6 Month Bloodwork add HCG?`

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04-08-2019, 08:51 AM
Brosef

6 Month Bloodwork add HCG?`

Hey guys, I have been on TRT for 6 months now and overall I feel much better than when I had low T. There are a few concerns I have though. I have a little bit of acne on my back, nothing crazy but it is def there. Also, my nipples are a little puffy and sore. I have gotten a lot stronger, up about 15-20 pounds of muscle. My sex drive is so-so, nothing crazy.

I am injecting glutes 2x a week (Mondays and Thursdays after dinner) with 75mg of Testosterone Ethanate, so 150mg a week total.

Total T : 815 ng/dl (up from 204)
Free T : 21.6 pg/ml (up from 4.1)
Estradiol : 17.7 (up from 13.1)

Also, I'm 31. My question is, would it help with my backne, nipples and maybe sex drive if I added HCG to my weekly injections?

Thanks.
04-08-2019, 09:10 AM
Windex

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brosef

Hey guys, I have been on TRT for 6 months now and overall I feel much better than when I had low T. There are a few concerns I have though. I have a little bit of acne on my back, nothing crazy but it is def there. Also, my nipples are a little puffy and sore. I have gotten a lot stronger, up about 15-20 pounds of muscle. My sex drive is so-so, nothing crazy.

I am injecting glutes 2x a week (Mondays and Thursdays after dinner) with 75mg of Testosterone Ethanate, so 150mg a week total.

Total T : 815 ng/dl (up from 204)
Free T : 21.6 pg/ml (up from 4.1)
Estradiol : 17.7 (up from 13.1)

Also, I'm 31. My question is, would it help with my backne, nipples and maybe sex drive if I added HCG to my weekly injections?

Thanks.

Where did you determine 15-20 lbs of muscle with no fat or water ? If the scale has gone up 15-20 lbs it's not all muscle.

HCG @ 250 or 500 IU twice per week. With TRT the brain stops producing FSH and LH so HCG is key there.

You need to run more comprehensive bloodwork going forward. SHBG is needed to know how much testosterone is being bound. Vitamin D is another hormone to check.

Lots of factors can affect libido - internal and external environment like stress. Need to look at whole big picture.

Acne could be a result of hormone being in flux and balancing out. However, it could also be an allergic reaction to hygiene products, even if you've been using the same shampoo or body wash for 20 years.

This is my 7th year on HRT and I started getting minor acne (maybe 2.5-3/10 for severity) on my back. Happened few months ago. Sauna 4-5 times per week with natural and organic hygiene products cleared everything in 12 days.

Injecting 3x per week instead of 2x may help lower that estrogen number and remove the itchy nimples. I would only consider an AI as a last resort. DIM may be beneficial - don't know enough about it yet to comment or advise. Silabolin knows a lot more

Other valuable supplements related to HRT and overall health

- Vitamin D (35IU per lb of body weight baseline) with Magnesium (no oxide) and Vitamin K2 (100mcg)

- DHEA (25-50mg) ; See Dr John Crisler website as he explains why it's used in practise. Idea of increasing GH produced at night. Run bloodwork first.

- Anavar at 5mg a day (if needed based on SHBG)
04-08-2019, 09:34 AM
almostgone

I definitely feel "better" w/ HCG @ 250iu 2x/week than I did w/o HCG.
04-08-2019, 12:01 PM
Beetlegeuse

hCG probably will raise your Total Test a bit, which I don't think is going to do your bacne or nipples any favors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by almostgone

I definitely feel "better" w/ HCG @ 250iu 2x/week than I did w/o HCG.

+1
04-09-2019, 08:59 AM
Youthful55guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brosef

Hey guys, I have been on TRT for 6 months now and overall I feel much better than when I had low T. There are a few concerns I have though. I have a little bit of acne on my back, nothing crazy but it is def there. Also, my nipples are a little puffy and sore. I have gotten a lot stronger, up about 15-20 pounds of muscle. My sex drive is so-so, nothing crazy.

I am injecting glutes 2x a week (Mondays and Thursdays after dinner) with 75mg of Testosterone Ethanate, so 150mg a week total.

Total T : 815 ng/dl (up from 204)
Free T : 21.6 pg/ml (up from 4.1)
Estradiol : 17.7 (up from 13.1)

Also, I'm 31. My question is, would it help with my backne, nipples and maybe sex drive if I added HCG to my weekly injections?

Thanks.

Please add normal ranges for the labs to the test results. You simply cannot make conclusions without know what's normal for the laboratory running the test.

