Infertility after 3 years of heavy blasting

[mac34]

My friend is trying to get his girlfriend pregnant since 6 months, but it can't seem to work out.

For 3-4 years, he was on the gear all the time. Blasting 300, 500 or 700mg of cypionate per week, depending on the season, he rarely did small breaks when he would lower the dose, didn't take hcg regularly, only in these small breaks. And he also did some cycling with heavier stuff like trenbolone and boldenone. He also did some deca, but he said it was only a few shots.

Now after all that, he's doing some kind of TRT 100mg cypionate per week and 3x350iu of hcg. He's also taking 50mg clomid per day. He's still without luck.

There was a small improvement in FSH levels over the last 3 months, jumped from 0.13 to 0.61mlU/ml, which is still below the range (1.7-12). This is pretty bad if he already takes 50mg clomid a day.

What could he do to improve his chances? Increase clomid? Do a PCT? Take aromasin? (his E2 is at the upper edge of the normal range)

[Youthful55guy]

Suggest you read through this thread where I had an in depth conversation with someone in a similar position: https://forums.steroid.com/hormone-r...-question.html

It's going to take a long time for the deca to work it's way out of his system, and then it will take a good 6-9 months of heavy HCG/Clomid before he stops shooting blanks. It takes time is the bottom line and he can't give into the temptation to back do intermittent cycles as he looses much of his hard earned muscle. There's no silver bullet to a quick fix. Young guys need to understand this when they start down the road of AAS use.

[CaptainCurious]

It's likely he lost fertility during the blasting and cruising, but the trt protocol he's on now doesn't guarantee fertility either.

Clomid probably won't work with much added T. 100 mg/week is about 1 1/2 times what a younger male makes per day and that's likely enough that even though the clomid is blocking the estrogen receptor in the hypothalmus, some secondary suppression from high T is exerting itself on the pituitary gonadotropins (lh and fsh).

hcg between 1,000 - 5,000/week is likely helpful.


My experience:

I was on 100 mg T and 1,000 hcg/week for 4 years and was impotent. Dropped everything w/ 50 mg clomid/day and sperm came back in <2.5 months but many times it takes longer. Wife's pregnant now and I'm going back on. Frequent sperm tests are best - it's the only way to truly know.

You need Intratesticular testosterone and fsh. hcg helps the ITT but the T suppresses fsh.

It's best if you can get enough natty T production ( >400) from clomid and hcg w/o exogenous T to feel okay, as that's the best shot for fertility over time. If that won't happen, then there's some chance fertility is possible <= 50 mg/T/week. Here's a study where fsh/lh aren't fully suppressed at 50 mg/wk.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2104626

[Youthful55guy]

I know this may sound confusing, but HCG does not itself suppress FSH (or LH for that matter). If the user has functional testicles, the HCG will cause them to secrete more T, a portion of which will convert to E2. Both T and E2 to a larger degrees will feedback negatively on the hypothalamus to secrete GnRH which then will lower LH and FSH secretion.

That is why the person should combine the HCG with Clomid, which is a SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator). Clomid binds to the E2 receptors in the brain (hypothalamus) but has little to no E2 activity. It blocks the negative feedback of the higher E levels coming from elevated T levels due to enhanced T production from the HCG.

Clear as mud?

Regarding staying on TRT while attempting to restore fertility with HCG/Clomid, I would say it's not a good idea. If the person does not have damage to the testicles and responds to the Clomid/HCG therapy, T levels should be maintained in the normal range. Granted, he may not feel "normal" after be on abnormally high doses of T for so long, not to mention the side-effects of clomid, but that's the price he's going to have to pay to restore fertility. Adding in supplemental T will just add in more negative feedback and thwart his efforts and take longer to get to his goal.

[j2048b]

He needs to switch that hcg out for hmg or add it in while hcg is used , and have her take clomid as he takes clomid as well

My wife had to use clomid to get Prego, she took it for the first 2 and i was on it for the third kiddo, along w my trt of 200 mlg test 500 iu hcg per week and . 5 anastrozole



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[Youthful55guy]

Regarding HMG, I discuss it in the forum post I referenced earlier. It's a purified LH and FSH derived from the urine of post-menopausal women. It has a short half life and is quite pricy to use properly, but fertility experts have gotten good results with guys that have secondary hypogonadism (meaning their testicles are functional). I describe some protocols and there cost in the other string.

