My research with Anavar and SHBG Re: Youthfull55guy

[rangernu]

Based on the research that Youthful55guy has done with SHBG, I decided to take Anavar and see how my body would respond.
I have been on 50mg Test Prop every other day for 6 months with no AI being used.

Started taking 40mg of Anavar every day and went for labs after 7 days of use.
I take my test injections at midnight and schedule labs for 8:00am the next morning routinely.

Here are the numbers:
TT=1200ng/dl
FT=38pg/ml
E2=5pg/ml
DHT=63ng/dl
SHBG=8nmol/L

Metabolic and Lipid panel
My RDW and Hematocrit has been on the line high side since I was 20. I donate blood every 8 weeks for 30 years now.

SGOT and SGPT really blew my mind. They run 18 and 12 normally so to see 50's is revealing about Anavar. I cannot believe guys run higher does and for several cycles a year. My numbers are after 1 week of use.

For Youthfull55guy: Do you think my SHBG is so low that any E2 I am making is literally being eliminated almost immediately?
My TT reading is within 8 hours of the injection so maybe my TT is falling rapidly as well with SHBG so low.
I ask that because I realize some of us are mutants.
I stopped the Anavar and will get labs for the next 3 weeks on Mondays to see how long it takes to come back in range.

[Youthful55guy]

I have several comments and thoughts. I'll just rattle them off in no particular order.

1) That is WAY to much Anavar for SHBG control is that is your goal. Published research from a very large randomized controlled clinical study on HIV patients shows that SHBG decreases by more than 50% (i.e., more than cut in half) by a dose of 20 mg per day. My own research shows that my optimum dose is closer to 10 mg per day to decrease my high (~75-90 nmol/L) SHBG to a more normal level (~35 nmol/L).

2) That same research on HIV patients showed that Anavar is quite harsh on the liver (as you have seen). They divided their subjects into 4 groups Placebo (0), 20, 40, and 80 mg per day. Liver enzymes were significantly elevated in the 40 and 80 mg group and caused several subjects to drop from the study. The 20 mg group was slightly (but not significantly) elevated in most enzymes tests. There was clearly a dose-response toxic effect of increasing Anavar dosage. Again, this parallels my own observations that at 10 to 20 mg my liver enzymes are somewhat elevated but generally stay within normal levels. Many of my labs were complicated by the fact that I was also taking daily naproxen and/or Ibuprofen and/or Tylenol. I had arm surgery to reconstruct my left triceps tendon after it tore from the bone in a motor scooter accident.

3) The HIV research shows that Anavar does not affect hemoglobin at any dose, so that is strictly a testosterone affect (more likely DHT).

4) Are you certain about your dose of T-prop? That seems awfully high for TRT. Remember that most brands come in a 100 mg/mL concentration, not 200 (or 250) like T-cyp. Also keep in mind that T-prop carries more T per mg than T-cyp due to the smaller size of the fatty acid ester group. T-prop is 83.7% T whereas T-cyp is 68.25% T. If you really are injecting 40 mg T-prop E2D, when I do the math, your daily T (no ester) dose is 20.9 mg. The average healthy male makes about 7 mg per day. By comparison, a typical dose of 0.25 mL of a 200 mg/mL T-Cyp delivers 50 mg of T-cyp. Most guys inject this amount twice per week. That's 100 mg of T-cyp per week, which is about 100 X 0.6825 = 68.25 mg of T per week = about 9.75 mg T per day (slightly more than the average healthy male makes).

5) I have no idea how to interpret your labs with a T-prop only TRT program. Per the graph below, T-prop peaks at about 12 hours post-injection, so you are sampling for your labs at a time when T is rapidly increasing at 8 hours post-injection. Unfortunately, I do not know how much was injected for the graph below. My notes indicate that it was a mean of 7 subjects, but does not list the amount injects. The source I cited in my notes is apparently not correct, because when I look at that source (Bhasin 2010) it does not show the graph. I need to see if I can find the correct source. (Bhasin, S., G. R. Cunningham, F. J. Hayes, et al. (2010). "Testosterone therapy in men with androgen deficiency syndromes: an Endocrine Society clinical practice guideline." The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism 95(6): 2536-2559.).



6) Regarding E. I have no idea what's going on. I think your theory that it is being metabolized and excreted at a higher rate due to the very low SHBG has merit. SHBG has a higher affinity for androgens than estrogens, so with all that T, DHT, and Anavar floating around, it is probably saturated. Also, with it being suppressed by Anavar, there's just not that much binding capacity to begin with. This would mean that most of your E is free and is probably rapidly metabolized and excreted.

[rangernu]

I have several comments and thoughts. I'll just rattle them off in no particular order.

4) Are you certain about your dose of T-prop? That seems awfully high for TRT. Remember that most brands come in a 100 mg/mL concentration, not 200 (or 250) like T-cyp. Also keep in mind that T-prop carries more T per mg than T-cyp due to the smaller size of the fatty acid ester group. T-prop is 83.7% T whereas T-cyp is 68.25% T. If you really are injecting 40 mg T-prop E2D, when I do the math, your daily T (no ester) dose is 20.9 mg. The average healthy male makes about 7 mg per day. By comparison, a typical dose of 0.25 mL of a 200 mg/mL T-Cyp delivers 50 mg of T-cyp. Most guys inject this amount twice per week. That's 100 mg of T-cyp per week, which is about 100 X 0.6825 = 68.25 mg of T per week = about 9.75 mg T per day (slightly more than the average healthy male makes).

5) I have no idea how to interpret your labs with a T-prop only TRT program. Per the graph below, T-prop peaks at about 12 hours post-injection, so you are sampling for your labs at a time when T is rapidly increasing at 8 hours post-injection. Unfortunately, I do not know how much was injected for the graph below. My notes indicate that it was a mean of 7 subjects, but does not list the amount injects. The source I cited in my notes is apparently not correct, because when I look at that source (Bhasin 2010) it does not show the graph. I need to see if I can find the correct source. (Bhasin, S., G. R. Cunningham, F. J. Hayes, et al. (2010). "Testosterone therapy in men with androgen deficiency syndromes: an Endocrine Society clinical practice guideline." The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism 95(6): 2536-2559.).

I am glad you brought that up. Before I settled on 40mg of TP I conducted more research on my self in an attempt to see what dose response looked like for me.

My basis was a 1986 study for TP using one 25mg dose. I have attached it for your perusal. In that study both subjects saw the max TP concentration occur between 23 and 27 hours. So I understand that at the 8 hour post injection plasma levels are still on the rise. I chose that time for consistency ;-)

So here is my dose response research. I started at 10mg TP EOD and ended at 50mg TP EOD. Labs were taken after 1 week at each dose.

10mgTP = 8.37mgTest = 350ng/dl
20mgTP = 16.74mgTest =700ng/dl
30mgTP = 25mgTest = 1000ng/dl
40mgTP = 33.5mgTest = 1200ng/dl
50mgTP = 41.8mgTest = 1450ng/dl

So there is evidence for me to titrate the dose downward. That is why I am here asking for you guys experience as I am just getting started.

Thanks for giving me some of your knowledge, it is appreciated.