe you can sustain your self-compound of a T-gel for the rest of your life, then go for it. Whatever works!
Thanks and I'm just "playing" with the gel for now. Getting a kick out of it costing me $4 where my insurance, until they stoped covering it, was paying $315! What a joke US healthcare is. I'm very interested to ask my urologist (who did advise the self injections) why no stimulation to supliment replacement. Really appreciate all you guys input.
If you have children or females in your home. Be extra careful. I would switch to pinning if that wqs the case.
I use a needle a bit bigger than youthfulguy uses. I use a 23g and even that isnt too sore. The pain more comes from dumping 4ml of my testosterone in at the one time. Im on nebido hence why its such a massive quantity.
If you were on test cyp youd be pinning a minute amount. So feel free to use insulin pins.
Gels are messy and expensive. I wouldnt have accepted it as a form of treatment personally
Just a follow up comment. If you plan to use HCG, you will have to get over your fear of injections. It MUST be injected. Don't be fooled by the internet scams for sublingual products. HCG is not absorbed orally or sublingually. They are just lining their pocketbooks with your hard earned cash.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
It's not just that your 'T' numbers go up and that's an end of it. There are cascading side-effects to using exogenous Test, even at the modest doses used under TRT. Besides your nards shriveling up (which is a virtual certainty, unless you take measures to prevent it), there also is the potential for acne, hair growth (in places where you don't want it), hair loss (in places where you do want it), and you could grow boobs. No shit, you can grow tits from taking too much Test.
There are measures to safeguard against most of those things, but those require that you be informed. Everybody has different goals for TRT and everybody responds differently so you've got to be the author of your own plan and make adjustments to it based on your knowledge of the process and according to your individual responses.
The stickies on this forum are extensive but those guys didn't write them just to hear themselves type. They're giving you free access to an absolutely huge base of hard-won knowledge to help you prevent yourself making the same mistakes as many who came before you. You don't necessarily need to know everything that's in them but most everything you need is in there.
Fortunately for us TRT guys, ours is a less intricate process than what's used by the bodybuilders, weight lifters and performance athletes both because they are using substantially larger doses of AASs, and because they "cycle" on and off it, both for health reasons and for the efficacy of the steroids. They potentially can stop using and go back to "normal." TRT, OTOH, is for life. In most cases anyway. TRT should be your last resort after all other medical measures have failed to correct the mechanical cause of your hypogonadism. In other words, you're not 'fixable' so you're using pharmaceuticals to replace what mother nature has taken away. But it still could wreck your fertility, despite the best efforts of yourself and science.
Low T can cause ED, diabetes, obesity, osteoporosis, depression, and it has been associated with heart disease. Men with Low T on average die younger than men with normal Test levels. The alternative is beginning a life-long program of TRT and being prepared to deal with those cascading side-effects if they arise, but still being lean and muscular and still waking up with morning wood when you're old and gray. Pick your poison.
To sum all of that up in three words: Read the Stickies.
EDIT:
So sayeth Austenite, and so mot it be:
Explanation of HPTA / Endocrine System & How Steroids Affect You
I started out loving transdermal. I used Androgel for 3-4 years and then my body decided to quit absorbing it. Even when I smeared it all over my legs, abs, chest, lats and shoulders my test #'s wouldn't get out of the 300s. My urologist said it happens and I switched to Testepel pellets since it fits better into my lifestyle. As others have mentioned, be careful who you're around when using it. At the time, I had young children and was strongly advised to not let them contact me where I had put the gel. Kinda hard to do with small kids. If it works for you great. However, it's not what I'd consider a delivery method that is consistent.
Thanks and I have good info to take to my urologist and i'm prepared if and when I move to injectables. For now, having found how easy and cheap it is to make transdermal gels (I now have a good formulation from a pharmacist) and having got a good supply of generic "androgel" in store I am set for a year or so, but expanding on my common knowledge has been MUCH APPRECIATED. Protecting my balls would be good but hCG is hard to find and restricted so don't know if I will be able to. Like athletes I am considering periods of 50% on and 50% off to protect efficacy and maybe that will help the gonads as well.
If you like the transdermal and check absorption with bloodwork then that’s fine. Basic absorption rate is at around 10%, and making your own gel isn’t that hard.
But do follow up with bloodwork to check if it actually works.
Odds are you’re gonna need injections eventually. And be better for it.
The gel can also contaminate others as Zeus hinted at. Be very careful with children. But it doesn’t matter much if they are exposed one time, even if you smeared cream directly on them. But repeated exposure, even if it isn’t that much, can over time be an issue.
Hcg needs to be injected and there’s no way around it.
Yes not all doctors prescribe it, but they really should offer it.
Hcg can have the adverse effect of causing more estrogen related sides, but with TRT, especially gel, that’s a non issue.
Hcg injections are SubQ anyway; that’s just under the skin in the abdomen f.ex, so the needles are very small and don’t hurt at all.
Btw, there’s no problem injecting Test SubQ as well. But you can’t use Nebido that way and expect it to last 6 weeks.
Rather it’s an option if you get Testosterone enanthate prescribed f.ex, and you take two injections pr week. (A good option and the injects are very small) this also provides very stable blood levels.
But for now, go fuxk around with the gel until that gets old.
Absorption wise it can very well work, but it’s really a hassle over time anyway.
