DHT Control

[Cylon357]

Alright, so as my previous blood work has indicated, all I need to do is hear the word "testosterone" and my DHT goes up. Man, I am one virile, sexy, mf'er!

But there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I'm trying to determine how to control 5AR such that I can keep DHT at top of range, or even a little over, but hopefully no more than say, 80 or 90.

Any ideas?

I have considered:

1 Just running Testosterone and microdosing finasteride
2 Running Testosterone and Nandrolone as trt
3 Run enclomiphene as HRT, with the occasional cycle

1 is probably doable but man finasteride can be tricky to dial in and I had all the sides from conventional doses. That shit scares me, but start low and infrequent and maybe that works.

2 This would be something like 100 test c and 50 NPP per week. Well, it wouldn't have to be Nandrolone but a "prostate friendly" compound would be nice. And I know a lot of people will say "Nandrolone won't do shit at that dose". You are sort of right: I won't be getting all swole for sure. I THINK it would take the place of some of the test and since it 5ARs down to DHN, should not impact my prostate.

3 Man, I'm 55 years old and too old to be blasting insane amounts of gear. That said, of all the HRT options I have tried, testosterone injections provided the absolute best feel, just that prostate thing.

What do you think? Did I miss something?

[Quester]

Def do not combine Finasteride or Dutasteride with Nandrolone.

[Cylon357]

Def do not combine Finasteride or Dutasteride with Nandrolone.

Yes, I have read that. I will never touch dutasteride and will only microdose finasteride, and not with nandrolone for sure.

Have you tried nandrolone in place of some of the test on TRT? I know some people say let nand do the heavy lifting, but I'm really just looking for something that doesn't bring TOO much dht and still brings benefits.

50mg npp.... how long could a person run that with like 100mg test? 12 weeks? A year? Yeah, I know only bloods will tell the tale, just putting it out there for input.

[Zenpump]

#1 If it scares you, don't do it.
#2 Consider what your goals are. We are a similar age and if you're like me you want to be around for a while.
#3 Have you considered GH or GH peptides with your TRT instead of additional AAS? Expensive, yes, but the synergy is there even with low dosages.
#4 Are you using creatine? 5 grams a day is as cheap and worry free as it gets and is VERY (in fact amazingly) effective
#5 Whey protein is 2nd best "free lunch" supplement
6# Dont underestimate #4 and #5 along with correct diet and rest.

If your TRT is dialed in correctly, incremental changes should get you where you want to go without damaging your health.

[Cylon357]

#1 If it scares you, don't do it.
#2 Consider what your goals are. We are a similar age and if you're like me you want to be around for a while.
#3 Have you considered GH or GH peptides with your TRT instead of additional AAS? Expensive, yes, but the synergy is there even with low dosages.
#4 Are you using creatine? 5 grams a day is as cheap and worry free as it gets and is VERY (in fact amazingly) effective
#5 Whey protein is 2nd best "free lunch" supplement
6# Dont underestimate #4 and #5 along with correct diet and rest.

If your TRT is dialed in correctly, incremental changes should get you where you want to go without damaging your health.

Yeah, I'm not really as scared of finasteride now that I fully understand it and studied up on microdosing. That drug just does what it says it does, how we handle it is very much individual response.

I'm not suggesting massive dose of NPP along side trt, something like 45 to 50 mg tops during cruise. What I'm looking for is a replacement for part of my trt dose that doesn't 5AR to DHT and thus impact PSA.

I've done creatine, whey, and a variety of peptides, including hgh. Nothing earth shattering, imo, but I haven't used pharma hgh or doses over 2iu per day. I would likely feel differently if I had done either.

