TRT Program - Vetteman08

[Vettester]

I've had a few people hitting me up about my protocol. Here is what I'm currently doing, recently have done, and planning to do for my protocol in the future.

First of all my stats ...
43
5'-11"
194lb (as of 7/18/10)
BF? Had been 12.7%, but weighed 187 at the time. Will have a trainer I know measure me again when I see her, hopefully this weekend.

Currently:
Test Cyp - 220mg x 1/wk Back down to 150mg/wk as of 7/16) Deca cycle ended the week before
HCG - 300iu x 2/wk
Anastrozole - 0.5mg x 2/wk
B-12 Cyanocobalamin - 1000mcg x 1/wk (taken w/Test & Deca ) *Will be switching this up to methylcobalamin shortly.
UDCA - 2 tabs per week for liver protection (more so for the Anavar noted below).
DHEA 5% - Added 1/2 ML Daily as of 7/17/10
Pregnenolone 200mg/ml - Added 1/2 ml daily as of 7/17/10

Nandrolone Deca - 240mg/wk
*Note - The Deca is not considered part of my TRT program. I don't want to mislead anyone to think that this is common play to take deca and call it TRT, it's not. This is being cycled for 12 weeks, and I'm on my last few weeks of it. My main purpose with taking it was for joint relief (which it does work pretty good). What I don't like about it is some of the water retention I've noticed while taking it.

Anavar - 50mg/day ... I just finished up a 50 day cycle last week. This was the first time I've ever taken this product. My attraction was taking it was to add some mild anabolic enhancement to help me get some leaner, harder mass. I held off for almost a year because I wanted to get myself in better shape and get my diet nailed down better so that I could get the best results. Yes, I did see some cool things coming together the last couple weeks. Wife liked the vascularity ... Got to say, I did too!

I've read where a lot of guys think Anavar is some sort of fat burner ... It's not. I gained weight while on it (although that was kind of my plan). All I can say is if you feel you need to get your diet and workout program refined quite a bit, then take the time first to do that first before adding something like Anavar. It's pricey stuff and it will do so much more if you have the other things covered before hand.

Future:
-Will probably back down to 150mg of cyp once I'm finished up with the deca.
-Will consider deca again, if so probably in October.
-Want to look at Anavar again, but my goal now is to find away to get closer to 10% BF before doing it again. GIVES ME INCENTIVE!!!
-Also, I will probably consider liquid Anavar if/when I do it again. I'm not a big fan of everyday shots, but will tolerate it for 6 or 7 weeks. Also would probably ramp it up to 80mg!
- Will be running a extensive hormone panel real soon, which might prompt me to add some DHEA and even a little progesterone (low last year) to my protocol.
-Lastly, like the thought of HGH, but hate thinking that I'm stuck doing shots every day, every week. Like mentioned with Anavar, I can tolerate it for awhile but not sure if I could do it for the long haul. I don't like the price, but that's not deal breaker for me, it's the frequency of shots. If it could be done once or twice a week I'd already be doing it. However, I still find myself giving it consideration. The other problem is that I travel quite a bit for a living.

To conclude, I'm a big fan about doing lab work when you're on TRT (as many of you know). I run my quarterly, no exceptions. I believe diet is as critical as working out when on TRT. TRT is like a 2nd chance on life again ... It has given me the chance to have the same hormone levels as I did when I was a teenager or early 20's. I didn't do the things I should have done then when it was all there at my finger tips. I fully plan to continue taking advantage of this gift that I am receiving, which could never have happened in previous generations.

Any questions, comments, & critiques are welcomed.

[bowers32]

vette, what are your current test levels? also are you seeing any sides at all from the HCG or antiE? As you know I have a problem with headaches the day after taking HCG (200iu)

Anavar ... yea.... torn with that one... for everyone that says it doesn't work on burning fat there are those that say it was awesome... so I am holding off for a bit.

I envy you and the fact that your TRT has really made a difference.. you know my story others dont... TRT for me, with even doubling my T levels in the past three months has not made a big difference in how I feel on a daily basis... beginning to wonder if the sides I have from HCG are worth it all.

Though the incredible wood that has been a byproduct of TRT makes me pause on stopping...