[Obs]

Wait six months and hit clomid and hcg.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4854084/

Its not complicated.

Point is wait six months with no exogenous hormones so stasis can be found.
Too many fucks trying to sound smart that arent.

I am as dumb as my avatar and a fkin hillbilly in MO.

You and your friend dont need anyone baffling you with bullshit.

[Obs]

Btw... Not chucking shit out with no experience.
I cycled back to back over six months and no pct. Had a depression and six months later got a succubus pregnant with my infectious seed.

Stasis takes time and if you throw negative feedback loops a flux when they are already lost, you damn sure wont find corrected stasis.

The body's malfunctions are much better treated when regulated of its own accord and not when exogenlus hormones are already present form trying to correct malfunction caused by exogenou hormones.

[Youthful55guy]

Wait six months and hit clomid and hcg.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4854084/

You and your friend dont need anyone baffling you with bullshit.

My apologies if you are baffled. Can you help me understand what bullshit you are referring to? If there is misinformation, it needs to be clarified.

[mac34]

Thanks to everyone for the tips.

So if I understood right, he should drop the T completely, stay on HCG + Clomid, then just Clomid and be patient?

@Obs - I'm not sure what are you disagreeing here. Are you saying he can stay on TRT, or are you saying he should drop TRT?

About Deca, so even if he only took a few shots 1.5-2 years ago, it's so nasty it can still have an effect?

@Youthful - a bit off topic, I saw in the other thread you mentioned that E2 can mess with SHBG. If you remember, I had very high E2 and very low SHBG for my TRT. Could that be related to E2 by chance?

[Youthful55guy]

Thanks to everyone for the tips.

So if I understood right, he should drop the T completely, stay on HCG + Clomid, then just Clomid and be patient?
I think his first course of action should be to completely stop the steroids (even legitimate TRT) and give PCT a change to normalize his hormonal system. If that fails, then HCG + Clomid would be the most economical rout to attempt to restore fertility at least until the goal of conception is reached and then he can reconsider use of AAS if that's important to him. There are other protocol discussed in the other thread that also incorporate HMG and have had much success with guys with secondary hypogonadism. If that is his problem (being secondary), and he's willing to invest the money, that would be his best option. However, before going down that road, he needs to be truly diagnosed as secondary. If he his primary, all the HCG and clomid in the world won't help him.

About Deca, so even if he only took a few shots 1.5-2 years ago, it's so nasty it can still have an effect?
Probably not. After ~2 years it should all be gone from his system. With Deca, the nasty side effects come from the progesterone-like activity. It has a very strong negative feedback potential.

@Youthful - a bit off topic, I saw in the other thread you mentioned that E2 can mess with SHBG. If you remember, I had very high E2 and very low SHBG for my TRT. Could that be related to E2 by chance?

No, high E2 tends to drive SHBG up, not down. I suspect that your low SHBG is might be genetic in origin. Some guys are just normally low. I think I mentioned before that thyroid hormones are well documented to drive up SHBG. It might be something for you to consider in low does (e.g., 30 mg Armour) to see if it has any benefit for you.

See above in bold/blue text.

[CaptainCurious]

My .02

Yes, dropping T is preferable.

Yes, HCG and clomid. HCG is to get the balls working. Clomid brings the pituitary back online.

Run a lot of tests to see where you're at. After a few months, check Total and free/bioavailable (which can both be approximately calculated from total and shbg). The higher these are the better the gonads are working. Check fsh/lh to see if the pituitary is working and get a sperm test every so often.

If T is high and fsh/lh are high on clomid/hcg, then you could consider removing the hcg but some may have differing opinions. If you do, retest again to make sure everything stays high and sperm is adequate. If everything is high still, then you could consider lowering clomid dose to the minimum required to sustain TT >400 and fT > 15.

There are other nuances but that's the short algorithm. Go slow and check everything every few months. Best of luck to you.