No more "Anti-E's"

[Black]

I've been doing a lot of reading on aromatase inhibitors lately. Regardless of what type of treatment or therapy one is on, I am a firm believer in taking as few and as little medication as possible.

First off, I don't like the idea of using a compound for something it wasn't intended to be used for. These are powerful drugs. They were produced for cancer patients.

I also don't like to use drugs to combat another medicine's side effects. Arimidex for test's conversion to estrogen, a blood pressure med for test's increase in BP. Where does it end?

Not to mention their own side effects. Arimidex is somewhat hard on the liver, plus it can cause joint problems, among other things.
--------------------------------------

Anyone ever notice that only anti-aging clinics "prescribe" an aromatase inhibitor? Anyone that gets TRT from a physician is only prescribed testosterone . Is this because of lack of knowledge from the doctor or because the drug is not necessary?

True, high estrogen can cause a few problems itself. Elevated PSA, water retention, high blood pressure, gyno, etc.

Estrogen feeds off fat, in a sense. A lot of the people I see with high e2 levels are generally overweight. Therefore, a lot of the above symptoms can be reduced with diet.
---------------------------------------

A while back, I had an e2 level of 72 out of a range of 0 to 54. My "doctor" wanted me to start taking 1mg of Arimidex 5x a week! Everywhere I looked, this was said to be an outrageous dose, which I agree. I opted for .5mg EOD, because my PSA was 1.4 out of a range of 0 to 4.0 and was a little worried.

It always seemed like I felt better when I didn't take an anti-estrogen medication. A better sense of well-being.
----------------------------------------

So I'm going to cut out an anti-estrogen completely. Here's my new protocol:

* I'm going back to bi-weekly injections (went to weekly because I was getting a little burned out on injections).

* My bodyfat was around 15% when last bloodwork was taken. I always lift for strength and bulk. I've increased cardio to moderate intensity, 5x a week for 45 min. I started this weeks ago and have felt a huge difference.

* My diet is always on. I was raised a healthy eater and always have been. I watch everything from sodium to fat. Eat only complex carbs and lean protein. However, regardless of what you eat, you can still gain fat if your calories in are way higher than your calories burned.

* I'm going to start taking a zinc or ZMA supplement. I've read that zinc helps limit test aromatization, plus it benefits testosterone. Overall good vitamin and mineral to add with the others (fish oil, multi).

* Lastly, if nothing else works and e2 is still high, I'm going to take a good look at my current test dose. It is at 200mg a week. I have talked about lowering it in the past and I did. I lowered it all the way to 100mg a week. After a while, I went back to 200mg a week because I didn't "feel as good". Obviously, you are going to feel better on 200mg than 100mg. And 300mg may feel better than 200mg. However, when I was on 100mg a week, I still felt great. Libidio was still at full impact, strength and motivation were still kickin'. It was just that 200mg a week, it was more noticable.

True, I may need to be at 200mg. But if being lower will still do the job, not require me to need ancilliary drugs and make me overall healthy, then its worth it.
-----------------------------------

[BillyBob210]

You may find that @ 100mg per week you may not need an AI at all. I recommend getting BW quarterly and see how it goes.

You are very correct in the fact that a high BF will incerease E levels, so I would shoot for 10-12% and give it a go.

Just for the record TRT caused me to NOT need BP meds anymore, but everyone is different.

Good post and good luck

[Black]

You may find that @ 100mg per week you may not need an AI at all. I recommend getting BW quarterly and see how it goes.

You are very correct in the fact that a high BF will incerease E levels, so I would shoot for 10-12% and give it a go.

Just for the record TRT caused me to NOT need BP meds anymore, but everyone is different.

Good post and good luck

Before lowering the dose, I'm going to have bloodwork in 2 months to see where I'm at. And then from there, I'm going to determine whether I will lower my dose or not.

Also, I meant to say that an increase in estrogen can increase blood pressure. I think I said test originally, which is not always the case.

[JohnnyVegas]

Good luck. I hope you find the right combo that works for you.

I was never on BP meds (like BillyBob), but TRT and getting back to lifting brought my BP down.