[Zenpump]

I have been successful longterm with low/no sides with the following:
1) TRT dialed in correctly (Gel). Regular Bloods.
2) Pharma GH 1.5 iu
3) 5 g creatine
4) high protein diet plus 30g whey shake once daily
5) **for inflammation 500 mg turmeric, 100 mg ginger and 300 mg resveratrol daily. Do not underestimate these compounds - they work and I would not go without them
6 "eat the rainbow" fruits & vegs
7 My yearly build/cut cycle (6 months/6 months) primarily involves tweaking carb intake

[Zenpump]

BTW - I firmly believe from experience that most people including competitive bodybuilders are using GH wrong. It is a LONG TERM substance that has amazing returns if kept up over many months and years AT LOW DOSES. The massive doses people take to see returns during their 8 week cycles is a waste. Much greater returns would be seen if they spread out the 8iu or 10iu per day by using 1-2 iu over a longer period. No doubt.

I know. "I took 2iu's and didnt feel anything". Did you use it for 6-12 months? If legit, you would be amazed at the results.

[kelkel]

I've used Fina @ 5mg daily for probably 10 years now due to BPH. Zero issues, been great. I also have been on TRT for probably 15+ years now with low dose deca at least 10 of that. Again, zero issues. Micro-dosing Fina sounds interesting as from what I've read 1mg Fina (a 70% type 2 blocker) blocks about 70 % of what a 5mg dose would.

[Cylon357]

I've used Fina @ 5mg daily for probably 10 years now due to BPH. Zero issues, been great. I also have been on TRT for probably 15+ years now with low dose deca at least 10 of that. Again, zero issues. Micro-dosing Fina sounds interesting as from what I've read 1mg Fina (a 70% type 2 blocker) blocks about 70 % of what a 5mg dose would.

Yeah, we have talked about this before. You are like at one end of the spectrum and I'm at the other. You can tolerate all the finasteride (and lowered DHT that it brings) and I'm the 2% that gets all the sides at conventional doses. Even 1.25mg every two weeks tanked my DHT and was NOT fun in the least.

My study on microdosing indicates that as little as 50mcg (yes, micrograms) daily can cut DHT levels by 50%.

So yeah, the finasteride response curve is definitely not linear, more like a right angle. Exaggeration, but not by a lot.

I think this is what I have decided to do.

Reset my trt dose to 100mg (down from 140) per week, including 750iu hcg.

Peep bloods and see where that puts my DHT and psa.

Maybe before, but definitely after blood work, and NPP to make up the difference (so like 30 to 45 mg per week).

See how I feel and pull bloods on that.

OR

Run test at 140+, pull bloods, adjust DHT down with micro dosed finasteride.

[Cylon357]

I've used Fina @ 5mg daily for probably 10 years now due to BPH. Zero issues, been great. I also have been on TRT for probably 15+ years now with low dose deca at least 10 of that. Again, zero issues. Micro-dosing Fina sounds interesting as from what I've read 1mg Fina (a 70% type 2 blocker) blocks about 70 % of what a 5mg dose would.

And I know we shouldn't run nandrolone with finasteride, BUT I'm guessing that it doesn't like triple your DHT, just doesn't let nandrolone convert to DHN, instead causing it to go to DHT at somewhere near the same amount of test.

I could see people running 200 test + 400 nandrolone running into major issues by adding finasteride, but not running 200 test and 100 nandrolone. If my theory above is correct, the first scenario here would be equivalent to 600 test with regard to DHT conversion, the second equivalent to 300 test.

Any thoughts on that? Does your blood work support any conclusion? Am I completely off my rocker??

[kelkel]

And I know we shouldn't run nandrolone with finasteride, BUT I'm guessing that it doesn't like triple your DHT, just doesn't let nandrolone convert to DHN, instead causing it to go to DHT at somewhere near the same amount of test.

I could see people running 200 test + 400 nandrolone running into major issues by adding finasteride, but not running 200 test and 100 nandrolone. If my theory above is correct, the first scenario here would be equivalent to 600 test with regard to DHT conversion, the second equivalent to 300 test.

Any thoughts on that? Does your blood work support any conclusion? Am I completely off my rocker??