Like you HGH is something I am looking at...but need a lot more research.

Please keep updating us cause like me I am sure there are others that trust your opinions and thoughts on TRT.

[Vettester]

Bowers, thanks for the kind comments.

Funny thing is, I did BW about a month ago and my Total T was 583. Now it was one of those cases where I had traveled the week before and I was actually a day behind on my shots and I took BW on the 8th day after my last shot, then administered meds (I know, slap me, I preach to everyone about being consistent, but every now and then we all slip a little).

E2 was 29.8 ... Got it right where I want it! Will probably cut back the Adex to 0.5 x 1/wk once I settle back down to around 150mg of cyp.

In most cases, that dosage along with the HCG would put me about 850 or so. Like I mentioned, I'll be running a more comprehensive lab here real quick, so we'll see where it's at.

[Vettester]

Bowers, forgot to mention ... No, I am not seeing any sides to HCG or Adex. The only thing I get with HCG is some explosive ejaculations. I take a small enough amount of Adex that I don't get any complications. I know you were mega dosing that stuff for awhile, but Adex is definitely one drug that will bite back hard if you don't treat it with a TON of respect.

[eregitano]

great thread, thanks for the info. I'm have a ton of questions, the TRT is new for me (4 weeks in) I feel unreal, tons of energy, and killing it in the gym. Already notice a big difference physically. I've gained 8 lbs in 4 weeks and a bit concerned about water. One of my goals on this (like most guys) is to get leaner and toned. I feel big and bulky right now, even though I train cardio 3x per week and have eaten a ton cleaner.

With that said what item would you suggest adding to the protocol that will accomplish more of a fat burning/water reduced/hardener of muscle.

BTW still waiting on the E results.

[eregitano]

Do you run an AI (adex, HGC) full time, year round? If so, what's your thought process on that. I feel like what I'm experiencing right now is too good to be true and eventually will taper off as armotazation occurs.

[eregitano]

My pharmacist filled a 90 supply of Test Cyp (prescribed at 200 per week) they came in 1 ML vials (200 per ml) 14 vials. It was only $20 for a 90 day supply. The pharmacist also sold me a 10 ML bottle on the side for an additional $100. I've been doing 1 shot every 5 days instead of every 7 as prescribed because of the extra test, and desiring optimal effects.

What are your thoughts on this, positives or negatives. Like I said, I feel amazing right now. Knowing this what changes in your mind in terms of protocol?

[Vettester]

great thread, thanks for the info. I'm have a ton of questions, the TRT is new for me (4 weeks in) I feel unreal, tons of energy, and killing it in the gym. Already notice a big difference physically. I've gained 8 lbs in 4 weeks and a bit concerned about water. One of my goals on this (like most guys) is to get leaner and toned. I feel big and bulky right now, even though I train cardio 3x per week and have eaten a ton cleaner.

With that said what item would you suggest adding to the protocol that will accomplish more of a fat burning/water reduced/hardener of muscle.

BTW still waiting on the E results.

Before we get too far into that, what are your stats? Also, real curious what your E2 results will be ... That will make a difference as well.

Do you run an AI (adex, HGC) full time, year round? If so, what's your thought process on that. I feel like what I'm experiencing right now is too good to be true and eventually will taper off as armotazation occurs.

I've been running HCG continuously with my TRT since January of this year, and I plan to keep doing it that way. On the AI, I believe it should be used only if it's needed. Some people on low doses of Cyp don't take AI because they just don't see any real issues with aromatization. As mentioned, I'll drop my AI dose when I end up lowering my cyp dosage. This is one main reason I believe in frequent BW.

My pharmacist filled a 90 supply of Test Cyp (prescribed at 200 per week) they came in 1 ML vials (200 per ml) 14 vials. It was only $20 for a 90 day supply. The pharmacist also sold me a 10 ML bottle on the side for an additional $100. I've been doing 1 shot every 5 days instead of every 7 as prescribed because of the extra test, and desiring optimal effects.

What are your thoughts on this, positives or negatives. Like I said, I feel amazing right now. Knowing this what changes in your mind in terms of protocol?

Well I presume you've been doing this for awhile and you know how your body reacts to higher and lower doses? So with that said ... Look at it this way ... You're doing 200mg e5d = 600mg every 15 days. You might see more stability if you were to take 150mg every 3.5 days.