From the surface using LabCorp's not mal ranges with which I am familiar, your total T and Free T look fine. It would be helpful to know when during the injection cycle the labs were drawn. A major problem with 2X per week dosing is that there are 3 and 4 day intervals between shots. This means that to compare one lab to another, you have to decide ahead of time which interval will it when you do the blood draw, 3 or 4 days. This then limits you to a single day of the week to draw labs and you have to plan your life around that lab draw. Switching to an E3D protocol will not only smooth out the peeks and nadirs, but also give you much more flexibility in choosing a day for the lab draw.

Regarding E2, if this is the LabCorp sensitive test, the normal range is 8-35 pg/mL, so you are norwhere near being high. In fact, you are LOW on E2. I can barely maintain an erection if my E2 goes below 20. I have much better libido and erection quality when E2 is maintained near (or even slightly above) the upper end of normal. Guys need E2 too. If your nipples are puffy and sore, it probably is not due to high E2. Many guys confuse increased (improved) nipple reactivity with gynecomastia when they first go on TRT. News flash, guys get nipple erections too! I find them to be quite enjoyable, but many guys freak out due to bodybuilding lore and fear of getting bitch tits. That only happens if you grossly abuse TRT and/or stack it with synthetic androgens that have progestin-like activity.

With normal TRT, as T levels go up, so will conversion of T to E2. If you have been low on E2 for a long time, you probably have forgotten what it's like to have normal nipple reactivity to stimulation. My suggestion is not to do anything more than monitor your E2 levels now and learn to enjoy the sensation. Do not even think of adding an AI.

Regarding HCG, I strongly support the use of HCG for many reasons, particularly at your age. You want to maintain testicular size and function. I personally use it at about 1000 IU per week in divided doses. There is some good research point to that amount as the optimum level. However, since it is some what expensive and sometime difficult to obtain, half of that is a good starting dose that many use. I would start our with 200 IU 3X per week and then reevaluate over time.

Wish I could give you advice on acne, but it's never been a problem for me. You might want to consider having your DHT levels check and adding in finasteride if levels are high. My understanding is that DHT drives acne more than T, but my understanding if the subject is limited.
04-10-2019, 08:17 AM
Brosef

Quote:

Originally Posted by Youthful55guy

Please add normal ranges for the labs to the test results. You simply cannot make conclusions without know what's normal for the laboratory running the test.

From the surface using LabCorp's not mal ranges with which I am familiar, your total T and Free T look fine. It would be helpful to know when during the injection cycle the labs were drawn. A major problem with 2X per week dosing is that there are 3 and 4 day intervals between shots. This means that to compare one lab to another, you have to decide ahead of time which interval will it when you do the blood draw, 3 or 4 days. This then limits you to a single day of the week to draw labs and you have to plan your life around that lab draw. Switching to an E3D protocol will not only smooth out the peeks and nadirs, but also give you much more flexibility in choosing a day for the lab draw.

Regarding E2, if this is the LabCorp sensitive test, the normal range is 8-35 pg/mL, so you are norwhere near being high. In fact, you are LOW on E2. I can barely maintain an erection if my E2 goes below 20. I have much better libido and erection quality when E2 is maintained near (or even slightly above) the upper end of normal. Guys need E2 too. If your nipples are puffy and sore, it probably is not due to high E2. Many guys confuse increased (improved) nipple reactivity with gynecomastia when they first go on TRT. News flash, guys get nipple erections too! I find them to be quite enjoyable, but many guys freak out due to bodybuilding lore and fear of getting bitch tits. That only happens if you grossly abuse TRT and/or stack it with synthetic androgens that have progestin-like activity.

With normal TRT, as T levels go up, so will conversion of T to E2. If you have been low on E2 for a long time, you probably have forgotten what it's like to have normal nipple reactivity to stimulation. My suggestion is not to do anything more than monitor your E2 levels now and learn to enjoy the sensation. Do not even think of adding an AI.

Regarding HCG, I strongly support the use of HCG for many reasons, particularly at your age. You want to maintain testicular size and function. I personally use it at about 1000 IU per week in divided doses. There is some good research point to that amount as the optimum level. However, since it is some what expensive and sometime difficult to obtain, half of that is a good starting dose that many use. I would start our with 200 IU 3X per week and then reevaluate over time.

Wish I could give you advice on acne, but it's never been a problem for me. You might want to consider having your DHT levels check and adding in finasteride if levels are high. My understanding is that DHT drives acne more than T, but my understanding if the subject is limited.

