Hoping for some trt and hgh advice at 55

[Beenonvaca]

Hey, I’m new here, looking for advice from anyone with solid knowledge (hrt trt) and willing to help. I can be rather long winded so I apologize in advance- so I’m 55 now and consider myself in decent shape- 6’ 198 partial 6 pack and fairly vascular, anyway I found out a year ago my test level was low(170) upon initial blood work. Not surprising as during my late 20s thru my late 30s I experimented with anabolics and hgh with no help, basically learning from trial n error. I had some decent results and then life got busy- running two businesses/raising kids etc.. so after 17 years of no lifting I’m back! To the point- I started trt a year ago made a switch of drs in the middle and I’m feeling pretty good, finally. So I’m currently on tri-test 200, .5ml every 4 days. My recent blood results showed My testosterone at 820 an free test is 29. All of my other numbers are in check, however I’m never happy so my intentions are to start a 4 iu per day hgh cycle and up my testosterone intake or include a different anabolic with the hgh and .5ml test dosage that I’m currently taking. My reason is I want to look like I did in my 30s lol but seriously I want to gain some muscle/strength and just look as good as possible. I’m thinking my current dr will probably not increase my testosterone dosage and they don’t offer hgh. I have a trusted source from back in my earlier years, but his knowledge is limited. So ? is adding primoteston and norditropin a decent idea and at what dosages? I’m never going to compete and not expecting to be huge but would like to get to 215ish and stay fairly lean. I’m very dedicated at lifting and have my diet tuned in nicely, very much APPRECIATE any feedback, good day!

[Cylon357]

It sounds like you are presently taking 200mg test every 8 days. That is pretty high for TRT, my quick cranial math says that works out to 175mg per week. You didn't post up your other bloodwork numbers, and no ranges on what you did provide, but assuming standard ranges, 820 total T is not bad. That free T could come up though.

I don't know your other numbers, like DHT, TSH, Estradiol sensitive and at our age (50+), PSA, so it is difficult to make recommends just yet. If you have those numbers, please post for best responses.

That said, there are two recommends I would make.

First, hold off on the HGH. You can look at that later, I think you have some dialing in of numbers to do before you jump to that as a performance enhancer. I am a little biased there though because I have yet to really find HGH worth it, at least for me. I HAVE had better luck with other peptides, though.

Second, take a look at proviron. It is probably the best wingman for TRT / AAS there is. Its main function is binding to SHBG. I use 25mg per day (12.5 x2) but that is just a starting point. This will bring that free t up, which is really what we are after.

[Cylon357]

Also, I would recommend including HCG in your TRT regimen. Not every one does, but I think it is a smart add on.

[Livingabetterlife]

Would hcg matter if I don’t care about fertility or having raisins? Does long term trt without hcg affect fertility?

[Beenonvaca]

Hey thanks, that all sounds good. I am a bit surprised that you consider .5 ml test e4d a bit high. So I’m assuming you wouldn’t recommend increasing that dosage? After some quick research the Proviron is something I will pursue. As well as the hcg, it seems to be something that at least has a possibility of optimizing my overall results. I have attached my recent blood work results.
The test 200 is broken down like so:
Cypionate 100mg
Enanthate 75mg
Propionate 25mg

You guys are like the anabolic gods! Thanks

[Cylon357]

Hey thanks, that all sounds good. I am a bit surprised that you consider .5 ml test e4d a bit high. So I’m assuming you wouldn’t recommend increasing that dosage? After some quick research the Proviron is something I will pursue. As well as the hcg, it seems to be something that at least has a possibility of optimizing my overall results. I have attached my recent blood work results.
The test 200 is broken down like so:
Cypionate 100mg
Enanthate 75mg
Propionate 25mg
Thanks

Those numbers look pretty good. I don't see anything that overly concerns me, though some of them, like ferritin and neuphocytes (sp?) I'm not familiar with.

Your hemoglobin and hematocrit are slightly elevated, I would donate blood at the nearest blood bank to keep that and RBC in line. You run the risk of high BP if you let those run wild, and donation is such an easy solution.

When did you have the blood work drawn relative to your previous injection? Like, did you inject Monday night and then Tuesday morning have the blood drawn? Trying to see if your numbers are in a peak or valley here.