[eregitano]

stats:

Age: 34
Weight:220 (230 on Cyp after 4 weeks)
height: 6'0
Test baseline (prior to trt) 256

[eregitano]

I have not been doing this for a while, i new to the TRT and this is my first script.

Is 600 every 15 days pushing it in terms of stability, in your opinion?

Feel stable right now, BW will tell the story I suppose.

[eregitano]

Regarding the AI, knowing that I'm running 600 every 15, is it more likely that I'll need an AI?

[Vettester]

Regarding the AI, knowing that I'm running 600 every 15, is it more likely that I'll need an AI?

Hmmm, this is why I don't suggest anyone starts blasting until you get your program dialed in. IMO, it can take 6 months to really get things dialed in so you know how your body responds to different dosages. I'd stick to what the doctor prescribed and await your E2 results.

Give us a new thread when you get your results and we'll go to town to help you. -Thanks

[bowers32]

the sides I am having now... are totally on the HCG because I haven't taken any antiE in about two months....and the does of HCG I am taking is smalle... 200iu twice a week... like you i have gotten some amazing results with baby batter and such... but still every single day after a hcg shot I will ahve a headache all day....

So not only am I not getting the WOW affect most guys are getting ftom TRT.. I have at least two days a week where I feel like crap because of it.

Does Clomid do the same thing as HCG? Is that something that I can do in place of the HCG?

[knowledge2bgained]

I am also on TRT. I am 36 years old, 6'0, 230lbs, with approx 10-12% bf. I have multiple cycles under my belt. My primary care DR. has me on Test E at 200ml a week. My concern is that over the last 4 months or so, the size of my ejaculation has dropped down to small amount. I have never had issues prior, and I am growing concerned. Do you think it's due to the lack of HCG ?

[rmacgurn]

the sides I am having now... are totally on the HCG because I haven't taken any antiE in about two months....and the does of HCG I am taking is smalle... 200iu twice a week... like you i have gotten some amazing results with baby batter and such... but still every single day after a hcg shot I will ahve a headache all day....

So not only am I not getting the WOW affect most guys are getting ftom TRT.. I have at least two days a week where I feel like crap because of it.

Does Clomid do the same thing as HCG? Is that something that I can do in place of the HCG?

You can read about clomid on this site but no it does not do the same thing, it is in a class of drugs called SERMS (developed for breast cancer in women) which block estrogen from its receptors, hence minimizing the effects of E2 which is increased when you are on exogenous test. It does not lower your serum E2.

HCG is a hormone which is similar to LH and stimulates the leydig cells in testicles, and increases their size and production of natural test.

Some doctors use a new protocol for TRT that does not involve supplemental test, but instead HGH shots and Clomid but it is controversial and not well establish. the theory is that it is better and safer to increase your natural production of test, then there is not need to come off, and less sides, it does not upset your hormone feedback loop so much.

[forrest_and_trees]

Vetteman, What got you started on HRT to begin with and how long have you been dealing with it?

[Vettester]

Vetteman, What got you started on HRT to begin with and how long have you been dealing with it?

My story is probably like most the guys here. Several years ago, I started experiencing all sorts of symptoms. I felt depressed, had no confidence, little if any libido, lack of energy, etc. Also, I got down to 174lb with exercise, but for the life of me I couldn't gain any real strength. I was even on Anti-Dep meds for awhile, but got wise and got off of them. Finally around the end of 2008, my "T" was tested and came in low.

I began my journey with TRT on AndroGel , but that's a whole different story.

BTW, I'm secondary hypo and my LH levels are in the low 1's.

[Vettester]

I am also on TRT. I am 36 years old, 6'0, 230lbs, with approx 10-12% bf. I have multiple cycles under my belt. My primary care DR. has me on Test E at 200ml a week. My concern is that over the last 4 months or so, the size of my ejaculation has dropped down to small amount. I have never had issues prior, and I am growing concerned. Do you think it's due to the lack of HCG?

More than likely, yes. "rmacgurn's" post above pretty much covers how it works. With the introduction of HCG you can get the testes back in shape just like old days.