Hey sorry, here are my ranges:

Total T : 815 ng/dl (up from 204) *[264 - 916]
Free T : 21.6 pg/ml (up from 4.1) *[8.7 - 25.1]
Estradiol : 17.7 pg/ml (up from 13.1) *[7.6 - 42.6]

Since my E2 is on the lower end of the spectrum, do you think this is the reason why my libido isn't really high? I can have sex but it's not like a crazy hard erection or anything. My nipples don't really hurt they are just kind of puffy, when they used to be very flat.

Also, I don't know if this matters but I am taking the following vitamins daily:
-D3 @ 50mcg (2000 iu)
-B12 @ 500mcg
-Zinc @ 50mg
-Vitamin C @ 1000mg
-L-Citrulline @ 2400mg
-Multi-Vitamin

My doctor told me I don't really need HcG until I plan on having kids then he would start me on it because it's very expensive. I don't really care I would just like to feel better.

So do y'all think I should go to a M/W/F injection days at 50mg per injection and add HcG on those days as well and that should solve my libido and get me to have a little more energy?
04-10-2019, 09:26 AM
Windex

The HCG for only fertility is an old 90's - I would have a conversation to get your doctor on board with scripting it. Worse case scenario, source it oyurself.

The D3 I would bump up to 4k - 5k IU and should be partnered with Vitamin K2 (100mcg) and Magnesium (any kind but oxide).

You will want to ensure you are using an Activated Multivitamin, if not you would be best replacing it as an "inactive multivitamin" is basically borderline useless. A proper Multi will eliminate the need for additional Zinc and Vit C. The B12 you will want to check your bottle and make sure it says Methylcobalamin.

Some literature indicates DHEA may increase estrogen - which in your circumstance may be a benefit.
04-10-2019, 10:49 AM
Youthful55guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brosef

Total T : 815 ng/dl (up from 204) *[264 - 916]
Free T : 21.6 pg/ml (up from 4.1) *[8.7 - 25.1]
Estradiol : 17.7 pg/ml (up from 13.1) *[7.6 - 42.6]

My doctor told me I don't really need HcG until I plan on having kids then he would start me on it because it's very expensive. I don't really care I would just like to feel better.

So do y'all think I should go to a M/W/F injection days at 50mg per injection and add HcG on those days as well and that should solve my libido and get me to have a little more energy?

I do think your low E2 is part of your problem. I need to maintain mine over 25 to get good erections/libido. Higher end of the range is better for me. Also keep in mind that E2 is required for normal GH secretions, so I'd be willing to bet your IGF-1 is low too.

I would not wait to add in HCG, especially if you want kids in the future. You need to keep the testicles active and prevent atrophication. Yes, if HCG is not covered by your insurance, it can cost a little out of pocket, but I feel it's worth the expense (I do not have insurance coverage for it). I buy Merck branded Pregny from a local pharmacy at $127/10,000 IU = $0.012514/IU. I use it at 1050 IU/week (current dose 2X more than prescribed) = $13.34/week = $693.47/year. You can get by on half that.

Regarding MWF @ 50mg per injection, that will work, but my preference would be to make the intervals evenly spaced with a E3D protocol of about 60 to 70 mg per injection (0.30 to 0.35 mL/injection of a 200 mg/mL T-cyp solution).
04-15-2019, 08:36 PM
Brosef

Quote:

Originally Posted by Youthful55guy

I do think your low E2 is part of your problem. I need to maintain mine over 25 to get good erections/libido. Higher end of the range is better for me. Also keep in mind that E2 is required for normal GH secretions, so I'd be willing to bet your IGF-1 is low too.

I would not wait to add in HCG, especially if you want kids in the future. You need to keep the testicles active and prevent atrophication. Yes, if HCG is not covered by your insurance, it can cost a little out of pocket, but I feel it's worth the expense (I do not have insurance coverage for it). I buy Merck branded Pregny from a local pharmacy at $127/10,000 IU = $0.012514/IU. I use it at 1050 IU/week (current dose 2X more than prescribed) = $13.34/week = $693.47/year. You can get by on half that.

Regarding MWF @ 50mg per injection, that will work, but my preference would be to make the intervals evenly spaced with a E3D protocol of about 60 to 70 mg per injection (0.30 to 0.35 mL/injection of a 200 mg/mL T-cyp solution).

Well crap, do you think the 6 months of not being on HCG will hinder my ability to reproduce in the future?

This week I am starting to do MWF injections like you recommended of 60mg per injx. I am adding DHEA @ 50mg a day to hopefully help with my E2 and libido.