[n00bs]

Regardless of the sides having high e2 for the sake of not
Wanting to take a pill is a little ignorant.

Regardless of what the drug was designed for (breast cancer) it's mode of action is the same. ... If I right
Mass gainer on a wpi protein can someone not take it on a cut?

Most physicians know little about properly administering trt if an ai is warranted
For sometime so be it, naturally it would be better to not need it but you are on trt because of a problem. If your body was functioning then it wouldn't be a problem.

If someone has adressed all nutritional aspects e2 remains elevated then it is needed. Especially when bodyfat is the cause.. Try losing weight with highly elevated e2 it's very difficult.

While I agree not needing meds is the best thing for anyone sometimes it simply isn't the case and not taking them can be more detrimental then there side effects.

[marcus300]

You wont need an AI if your get the right HRT.

[Black]

Regardless of the sides having high e2 for the sake of not
Wanting to take a pill is a little ignorant.
I never said I wasn't going to combat an e2 problem. I'm just taking a different approach then relying on medication first. If in the end this doesn't work, and taking arimidex does, then I will take the AI.

Regardless of what the drug was designed for (breast cancer) it's mode of action is the same. ... If I right
Mass gainer on a wpi protein can someone not take it on a cut?
Mass gainer and wpi protein are completely different compounds than an aromatase inhibitor. It's apples and oranges. Talk about ignorant.

Most physicians know little about properly administering trt if an ai is warranted
For sometime so be it, naturally it would be better to not need it but you are on trt because of a problem. If your body was functioning then it wouldn't be a problem.
This would be correct if my body was naturally producing an excess amount of estrogen. But on its own, its not. My estrogen is high because I'm on a synthetic test. Maybe my dose is too high, however, without the test, I would not have elevated estrogen. So from that stand-point, my body is functioning fine.

If someone has adressed all nutritional aspects e2 remains elevated then it is needed. Especially when bodyfat is the cause.. Try losing weight with highly elevated e2 it's very difficult.
Difficult, but impossible? So instead of trying to lose weight first, you recommend taking another compound? Retarded.

While I agree not needing meds is the best thing for anyone sometimes it simply isn't the case and not taking them can be more detrimental then there side effects.

Response in bold.

[Far from massive]

I agree with Marcus if you should not normally need an AI on TRT. I think the reason these clinics are prescribing AI's is because they are prescribing larger quantities of test than their patients need and they also know that a lot of their patients are cruising and blasting often at a high body fat percentage and in addtion some drink and smoke weed.

Add to this the fact that most of these clinics pay their bills through the sale of meds and its easy to see why AI's and HCG would be standard fare.

[Black]

I agree with Marcus if you should not normally need an AI on TRT. I think the reason these clinics are prescribing AI's is because they are prescribing larger quantities of test than their patients need and they also know that a lot of their patients are cruising and blasting often at a high body fat percentage and in addtion some drink and smoke weed.

Add to this the fact that most of these clinics pay their bills through the sale of meds and its easy to see why AI's and HCG would be standard fare.

Very true. Great post.

[zaggahamma]

dante, first...my urologist was the first to prescribe my AI (arimidex ) ..

BUT ...i tend to agree with you to an extent where the least amount of ancillaries the better and see what you mean by where does it end, etc. I call this the elvis syndrome...pills for pain pills to sleep pills to stay awake, etc etc....

and i wonder about the need for my AI as well from time to time...i totally took it out of my protocol about 6 months ago when i dropped to 125mg ew of test....i since have been ramping up my doses and started taking the .25 eod or .25 for the first 3 days from injection....

its definately worth a debate or at least as stated above trt is an individual treatment...i say that all the time...as is most medicine...

you and noobs can get back to stating opinions and refrain from the name calling and we can enjoy and learn as always

[Black]

dante, first...my urologist was the first to prescribe my AI (arimidex ) ..