[knowledge2bgained]

thanks

[Epic Ed]

Vette -- nice job. Good write up.

I just finished my 12 weeks of deca at the same dose you're taking and have had very similar experiences. My major complaint is the impact on my cardio capabilities while on the deca. I'm going to stay off of it for two months to see how long the joint pain benefits remain after stopping and then I plan to go back on at a lower dose -- probably 100mg. I already know that 240mg is beneficial, so if I can get nearly the same benefits from a lower dose I'm hoping to have fewer sides. Not to mention it will be cheaper. ;-)

[Raziel]

Vette, why do you do once weekly injections of your test cyp and not twice a week? I was told instead of doing 100mgs once a week to do 50mgs twice a week because thereis a sharp drop off after day 5?

[Vettester]

Vette, why do you do once weekly injections of your test cyp and not twice a week? I was told instead of doing 100mgs once a week to do 50mgs twice a week because thereis a sharp drop off after day 5?

Good question. Truthfully, it's just more about convenience for me. I don't dispute that the troughs will be more stable by pinning 2x/wk. However, I've never really felt any substantial drop off by keeping it consistent every week, especially with the addition of HCG .

If I could I would get on Nebido if becomes available in the US. I'd rather just do one shot every month or two if that were an option.

[Vettester]

Vette -- nice job. Good write up.

I just finished my 12 weeks of deca at the same dose you're taking and have had very similar experiences. My major complaint is the impact on my cardio capabilities while on the deca. I'm going to stay off of it for two months to see how long the joint pain benefits remain after stopping and then I plan to go back on at a lower dose -- probably 100mg. I already know that 240mg is beneficial, so if I can get nearly the same benefits from a lower dose I'm hoping to have fewer sides. Not to mention it will be cheaper. ;-)

Ed, thanks for chiming in. From what I've studied, 200mg of deca seems to be the minimal dose that provides any noticeable results. But, I would really be curious to see if you find results with the lower dose. When you say "cardio" you talking cardiovascular, right? I've seen a little adverse reaction on my LDL & HDL values as well.

[Epic Ed]

Yeah -- anything requiring an elevated heart rate just seems to be more of a struggle.

[forrest_and_trees]

Thanks again for the info Vetteman. Would you mind sharing a little about your diet with us? And if so, is it more of a maintenance program or are you working to lose significant bf? What's the most you've ever weighed?

[Vettester]

Thanks again for the info Vetteman. Would you mind sharing a little about your diet with us? And if so, is it more of a maintenance program or are you working to lose significant bf? What's the most you've ever weighed?

Ah, so you want to get into the boring stuff!!! - LOL. Seriously, that's kind of how I describe my diet, and those that know me would probably agree.

The most I've ever weighed was about 207. This was back in 2006. I had a little beer gut going, high BP, and felt like crap. I ended up dropping more than 30 pounds the following year. How I went about losing that weight was totally wrong! I cut the hell out of my calories to the point that I lost a lot of strength.

Anyways, I've learned a lot since then and I really believe that a good diet will be the catalyst to make one's TRT program a complete success.

As for me ... I'm telling you, man, it's boring! I don't eat hardly any red meat due to iron (that's another story). I don't put any sauces, salt, sugars, etc. on my food. Tonight was Halibut (yum), which I added a little lemon. Also had a pile of broccoli that was steamed, and a little brown rice. I try to eat 6x per day, with a couple 30g lean protein shakes mixed with water. Did I say water? That's pretty much all I drink. I might have a cup of coffee in the morning (black) and some 0 calorie green tea, but that's about it. No pop, no alcohol, nothing fun.

There's a good app with IPhone called Tap & Track Calories, which is a good program for tracking calories, protein, fats & carbs. I believe it's important to design a diet that you can stick to. Protein is KING!!!! I'll leave it with one other thought ... I think night time is very important when looking at the diet big picture. So many people load up on carbs before they go to bed and they wonder why they're not dropping the pounds. For the most part, I cut out carbs after 6:00 PM, and my last meal at night might look something like this:

30g casein protein
3 teaspoons of natty peanut butter
EFA's (They metabolize great with all natty PB)
1/2 cup of cottage cheese

BTW, I'm always looking to drop a few points of BF% I would like to hit single digits at some point, but I'm going to have to bust my arse like crazy, and I'll need to tighten my diet up even better. I'm not looking to ever compete or build any massive physique, just looking for the lean, cut, with some definition look. Wearing 34 waist Levi's right now, would like to hit 32 which was my waist at 18.