HCG is predominately thought of as a fertility med, but it brings two things to the table in addition. One, it helps keep the testicles producing test, even in the presence of exogenous testosterone. This keeps the boys working and can help improve your overall numbers. Second, HCG is like an insurance policy in case you ever need to come off. On TRT without HCG, two parts of the HPTA are not working like they should. The Pituitary will not release LH, and thus the Testicles will not produce test. Two pieces aren't doing their thing. As already known, HCG keeps the boys working, so it is one less thing to worry about JUST IN CASE you have to come off TRT. Note that opinions vary on this topic, though the science is what it is. This should also answer the other members question about hcg.

Finally, a lot of people like blends like you are using, though that one seems a bit odd. Test E and Test C have virtually identical half lives, so if I had my choice, I would pick one of those. The Test P will have a quick kick, though after several weeks, once the E and C have built up in your system, you may not notice the P as much. You could discuss switching to one of Test C or E at this point, though your numbers don't really warrant much adjustment. If the blend works, I would say your would be fine staying with it, but you may not be getting all the same benefit from it you did at the start.

[Beenonvaca]

So my injection was taken on Saturday prior to the blood draw on Wednesday morning.

[Cylon357]

So my injection was taken on Saturday prior to the blood draw on Wednesday morning.

So you were at trough (lowest) levels. You have some room to alter your protocol some. Your peak levels could be problematic in the long run, especially with the prop in the mix

[Beenonvaca]

Thanks, so what would be your recommendation to accomplish this- I really want to optimize muscle growth and strength. I really appreciate your input! ✌��

[956Vette]

Random drive-by advice would be to scale back and lower your testosterone intake by ~25-33%, adding a spice of nandrolone (50-100mg) could be the ticket to gain strength & make the gym fun again (then, after seeing gains from test/deca, consider hgh).

[Beenonvaca]

Hey thanks, so I think I will go with the deca at your recommended dosage, also add in hcg, should I include the proviron? Cy mentioned getting the free T up is important- what is an ideal number for it at my age? Also you said my peak testosterone at my current dosage could be problematic in the future, could you elaborate?
Thanks-peace

[Cylon357]

Random drive-by advice would be to scale back and lower your testosterone intake by ~25-33%, adding a spice of nandrolone (50-100mg) could be the ticket to gain strength & make the gym fun again (then, after seeing gains from test/deca, consider hgh).

I agree with lowering the test dose and by that amount, and like the idea of adding nandrolone, but I would probably hold off on that right this second, personally. It would be nice to get the TRT dialed in properly first. Or maybe not, 50mg nadrolone would be an almost side effect free dose, and would be something you could run long term with 100mg or so Test, I think. Dealers choice here, I guess lol!

Hey thanks, so I think I will go with the deca at your recommended dosage, also add in hcg, should I include the proviron? Cy mentioned getting the free T up is important- what is an ideal number for it at my age? Also you said my peak testosterone at my current dosage could be problematic in the future, could you elaborate?
Thanks-peace

Putting it all together, I think this would be a good protocol for now:
100mg test C per week (50mg every 3.5 days)
25 to 50 mg proviron daily (12.5 to 25mg 2x per day)
500 to 750iu hcg per week (250iu 2 to 3 times per week)
Nandrolone (optional, dosage as @956Vette suggested)

Reasoning looks something like this. You don't need the fast acting Test ester (propionate) anymore. You have been on for a year, so your test from the C and E are where they need to be. The P probably does feel pretty good right after pinning, but that might make some numbers a little peaky. No, it isn't much so you could stick with it if you wanted, I'm just offering my thoughts.

Lower dose proviron should be part of nearly every man's TRT, IMO. Heck, it is used as TRT in Europe, IIRC, or at least was at one time. Like with any oral, you will want to keep an eye on blood work, but 25mg is likely doable for most of us year round.

I've spoken on HCG repeatedly: insurance policy, maintains some functionality, keeps some natural production blah blah blah.

I do like the idea of the nadrolone: I have some in my stash for exactly the purposes @956Vette has suggested. I might not add it right now, but I will definitely give it a shot at some point, and recommend you do the same. The only hesitation I have is getting the TRT numbers dialed in.

[956Vette]

Hey thanks, so I think I will go with the deca at your recommended dosage, also add in hcg, should I include the proviron? Cy mentioned getting the free T up is important- what is an ideal number for it at my age? Also you said my peak testosterone at my current dosage could be problematic in the future, could you elaborate?
Thanks-peace

Good deal, appears your testosterone levels are off the charts (in a positive way), but who cares (maybe your wife)? Youthful high testosterone levels won't necessarily equate to adding muscle mass/strength. Overdosing on testosterone likely to thicken the blood and basically elevate estrogen to provide gains...worth investigating if you're better off leveraging 19-nor testosterone to realize gains in the gym.