BUT ...i tend to agree with you to an extent where the least amount of ancillaries the better and see what you mean by where does it end, etc. I call this the elvis syndrome...pills for pain pills to sleep pills to stay awake, etc etc....

and i wonder about the need for my AI as well from time to time...i totally took it out of my protocol about 6 months ago when i dropped to 125mg ew of test....i since have been ramping up my doses and started taking the .25 eod or .25 for the first 3 days from injection....

its definately worth a debate or at least as stated above trt is an individual treatment...i say that all the time...as is most medicine...

you and noobs can get back to stating opinions and refrain from the name calling and we can enjoy and learn as always

When you dropped your AI and just ran 125mg weekly, what was your e2 levels at?

[zaggahamma]

When you dropped your AI and just ran 125mg weekly, what was your e2 levels at?

i meant to add that...good catch...i have been overdue to run labwork so i couldnt tell you or fathom a guess...

just going on feel...i dont feel any different with either test dose (the higher with the AI and the lower without)...

i recently ran 5 weeks at 300mg of test ew with .25 arimidex 3-4 times a week and noticed a good strength gain...5 years in and its still a learning process...

[n00bs]

Response in bold.

Thank you for ignorant comments... You assume i was refering to you and your problems i made blanket statements regarding e2. Your e2 is high because you take too much test? Well decrease the test it not rocket science is it.

Obviously you have not tried to lose fat with improper hormone balance it is basically impossible without sarcaficing most your lean muscle mass.

It isnt apples and orranges, regardless what the product was designed or packaged for its mode of actition is what is important...

[flatscat]

I've been doing a lot of reading on aromatase inhibitors lately. Regardless of what type of treatment or therapy one is on, I am a firm believer in taking as few and as little medication as possible.

I agree with this.

First off, I don't like the idea of using a compound for something it wasn't intended to be used for. These are powerful drugs. They were produced for cancer patients.

It was developed to lower E, which it does well. This is a treatment for female cancer patients that need to lower it. It makes no difference if a female or male uses it.

I also don't like to use drugs to combat another medicine's side effects. Arimidex for test's conversion to estrogen, a blood pressure med for test's increase in BP. Where does it end?

Good points, but I don't think I would have had the success I have had with my replacement program without it.

Not to mention their own side effects. Arimidex is somewhat hard on the liver, plus it can cause joint problems, among other things.
--------------------------------------

Anyone ever notice that only anti-aging clinics "prescribe" an aromatase inhibitor? Anyone that gets TRT from a physician is only prescribed testosterone . Is this because of lack of knowledge from the doctor or because the drug is not necessary?

I think this statement is wrong. My physician prescribes it. But your take is interesting, as most of the time when a doc does not address E2, we call him/her a quack because of their lack of knowledge.

True, high estrogen can cause a few problems itself. Elevated PSA, water retention, high blood pressure, gyno, etc.

Estrogen feeds off fat, in a sense. A lot of the people I see with high e2 levels are generally overweight. Therefore, a lot of the above symptoms can be reduced with diet.

Heard this somewhere before .
---------------------------------------

A while back, I had an e2 level of 72 out of a range of 0 to 54. My "doctor" wanted me to start taking 1mg of Arimidex 5x a week! Everywhere I looked, this was said to be an outrageous dose, which I agree. I opted for .5mg EOD, because my PSA was 1.4 out of a range of 0 to 4.0 and was a little worried.

It always seemed like I felt better when I didn't take an anti-estrogen medication. A better sense of well-being.
----------------------------------------

So I'm going to cut out an anti-estrogen completely. Here's my new protocol:

* I'm going back to bi-weekly injections (went to weekly because I was getting a little burned out on injections).

* My bodyfat was around 15% when last bloodwork was taken. I always lift for strength and bulk. I've increased cardio to moderate intensity, 5x a week for 45 min. I started this weeks ago and have felt a huge difference.

* My diet is always on. I was raised a healthy eater and always have been. I watch everything from sodium to fat. Eat only complex carbs and lean protein. However, regardless of what you eat, you can still gain fat if your calories in are way higher than your calories burned.

* I'm going to start taking a zinc or ZMA supplement. I've read that zinc helps limit test aromatization, plus it benefits testosterone. Overall good vitamin and mineral to add with the others (fish oil, multi).