[pittbulldad]

If you guys haven't figured out Vette is a great source for info.. I pick his brains all the time..

I had a similar free program on my iphone but it doesn't update as often.. the tap and track is magnitudes better.

[subnet]

this is great stuff Vette thanks for posting this!

[eregitano]

of the different gear you've cycled into your TRT what would you say delivered the best all around desired effect?

[Vettester]

of the different gear you've cycled into your TRT what would you say delivered the best all around desired effect?

Well that's the thing, I haven't thrown all that much in. I'm on a fairly small dose of deca , which has delivered on its promise to help with joint relief. As far as strength gains and muscle goes, I noticed those results with the Anavar . I really started to see some changes after about 4 weeks. By week 5 I was starting to see some enhanced vascular definition. This was at 50mg/ed ... Again, I'd probably ramp that up to 80mg/ed down the road. Keep in mind that I took the Anavar with and during the deca, so maybe they both should get some credit when stacked together.

Also forgot to mention that I tried some SARM's at the first of the year. Noticed vision trouble, and there seemed to be some controversy at the time with what the stuff was being made of. Not saying anything bad about it, but it just wasn't for me. That was pretty much the end of that.

[eregitano]

Well that's the thing, I haven't thrown all that much in. I'm on a fairly small dose of deca , which has delivered on its promise to help with joint relief. As far as strength gains and muscle goes, I noticed those results with the Anavar . I really started to see some changes after about 4 weeks. By week 5 I was starting to see some enhanced vascular definition. This was at 50mg/ed ... Again, I'd probably ramp that up to 80mg/ed down the road. Keep in mind that I took the Anavar with and during the deca, so maybe they both should get some credit when stacked together.

Also forgot to mention that I tried some SARM's at the first of the year. Noticed vision trouble, and there seemed to be some controversy at the time with what the stuff was being made of. Not saying anything bad about it, but it just wasn't for me. That was pretty much the end of that.

I know you mentioned that Anavar did not have any fat burning qualities per say, however isn't increased vascularity generally associated with fat loss? How about muscle hardening and water retention with the anavar? As you know I'm looking for something to help with those two items specifically.

[Vettester]

I know you mentioned that Anavar did not have any fat burning qualities per say, however isn't increased vascularity generally associated with fat loss? How about muscle hardening and water retention with the anavar? As you know I'm looking for something to help with those two items specifically.

Keep in mind that my views on Anavar and its use for burning fat is just that ... It's only my views & personal opinion. There are some clinical studies out there that indicate some positive results with fat loss while on Anavar. However, if BF is really high and it's a major priority, then IMO a individual will be miles ahead with dialing in their diet first, and going to town with a committed cardio program.

For the price you pay for this stuff, I think it will contribute a hell of a lot more bang for the buck to use it as a product for building, not for dropping. If I really wanted something to help with dropping BF, I'd personally take a look at a Clen /T3 combo or something like that (in conjunction with the diet and cardio).

Yes, I like the muscle hardening attributes, especially during the last few weeks that I was on it. I've had a little water retention, but that started when I began the deca , so I can't really pin that on Anavar.

[rmacgurn]

I know you mentioned that Anavar did not have any fat burning qualities per say, however isn't increased vascularity generally associated with fat loss? How about muscle hardening and water retention with the anavar? As you know I'm looking for something to help with those two items specifically.

For fat loss best is cardio, 45min 3 or 4 times a week will do the trick. And of course watch your carb intake, snacks, sugars, etc. Var is associated with lean mass gains, slow and consistent, that stay with you. There are a few steroids that will do that (Eq, Var, Primo) but none are a part of TRT. I have only used it at 30-40mg/day but dropped it due to lipid profile issues. Longer term HGH will increase you lean mass and help with fat loss. And you can stay on it for a very long time without worry about lipids or liver issues. You can also try to check your thyroid values and look into adding t3 if blood tests support it. That will help burn cals.

you mention hardening muscles, well if you know your E2 is high you can try to lower it (with an AI) and that will suck out some water giving you a harder look, but be careful how low you go in TRT something in the range of 20-35 is what you can shoot for.