And HCG, that is something you shouldn’t wait around with. At least if you want the option of having more children some day.
But it’s also generally healthy.
It's very easy and relatively inexpensive to get through alternate channels. Fortunately, I don't have to do that anymore (got an adequate Rx), but previously I had no problem obtaining it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
I'm asking my urologist/GP/PCP about hCG and I'll let you know what they say. Youthfulguy55 what is the proprietary name of the rx you have?
While I am here, I need stomach surgery (nothing to do with test) but they wont do it till I loose 30lb! Any of you guys know about thermogenics? Was thinking about 2-4-Dinitrophenol and wondered, is the weight loss thermogenic sold by your sponsors equivalent?
As luck would have it, Brother Austenite has your back on that account, too:Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
Austinite's Fat Loss Protocol using Over the Counter Products.
Jesus! You’re afraid of injecting test but are interested in DNP, literally the most dangerous drug out there!Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
Correct the test problem and train, diet and correct any elevated estrogen issues and weight loss should come easy now.
Alternatives are plentiful.
Just caffeine before workouts raise your metabolism.
So regarding fat loss there’s actually some OTC supps that work, that is, aid you. Still need to put in work.
With DNP the drug is the work, it’s literally so toxic I wouldn’t use it just because i think it’s a bigger hassle to use it than to diet naturally.
(Even if it weren’t dangerous I mean)
But when talking 15kgs I can see the appeal. Still, don’t.
I'd sooner use methamphetamine or H before DNP. those 2 are way pharmacologically safer than DNP.
I'm not recommending seriously that you use Rec. drugs. but they seriously are safer, just to put that in perspective for ya
I cuurntly used prescribed Prgnyl. It is also the brand I used to purchase most often through alternate channels. About the only difference is that branded Prgnyl in the USA comes lyophilized in a vial instead of a break open ampule. Same stuff, just different packaging intended for a different market.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
I recommend a new fad diet I've been developing called "Eat Less and Exercise More". I'm thinking of writing a book on the subject. He's a rough outline:Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
Chapter 1: Eat less.
Chapter 2: Exercise more.
Seriously. Don't fall prey to the vultures circling out their wanting to empty your pocketbook with empty promises and dangerous drugs. It's not about losing weight. It's about making the lifestyle changes that got you fat in the first place.
Made me spit coffee all over the place... Worth it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youthful55guy
If you don't want to eat less, just eat smarter. I am/was an ultrarunner and last year unable to run due to a bone spur Achilles issue. To drop 20 pounds over 2-3 months was simple by exercising regularly (not necessarily more) and cleaning up my diet (eating right). My mantra was proteins and vegetables first! I fill up on proteins and veggies then I didn't go after the garbage. The bonus is you feel great naturally. No need to poison yourself.
My question was about Termoclen the product pushed by your / our sponsor and advertised at the too of this page. Why the hostility? What is the difference between a supplement to do one job like build muscle and another to up metabolism? And did you know 2-4-D was prescribed from 1930's to the mid 50's with ionly two deaths and that by mega overdose.
I suffer from low body temp (normal about 96F) And as it is, I am finding that the test has got me up to about normal so maybe this is mute, but I would still like an answer tho my?
I have my own version of that plan. It's called "Eat Whatever The Fuck You Want And Ride A Bicycle 10,000 Miles A Year."Quote:
Originally Posted by Youthful55guy
I probably should have said but my bike riding days are over. I did one do the Houston - Austin one hundred one way.
I'm at that age where I feel I'm entitled to a little cheating!
I have no experience with the sponsored products. I do have experience with some of the other OTC products referenced in the link someone else provided (and others). I don't believe I was being hostile but since hostility was inferred, here's why: DNP is a compound that has been classified as a poison. If used incorrectly you MAY DIE. And many would easily argue that more than two deaths occurred. I suspect that there were many more and those deaths were not correlated to DNP for various reasons. If you google DNP use, you'll see quite a few articles out of Europe regarding hospitalizations from people who OD on it. IMO, it's not something to play with.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOfEster
I actually have a similar story of sorts. I put on about 22 pounds (of fat) when I got off plan due to a new job about 3 years ago. Then last May (2017) I made the decision to make a change. Got back on track with my daily exercise and changed some bad nutrition choices (mostly empty carbs at night in front of Netflix). The weight started coming off nicely. Then In late June I had a motor scooter accident and completely tore my left triceps tendon from my forearm bone. After 2 hours on the surgical table, the doctor was able to reattach it. I decided to lot let this impact on my plan to undo the damage I previously did to my body. I revamped my exercise program to emphasize lower body weights and cardio and stayed on track with the nutrition. I am now down 12 pounds of fat and up 2.5 pounds of muscle. I still have a ways to go with the fat, but it's slowly coming off.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoxRunner
Good for you. As they may have told you, tendon damage/repair is the worst. Full tendon recovery is typically 14-16 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Youthful55guy
There's something to be said about hard work and healthy habits. I ended up having the bone spur excised and the Achilles repaired in December. I was back in the gym a month later (crutches and all). Today, I'm still not running (another couple of week) but my weight is the same, bf down 2-3% and I've added a ton of strength and some good size. My surgical side calf lost 3/4 of an inch and it took a month of PT and exercise to get it to get "normal" once I was allowed to start doing leg workouts. And I'm 48.