* Lastly, if nothing else works and e2 is still high, I'm going to take a good look at my current test dose. It is at 200mg a week. I have talked about lowering it in the past and I did. I lowered it all the way to 100mg a week. After a while, I went back to 200mg a week because I didn't "feel as good". Obviously, you are going to feel better on 200mg than 100mg. And 300mg may feel better than 200mg. However, when I was on 100mg a week, I still felt great. Libidio was still at full impact, strength and motivation were still kickin'. It was just that 200mg a week, it was more noticable.

True, I may need to be at 200mg. But if being lower will still do the job, not require me to need ancilliary drugs and make me overall healthy, then its worth it.
-----------------------------------

Nice post really. And although I may have different opinions about it's use, I applaud you for doing everything you can to lower your E2 without it. I skipped the adex for about 2 months and thought I would be okay as well, took zinc, did cardio and the diet was decent. Started feeling different, but blew it off, got b/w results couple of weeks ago and it had inched up to about 54. Started back on at .25 twice a week and feel better already.

I hope it all works out for you - we'll be watching to see how it goes.

Flats

[TGraham]

>First off, I don't like the idea of using a compound for something it wasn't intended to be used for. These are powerful drugs. They were produced for cancer patients.<

Viagra was originally a heart medicine. The secondary use has SMOKED the primary use worldwide.

[Black]

Nice post really. And although I may have different opinions about it's use, I applaud you for doing everything you can to lower your E2 without it. I skipped the adex for about 2 months and thought I would be okay as well, took zinc, did cardio and the diet was decent. Started feeling different, but blew it off, got b/w results couple of weeks ago and it had inched up to about 54. Started back on at .25 twice a week and feel better already.

I hope it all works out for you - we'll be watching to see how it goes.

Flats

Thank Flatscat. Just curious, what was your TRT dose at when you cut out the adex? Also, do you run HCG alongside your test?

[Black]

Thank you for ignorant comments... You assume i was refering to you and your problems i made blanket statements regarding e2. Your e2 is high because you take too much test? Well decrease the test it not rocket science is it....

I took it personally, because you are posting in response to my thread, which refers to me.

Regardless, I do apologize. I'm just trying to completely understand my therapy and get to a point where I feel comfortable in my protocol.

[flatscat]

I was taking 200/week for most of it and yes at 250ius if hcg twice a week. Also on a low dose of Deca . This put my total t at 1000 on day three after injection. Which would put me in the upper end of the normal range for t most of the time. That is where I want to stay - so if I have to take a very low dose of adex .25mg twice a week to keep it in check then so be it. Still, after dropping close to 50lbs, I have about another 15 or 20 to go, and BF to lose and lbmass to increase. Maybe at that point I can do without it. If I had not lost that weight no tellin where my E2 level would be.

[Black]

I was taking 200/week for most of it and yes at 250ius if hcg twice a week. Also on a low dose of Deca. This put my total t at 1000 on day three after injection. Which would put me in the upper end of the normal range for t most of the time. That is where I want to stay - so if I have to take a very low dose of adex .25mg twice a week to keep it in check then so be it. Still, after dropping close to 50lbs, I have about another 15 or 20 to go, and BF to lose and lbmass to increase. Maybe at that point I can do without it. If I had not lost that weight no tellin where my E2 level would be.

At my last blood work, I was taking 200mg cyp a week and 250iu HCG 2x a week as well (no deca though or AI). Here were the results:

Testosterone , Serum - 1067 ng/dL - Range: 280-800

Free Testosterone (Direct) - 33.0 pg/mL - Range: 9.3-26.5

LH - 0.1 mIU/mL - Range: 1.7-8.6

FSH - 0.2 mIU/mL - Range: 1.5-12.4

SHGB, Serum - 13.0 nmol/L - Range: 14.5-48.4

Estradiol - 75.8 pg/mL - Range: 7.6-42.6

I was about 15% bodyfat at this time. I'd like to stay around 1000 total t. No lower than 800. I know that only blood work will tell, but does anyone have a good place to start? Maybe take AI only 2x a week @ .25mg?

"Doctor" wanted me to take .5mg 5x a week, then switch to 1mg EOD. To me, and other things I've read, seems like WAY too much.