[Beenonvaca]

Cool- all very good and interesting advice for sure! I’m not sure about translating the meaning in the following part of your last message: (19-nor testosterone)
“worth investigating if you're better off leveraging 19-nor testosterone to realize gains in the gym.” Thanks

[Beenonvaca]

Also while I’m here didn’t see what you guys opinion is on optimal free test level for a 55 yr old male? And is there anything/anyway specifically that will assist achieving that goal?
Appreciate your patience with my elementary questions- hoping to learn. ✌��

[Ol_Wolf]

Hey thanks, that all sounds good. I am a bit surprised that you consider .5 ml test e4d a bit high. So I’m assuming you wouldn’t recommend increasing that dosage? After some quick research the Proviron is something I will pursue. As well as the hcg, it seems to be something that at least has a possibility of optimizing my overall results. I have attached my recent blood work results.
The test 200 is broken down like so:
Cypionate 100mg
Enanthate 75mg
Propionate 25mg

You guys are like the anabolic gods! Thanks

I'm not sure if your using a doctor, but my doctor ordered my Cypionate 200mg per ml with 5 mg of hcg per ml already mixed in. Since when I started this I had a significant issue with needles it was important to be able to get it all in one injection. I've gotten a lot better with the needles now, but still not a fan of injections.

[956Vette]

Cool- all very good and interesting advice for sure! I’m not sure about translating the meaning in the following part of your last message: (19-nor testosterone)
“worth investigating if you're better off leveraging 19-nor testosterone to realize gains in the gym.” Thanks

Beg your pardon, have been posting too much before coffee. 19 nor is just another way to say deca or nandrolone.

[Beenonvaca]

Lol thanks for clarifying that. On a different note it appears my sorcerer can not provide the mesterolone, leaving me scratching my head!
Is there another way anyone familiar with?
Peace

[Beenonvaca]

So I made a call to my dr today and got a script for the hcg, $250 for 3 month supply 2tw. I’m still in question on the dosage he prescribed, If I understood correctly it is within the range that you suggested, their website correlates with your suggestion as well so we shall see.
Does that $ sound on par? Also what changes might I see on my next blood draw, specifically from the deca addition? And I suppose the proviron addition to? While also dialing back the t. ✌��

[Cylon357]

So I made a call to my dr today and got a script for the hcg, $250 for 3 month supply 2tw. I’m still in question on the dosage he prescribed, If I understood correctly it is within the range that you suggested, their website correlates with your suggestion as well so we shall see.
Does that $ sound on par? Also what changes might I see on my next blood draw, specifically from the deca addition? And I suppose the proviron addition to? While also dialing back the t. ✌��

No way of knowing what the cost ratio is unless you know how much hcg you received. What dose did the doc prescribe? 2x per week doesn't tell us enough.

Proviron will bind to both SHBG and aromatase, so you should see slightly higher DHT and free t, slightly lower estrogen.

[Beenonvaca]

10-4 that makes sense, I’m not sure on the dosage- I will update you when I get more specifics- I believe he said 25mg which threw me off I was expecting a measurement in IU’s
So not sure at the moment.

[Beenonvaca]

As you can see in the pictures attached the dosage is referred to as 25 units ttw. Is that equivalent to 250ius ttw =500iu pw?
Thanks all!

[Beenonvaca]

Hello, as I mentioned in my previous post I received my hcg today, now I’m trying to understand the dosage that I’ve been prescribed: the box says 10,000 usp units pregnyl, I used 5ml of the liquid for reconstituting and mixed. My dosage is 25 units in an insulin syringe. So how many IUs does this equate to, and is that a typical dosage while on trt?
Thanks ✌��

[Painjunky]

Hello, as I mentioned in my previous post I received my hcg today, now I’m trying to understand the dosage that I’ve been prescribed: the box says 10,000 usp units pregnyl, I used 5ml of the liquid for reconstituting and mixed. My dosage is 25 units in an insulin syringe. So how many IUs does this equate to, and is that a typical dosage while on trt?
Thanks ✌��

25units is 500iu when only using 5ml. Use all 10ml provided. 25units will be 250iu.
Btw pregnyl will lose potency before your finished with the bottle when bought in 10,000iu kits.
Shits expensive too. I was buying like that from my pharmacy until I found some 5000iu kits online . almost half the price than the brick and mortar pharmacy too.