I know the Test is oil and HCG is water based but can I just do a glute injection with Test + HCG? I saw a youtube video of a guy doing it and it seems to be a nice time saver since I'm going to be injecting three days a week now.
04-15-2019, 08:57 PM
Brosef

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windex

The HCG for only fertility is an old 90's - I would have a conversation to get your doctor on board with scripting it. Worse case scenario, source it oyurself.

The D3 I would bump up to 4k - 5k IU and should be partnered with Vitamin K2 (100mcg) and Magnesium (any kind but oxide).

You will want to ensure you are using an Activated Multivitamin, if not you would be best replacing it as an "inactive multivitamin" is basically borderline useless. A proper Multi will eliminate the need for additional Zinc and Vit C. The B12 you will want to check your bottle and make sure it says Methylcobalamin.

Some literature indicates DHEA may increase estrogen - which in your circumstance may be a benefit.

I've got all the vitamins that you've recommended that im starting taking this week. Starting 3x a week and adding hcg... Hopefully this helps!
04-16-2019, 09:05 AM
Youthful55guy

[QUOTE=Brosef;7457459]Well crap, do you think the 6 months of not being on HCG will hinder my ability to reproduce in the future?
No, You should be fine if you add in HCG now. I'm pretty certain you've not done any long-term damage. Depending on how much they've shrunk, you will probably perceive in increase in size and firmness within a week or two. Also loads will probably increase in size. LH (which HCG replaces) is needed to keep the seminal vesicles active and they secrete about 50% of the ejaculate. You may also perceive some tenderness in your testicles as they become more active again. This will pass with time. BTW, this is all assuming that you were not primary hypogonadal in the first place. If you had problems with the testicular response to LH in the past, HCG is not going to do anything. That's a problem you should have sorted out before starting TRT.

This week I am starting to do MWF injections like you recommended of 60mg per injx. I am adding DHEA @ 50mg a day to hopefully help with my E2 and libido.
I actually recommend a E3D injection cycle because the interval between all of your injections is equal and it makes scheduling of testing much more flexible. A dose of 60mg E3D would be an excellent starting dose. This equates to about 140mg/week. I doubt you will perceive any difference between this and your current dose of 75mg 2X per week. The more frequent you go on injections, the lower you can go on the overall dose without perceiving any differences in T levels. This is because the difference between the highs and lows is not as great.

I know the Test is oil and HCG is water based but can I just do a glute injection with Test + HCG? I saw a youtube video of a guy doing it and it seems to be a nice time saver since I'm going to be injecting three days a week now.
I would not attempt this. For one thing, you risk contamination of whichever bottle you pull up second if the first gets contaminated (I have had vials of T go bad on me in the past). You also risk contaminating the second vial with small droplets of whatever the first vial was. Oil and water do not mix, so there will be a layering problem. Overall, it's just not good hygiene. If you drop down to 28G insulin syringes for the T and 30G or 31G syringes for the HCG, you will not feel the injections. I recommend keeping them separate.
04-16-2019, 10:03 AM
Windex

For the DHEA be mindful to check blood levels. Also with the short half life if you do 50mg it would be best to take 25mg AM with breakfast for example. The other 25mg would be dinner time or last meal of the day.
04-23-2019, 08:42 AM
Brosef

So if I want to do 200iu of HCG 3x a week. I would have to mix my 10,000iu HCG with 5ml of Bacteriostatic water and inject .1ml three times a week? Or if I mix with 10ml of bac water I would do .2ml 3x a week
04-23-2019, 09:03 AM
Youthful55guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brosef

So if I want to do 200iu of HCG 3x a week. I would have to mix my 10,000iu HCG with 5ml of Bacteriostatic water and inject .1ml three times a week? Or if I mix with 10ml of bac water I would do .2ml 3x a week

I would do the latter. There will be less volume error in the mixing and it makes the calculations much easier 10,000 IU/10mL = 1,000 IU/mL. Then for injection, 1,000 X 0.1 mL = 100 IU/mL. So for every 0.1 mL (10 units on an insulin syringe) you get 100 IU of HCG. The math then becomes much easier if/when you want to change the dose. Each 0.1 mL represents 100 IU.
04-23-2019, 01:51 PM
Brosef

Awesome, thanks for the suggestion. I am doing all the things y'all have recommended above and I will get blood work done again and see where my E2 is at. Hopefully this will also resolve the libido and sensitive nipples as well. I don't know why but the past couple days I've had a lot of NRBs (no reason boners). Maybe the DHEA is helping raise my E2 and I am starting to see my libido come back? I've only been taking that K2 and Magnesium for about a week now.