[flatscat]

So how are you taking it now - or are you?

[flatscat]

If mine were that high I would prolly take .5 ed3 for a couple of weeks and then back down to .5 twice a week for a couple then .25 twice a week for 4 and re check E2. But that's just me. I agree his suggested dose is way too high.

[flatscat]

Well welcome ryansm. I know where you are going with this, but go ahead and throw out your thoughts on it.

[flatscat]

Really wanted to hear what you are thinking and thanks - not may Jeep heads around here.

[zaggahamma]

Well 5a-reduced metabolites including androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) lower estrogen, so if you are not prone to DHT sides, i.e. hairloss then I see it to be an advantageous way to mitigate estrogen.

moreso than arimidex ?

[flatscat]

Well 5a-reduced metabolites including androsterone, androstanedione, androstanediol and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) lower estrogen, so if you are not prone to DHT sides, i.e. hairloss then I see it to be an advantageous way to mitigate estrogen.

Was hoping you were going down the proviron and others road - it can be used along w test to help control a MILD E2 problem. We really don't talk about it much at all here. Problem is the over abundance of baldies around here lol.

[ecsaaron]

I'm like JPK,About 5-6 years and still tweaking things.Its an on going process to try and find the sweet spot and just when you think you have you get your bloodwork back and its whacked, whether its lipids estro or test.I just take what the DR makes available to me and and make the best of it with frequent bloodwork.(at least every three months).Im 48 yo and life without trt sucks.Hang in there..

[flatscat]

should have said going baldies

[forrest_and_trees]

My apologies... please disregard... Flatscat was right, and I shouldn't post in a bad mood.

[flatscat]

Whoa, now that's a nice "return" post.

I didn't think he was encouraging anyone else to follow him and as usual, opinions, theories and different ideas should be welcomed. There was enough feedback the other way so newbs will see both sides.

[Black]

Looks like I missed what was said. I'd like to see it.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I started 100mg/week (two injections a week) of test cyp. Sure enough, three weeks into the treatment very sore nipples and also started feeling like crap again after two weeks of treatment. First two weeks were great. Went on anastrozole 0.25 mg twice a week (took a pill each time did injection) and that cleared up the sore nipples, but I didn't want to stay on that stuff for the next 20+ years either.

After two weeks of taking the EI I backed my test dosage off to 80mg/week (still doing two injections a week) and started Zinc 100mg/day. After three weeks sore nipples have not returned. I also noticed my ejactulation had turned clearish on the 100mg/week does of test. On the 80mg/week does it is back to white and normal looking. I feel much better, and joint pain that came on with the 100 mg/week test dosage also went away.

I don't have followup numbers, but I have no doubt my total test is probably in the 600's with the lower dose. But I feel so much better than on the 100 mg/week dose even when taking the EI. So I have to agree with Dante. If you are on HRT and not doing a cycle, lower the dose of test first.

[zaggahamma]

I started 100mg/week (two injections a week) of test cyp. Sure enough, three weeks into the treatment very sore nipples and also started feeling like crap again after two weeks of treatment. First two weeks were great. Went on anastrozole 0.25 mg twice a week (took a pill each time did injection) and that cleared up the sore nipples, but I didn't want to stay on that stuff for the next 20+ years either.

After two weeks of taking the EI I backed my test dosage off to 80mg/week (still doing two injections a week) and started Zinc 100mg/day. After three weeks sore nipples have not returned. I also noticed my ejactulation had turned clearish on the 100mg/week does of test. On the 80mg/week does it is back to white and normal looking. I feel much better, and joint pain that came on with the 100 mg/week test dosage also went away.

I don't have followup numbers, but I have no doubt my total test is probably in the 600's with the lower dose. But I feel so much better than on the 100 mg/week dose even when taking the EI. So I have to agree with Dante. If you are on HRT and not doing a cycle, lower the dose of test first.

interesting and informative bro...thanks..

so youre pinning 40 mg's every 3.5 days?

would love to see your bloodwork to confirm your hunch of the levels you think....albeit your state of well being is more important than the numbers...

good for you bro and welcome

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Yes, I pin 40 mg every 3.5 days (Wed PM and Sun AM). I do subq, and stick to the thigh area since there is less fat there than the arse and hips.