[956Vette]

25units is 500iu when only using 5ml. Use all 10ml provided. 25units will be 250iu.
Btw pregnyl will lose potency before your finished with the bottle when bought in 10,000iu kits.

Sometimes it helps to pre-load half of your bulk reconstituted hcg inside slin pins with a air bubble in the freezer.

[Beenonvaca]

Oh damn, I will look at locating it elsewhere, it isn’t cheap that’s for sure.
So I thought I had read the hcg couldn’t be frozen, maybe I’m thinking of gh?
As always I appreciate the insight!

[956Vette]

Oh damn, I will look at locating it elsewhere, it isn’t cheap that’s for sure.
So I thought I had read the hcg couldn’t be frozen, maybe I’m thinking of gh?
As always I appreciate the insight!

Hcg historically has been a cheap peptide hormone, until becoming a controversial biologic stateside. If memory serves, hcg can be properly frozen, it's multiple freeze cycles is what you want to avoid.

[Beenonvaca]

I just wanted to drop by here and give an update and a much deserved thanks to everyone’s advice.
Like a lot of older guys I have been dealing with some significant shoulder and knee pain, while navigating the intro of trt.
I recently upon advice from Cy- 956-vette and others,
have started tweaking my trt, by adding proviron, hcg, nandro, I have been taking the proviron and hcg for a few weeks and nandro 1.5 weeks. 25mg proviron ttd, 250iu hcg eod, 25mg nandro eod, w/ 30mg t eod.
results so far-
knee pain was at 8 and constant- it’s now at 3 and flares up about every couple days.
Shoulder pain is much better, also 3, just slightly there as compared to almost constant 6-7.
I’m really amazed at how quickly the nandro has helped w the joint pain, I’m also feeling stronger in the gym and have increased weight slightly on all exercises. Also now working each muscle group twice a week compared to once before.
I’m excited for the next few months, thanks again for your expertise!

[Cylon357]

I just wanted to drop by here and give an update and a much deserved thanks to everyone’s advice.
Like a lot of older guys I have been dealing with some significant shoulder and knee pain, while navigating the intro of trt.
I recently upon advice from Cy- 956-vette and others,
have started tweaking my trt, by adding proviron, hcg, nandro, I have been taking the proviron and hcg for a few weeks and nandro 1.5 weeks. 25mg proviron ttd, 250iu hcg eod, 25mg nandro eod, w/ 30mg t eod.
results so far-
knee pain was at 8 and constant- it’s now at 3 and flares up about every couple days.
Shoulder pain is much better, also 3, just slightly there as compared to almost constant 6-7.
I’m really amazed at how quickly the nandro has helped w the joint pain, I’m also feeling stronger in the gym and have increased weight slightly on all exercises. Also now working each muscle group twice a week compared to once before.
I’m excited for the next few months, thanks again for your expertise!

Man, that pain reduction is good to hear! You know to keep an eye on blood work, and I don't know how long you could run low dose nandralone, maybe a few months, maybe indefinitely, depending on personal response. Maybe someone else can chime in on that.

Great news!

[956Vette]

I’m excited for the next few months, thanks again for your expertise!

Pumped for the next update, keep up the hard work brother!!!

[Beenonvaca]

To your comment on the duration of dosing the nandro, I am all ears to advice and/or others experience on this- maybe a really low dose would still provide joint pain reduction??

The more I learn the more there seems I need to learn, lol!!

So as I mentioned in my previous post I’m pinning eod, t an nandro, together.
Using an insulin pin im, however after reading of others injecting sub-q
I did a little research-
I came across one study where 232 men were split into two groups of, im, and sub-q.
The results were overwhelmingly better in the 116 patients that were injecting sub-q.
The sub-q group had higher t levels, considerably lower estrogen conversion and lower hematocrit.
This all sounds like it’s worth giving sub-q a try.
I’m currently injecting.77ml of oil eod, which equates to the fore mentioned dose. From what I have read injecting more than .5ml sub-q will create issues with oil absorption by the fat resulting in lumps.
I’m sure this has been covered before somewhere here but I haven’t found anything on this, so my apologies for the redundant question.
Also any other advice on your experiences in relation to sub-q vs im would be helpful. ✌��

[956Vette]

To your comment on the duration of dosing the nandro, I am all ears to advice and/or others experience on this- maybe a really low dose would still provide joint pain reduction??