[rmacgurn]

Keep in mind that my views on Anavar and its use for burning fat is just that ... It's only my views & personal opinion. There are some clinical studies out there that indicate some positive results with fat loss while on Anavar. However, if BF is really high and it's a major priority, then IMO a individual will be miles ahead with dialing in their diet first, and going to town with a committed cardio program.

For the price you pay for this stuff, I think it will contribute a hell of a lot more bang for the buck to use it as a product for building, not for dropping. If I really wanted something to help with dropping BF, I'd personally take a look at a Clen /T3 combo or something like that (in conjunction with the diet and cardio).

Yes, I like the muscle hardening attributes, especially during the last few weeks that I was on it. I've had a little water retention, but that started when I began the deca, so I can't really pin that on Anavar.

Geeze i was typing my thoughts before your post went up, and now it looks like i plagiarize your reply...guess i have to wait a bit more next time...haha

[Vettester]

^^^ Good point on the lipids ... This is exactly why I mentioned in my original post about taking a liquid injection version of Anavar . Main purpose to avoid that first pass through the liver.

[Vettester]

Geeze i was typing my thoughts before your post went up, and now it looks like i plagiarize your reply...guess i have to wait a bit more next time...haha

I'm just glad my notes were on the same page as you. Your knowledge is astonishing!!!! I mean that in all sincerity.

[pittbulldad]

Just to echo something Vette said.. I took anavar and hadn't dialed in my diet.. saw pretty signifigcant strength gains and some fat loss.. but none of this was worth the cost of the Anavar.. make for certain that your diet is 100% dialed in or you are going to waste a lot of money on Anavar.

[eregitano]

Keep in mind that my views on Anavar and its use for burning fat is just that ... It's only my views & personal opinion. There are some clinical studies out there that indicate some positive results with fat loss while on Anavar. However, if BF is really high and it's a major priority, then IMO a individual will be miles ahead with dialing in their diet first, and going to town with a committed cardio program.

For the price you pay for this stuff, I think it will contribute a hell of a lot more bang for the buck to use it as a product for building, not for dropping. If I really wanted something to help with dropping BF, I'd personally take a look at a Clen /T3 combo or something like that (in conjunction with the diet and cardio).

Yes, I like the muscle hardening attributes, especially during the last few weeks that I was on it. I've had a little water retention, but that started when I began the deca, so I can't really pin that on Anavar.

For fat loss best is cardio, 45min 3 or 4 times a week will do the trick. And of course watch your carb intake, snacks, sugars, etc. Var is associated with lean mass gains, slow and consistent, that stay with you. There are a few steroids that will do that (Eq, Var, Primo) but none are a part of TRT. I have only used it at 30-40mg/day but dropped it due to lipid profile issues. Longer term HGH will increase you lean mass and help with fat loss. And you can stay on it for a very long time without worry about lipids or liver issues. You can also try to check your thyroid values and look into adding t3 if blood tests support it. That will help burn cals.

you mention hardening muscles, well if you know your E2 is high you can try to lower it (with an AI) and that will suck out some water giving you a harder look, but be careful how low you go in TRT something in the range of 20-35 is what you can shoot for.

thanks for the info, this is very helpful as I make my way through moving forward. Getting my e2 score back this week which will def help me decide what I want to do next. My diet is relatively clean, and I hit the cardio hard 3 days a week and have a challenging 3 day a week weight routine.

[eregitano]

Vette, any issues with hair loss using TRT or any of the other compounds you've used? My hair is just starting to thin a bit, and frankly one of my concerns is the TRT and others compounds might accelerate this process. Thoughts?

[Vettester]

Vette, any issues with hair loss using TRT or any of the other compounds you've used? My hair is just starting to thin a bit, and frankly one of my concerns is the TRT and others compounds might accelerate this process. Thoughts?

This is one area that luckily isn't a concern. I've got the same hairline that I had when I was 15. In fact, I always have my stylist thin it out for me even after it's cut short, just because I feel it's too thick. Genetics I guess.