I have not seen any ridiculous dht numbers on fina and deca. A long time ago I tracked my dht levels at different doses (posted here somewhere) and did not any extraordinary numbers. I have not checked dht in a while. Haven't felt the need to. Know that fina will sufficiently keep dht at lower levels on up to 600 mgs test. I don't think I've gone over 400 deca in quite some time and still no issues. Are you more concerned with hair loss when it comes to the combination or congestive issues?

And you may be off your rocker but that's irrelevant......

[Cylon357]

I have not seen any ridiculous dht numbers on fina and deca. A long time ago I tracked my dht levels at different doses (posted here somewhere) and did not any extraordinary numbers. I have not checked dht in a while. Haven't felt the need to. Know that fina will sufficiently keep dht at lower levels on up to 600 mgs test. I don't think I've gone over 400 deca in quite some time and still no issues. Are you more concerned with hair loss when it comes to the combination or congestive issues?

And you may be off your rocker but that's irrelevant......

Oh no, the hair loss ship sailed for me like... what? 30 years ago? I started losing in my mid 20s, and by early 30s said to heck with it.

This is all about the prostate. I'm not as worried about prostate cancer as fina won't prevent it (there are studies somewhere) BUT reducing prostate size and PSA WILL make life easier in the flow department.

[Cylon357]

BTW, when I talk about the 50mcg dose reducing by 50%, this is one of the pages that cites that data:

https://perfecthairhealth.com/whats-...for-hair-loss/

That is not the only place that references that data, BTW, just the one that was easiest to get to at the moment.

And for those that are just looking for the pretty picture, here it is, from the same page:

[Quester]

I'm real sensitive to DHT as well. My prostate clamps down on my piss, face turns red, blood thickens, becomes hard to breathe, acne breaks out and hair falls out. All that starts to happen just as my hemoglobin reaches 51-52. Blood wasting helps with the blood part but not the rest.-
-
Not sure because I can't remember things after I make a decision based on the info but I wonder if the fina results in more DHN being created, proportionally, and thats what raises DHT or what. However, I had hair loss when I started TRT which was no big deal. But running my fina with deca on TRT...night and day difference in hairline and general fullness, also the other stuff-pissing, breathing, acne...significantly an issue on deca 350/week, test at normal trt level and fina 1mg/day.
The micro dosing thing sounds interesting and mayybe holds hope for me but I wont take the chance without lots of time on PUBMED.
I'm subscribing and wishing you all the best, Brother!

[Cylon357]

I'm real sensitive to DHT as well. My prostate clamps down on my piss, face turns red, blood thickens, becomes hard to breathe, acne breaks out and hair falls out. All that starts to happen just as my hemoglobin reaches 51-52. Blood wasting helps with the blood part but not the rest.-
-
Not sure because I can't remember things after I make a decision based on the info but I wonder if the fina results in more DHN being created, proportionally, and thats what raises DHT or what. However, I had hair loss when I started TRT which was no big deal. But running my fina with deca on TRT...night and day difference in hairline and general fullness, also the other stuff-pissing, breathing, acne...significantly an issue on deca 350/week, test at normal trt level and fina 1mg/day.
The micro dosing thing sounds interesting and mayybe holds hope for me but I wont take the chance without lots of time on PUBMED.
I'm subscribing and wishing you all the best, Brother!

Thanks, Brother! I have a plan and sometimes that's all you can do.

I think I spend more time on pubmeb and sci-hub than most docs...

Speaking of pubmed, here is a study supporting the micro dose approach and relative reductions in DHT.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10495374/

I also feel like I should add that my original experience with finasteride was when my DHT was at like 60 and the doc wanted to "nudge it down some", thus the 1.25mg every two weeks. I went from 60 to like 11 or something (12 to 65 range, not sure about low end).

Anyhow, since that time, my DHT has been as high as 215 on the same scale, and now the doc prefers not to treat it. We CAN, and I will, because the prostate sure likes being in double digits better than triple.

I'll post up when I have results, though it might be a bit!

[kelkel]

This may change some of your thoughts about dht. Also remember Dr. Morgantalers "Saturation Model" where the prostate saturates with testosterone at around 240 ng/dl.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6459338/