[bass]

great discussion! i went to my endo last Friday and she shook her head when she saw AI's were prescribes at high doses! so she suggested to stop Anastrozole for 4 weeks and do blood test to see if i really need it. I've been off of AI for 4 days and i can't tell you how great i feel, my heart was ponding so hard it kept me awake most of the night, but now its beating normally, not sure if Anastrozole had anything to do with it, but i sure feel different! i am keeping an eye on things especially anything related to gyno, i like to stay off drugs as much as possible and only take them if necessary. if my blood work comes back with high estrogen levels then I'll take AIs as needed, or even consider lowering my test to 150mg!

[bass]

Good to have an informed and responsible doc in your corner for sure! As far as AI's you could look into natural alternatives

natural alternatives! like what?

[flatscat]

Yes, I pin 40 mg every 3.5 days (Wed PM and Sun AM). I do subq, and stick to the thigh area since there is less fat there than the arse and hips.

Sub-q is fat, not the area under the fat. I don't understand your statement.

[zaggahamma]

Sub-q is fat, not the area under the fat. I don't understand your statement.

bump

whats the skinny

[HitIt]

Sub-q is fat, not the area under the fat. I don't understand your statement.

maybe he likes to jab in less fatty areas, although still in the fat...i've read many discussions about injecting test into fat...the argument is that there is more aromatase enzyme in fat therefore injecting into it may cause more aromatase activity...the counterpoint is that ester cleavage occurs in the bloodstream, so why does it matter where you inject it and the depot sits?

[Turkish Juicer]

I've been doing a lot of reading on aromatase inhibitors lately. Regardless of what type of treatment or therapy one is on, I am a firm believer in taking as few and as little medication as possible.

First off, I don't like the idea of using a compound for something it wasn't intended to be used for. These are powerful drugs. They were produced for cancer patients.

You seem very concerned about drug use. So, why do steroid cycles in the first place? If you don't like the idea of using a compound for something it wasn't intended to be used for, then you should be certainly staying away from these AASs which were primarily designed to cure and/or help patients to deal with certain diseases like Anemia, hormone related disorders, HIV Aids and etc. Not to mention majority of AASs are toxic to begin with.

I also don't like to use drugs to combat another medicine's side effects. Arimidex for test's conversion to estrogen, a blood pressure med for test's increase in BP. Where does it end?

I think it ultimately ends where it starts. If one does not get involved in a steroid cycle that results in elevated estrogen levels, then one does not have to get involved in AI use either.

Not to mention their own side effects. Arimidex is somewhat hard on the liver, plus it can cause joint problems, among other things.

EOD of 0.5 gr of Arimidex use throughout a 12-16 week cycle, is nowhere close to being hard on the liver than daily consumption of alcohol, cigarettes, and/or illegal drugs per se. I have always employed 0.5 gr of Arimidex EOD throughout my cycles and never experienced ANY joint issues. Your body is different than mine, hence your experience is your experience but there is no reason for someone who shoots 500 ml+ of aromatizing AAS weekly and takes 0.5 gr of Arimidex EOD to flush out drastic amounts of E and consequently suffer from joint problems, simply because such moderate dosages of Arimidex is not enough to flush out that much E out of your body.

According to your logic, one should also stay away from PCT. Nolvadex has a known side effect of blood clotting; Clomid users have reported side effects of nausea, dizziness, headaches, temporarily blurred vision and so on. Over 500 i.u. dosages of HCG will result in aromatization and other issues. None of these drugs were originally intended for PCT use either. In the last result, every rose has its thorn. Those who like to rose and interact with it, have to also deal with the thorn.

[zaggahamma]

On the same token, one should also stay away from PCT. Nolvadex has a known side effect of blood clotting, Clomid has reported side effects of nausea, dizziness, headaches, temporarily blurred vision and so on. None of these drugs were originally intended for PCT use either. In the last result, every rose has it's thorn. Those who like to rose and interact with it, have to also deal with the thorn.

very poetic but also quite vague

what beith the rose shakespear