The more I learn the more there seems I need to learn, lol!!

So as I mentioned in my previous post I’m pinning eod, t an nandro, together.
Using an insulin pin im, however after reading of others injecting sub-q
I did a little research-
I came across one study where 232 men were split into two groups of, im, and sub-q.
The results were overwhelmingly better in the 116 patients that were injecting sub-q.
The sub-q group had higher t levels, considerably lower estrogen conversion and lower hematocrit.
This all sounds like it’s worth giving sub-q a try.
I’m currently injecting.77ml of oil eod, which equates to the fore mentioned dose. From what I have read injecting more than .5ml sub-q will create issues with oil absorption by the fat resulting in lumps.
I’m sure this has been covered before somewhere here but I haven’t found anything on this, so my apologies for the redundant question.
Also any other advice on your experiences in relation to sub-q vs im would be helpful. ✌��

Please help us on the math, as it appears you could be doing 150mg test/deca eod (assuming your test and deca is 200mg/mL)?

Personally, would rather not inject more than .3-.4mL oil subq. To avoid lumps, aim for an IM inject with your .5" slin pin...often yields a shallow IM which some product inevitably lands subq...could be a compromise to experiment with.

Been running nandro for a few years straight...goal is to make it to decade and reevaluate.

[Cylon357]

To your comment on the duration of dosing the nandro, I am all ears to advice and/or others experience on this- maybe a really low dose would still provide joint pain reduction??

The more I learn the more there seems I need to learn, lol!!

So as I mentioned in my previous post I’m pinning eod, t an nandro, together.
Using an insulin pin im, however after reading of others injecting sub-q
I did a little research-
I came across one study where 232 men were split into two groups of, im, and sub-q.
The results were overwhelmingly better in the 116 patients that were injecting sub-q.
The sub-q group had higher t levels, considerably lower estrogen conversion and lower hematocrit.
This all sounds like it’s worth giving sub-q a try.
I’m currently injecting.77ml of oil eod, which equates to the fore mentioned dose. From what I have read injecting more than .5ml sub-q will create issues with oil absorption by the fat resulting in lumps.
I’m sure this has been covered before somewhere here but I haven’t found anything on this, so my apologies for the redundant question.
Also any other advice on your experiences in relation to sub-q vs im would be helpful. ✌��

Sub-q vs IM is an open source of debate. Some studies (and personal experiences) indicate a preference for one vs the other. I'm sure sometimes this is less objective and more subjective ie a person just likes one way better just because.

You are correct in thinking that .77ml would be pushing it sub-q. I'm doing .20 in GSO with no issues thus far and feel like I could probably make it to .30 maybe .40 (as @956Vette suggests) without problem. If you really need to inject this much EOD (again, reference @956Vette's post on volume), you should probably just go ahead and do ED injections. That would put you around .38 each injection, which would be at the higher end but probably doable.

I have found from personal experience that back filling a fresh insulin pin makes a huge difference vs drawing and injecting with the same pin. 27g 1/2" works well for me, though at the low volumes I am presently doing I might go even shorter. Probably not but I DO have some 8mm 28g pins lying around... might give those a go at some point.

Finally, you might also inject in two different spots EOD rather than going to ED (which can get old). That is, inject sub-q in the glute region, a little on both sides, then maybe similar technique on the abdomen the next time. Rotate those spots and any others you like.

[Beenonvaca]

Yea so math on the volume of oil- first off it’s .75 ml not .77
the nandro I’m using is bayer, it is 50mg per ml.
So obviously that requires.5ml eod to get to 100mg @ 1 week
The remainder .25 is a blend of t,
Not sure why the percentage of oil is so high, but that’s what the issue is.

I suppose I could pin ed subq, is there any issue with blood vessels in the love handle area?

Idk what I will settle on, it’s not a big deal for me to pin ed, maybe it would get to be a pain-
however if there’s benefits from sbq like those I mentioned earlier then it certainly is something I want to try.
I suppose the only way to know would be bw after a period of time each way, im &subq.
It does seem like at the very least subq should result in less peak n valley levels? Due to the slower absorption?

[Beenonvaca]

Correction the nandro is aspen