After 5 weeks on AndroGel

I have my blood results. These were my independent blood draws. Dr. will only see this if I want him to.

My test is off the charts compared to what it used to be, but estadiol has also almost doubled. I applied 5gms AndroGel 1 hour before the blood draws. Is this why test and estadriol are so high? BTW, I feel like a million bucks 90% of the time now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ecentdraws.jpg

Should I be worried about the high estadiol, or is my improved T:E ratio a better indicator?

My plan:
-ask to switch to injections (gel is expensive, PITA, transferrable)
-see how that works
-If estrogen continues to be too high, I'll get an AI.
-I'll ask about hCG when my boys start shrinking (they haven't yet)

I'm getting my "official" blood draws done this monday morning. I'm going to skip applying the AndroGel for those draws.

i would think that yes the gel takin at that time gave u the high number...maybe even build up from the days before..seems high for 1 packet of gel....estradiol, i wouldnt want it too much higher but i wouldnt do nothing drastic to make it too low....very light AI as its a little out of range(ALL DEPENDING ON YOUR SYMPTOMS) how u been doin on the gel? whats main reason for wanting the switch? not that i wouldnt/didnt want to asap!?

where did you apply the gel???

Should I show these results to my urologist and ask for a referral to an endo for an AI, or did the estrogen just spike since it was near the application of the gel?

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Originally Posted by jpkman

i would think that yes the gel takin at that time gave u the high number...maybe even build up from the days before..seems high for 1 packet of gel....estradiol, i wouldnt want it too much higher but i wouldnt do nothing drastic to make it too low....very light AI as its a little out of range(ALL DEPENDING ON YOUR SYMPTOMS) how u been doin on the gel? whats main reason for wanting the switch? not that i wouldnt/didnt want to asap!?

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Honestly, I don't know what type of high-estrogen symptoms to look for, but nothing's jumping out at the moment.
I want injections because:
1) I'm tired of applying the gel daily.
2) Gel is more expensive, and I'm switching insurance soon so only God knows how much the copay might jump.
3) I'm worried about transferring the gel to others.

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Originally Posted by tonyinnh

where did you apply the gel???

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Stomach and shoulders. Blood was drawn near the elbow.

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Originally Posted by funkymonk

Should I show these results to my urologist and ask for a referral to an endo for an AI, or did the estrogen just spike since it was near the application of the gel?



Honestly, I don't know what type of high-estrogen symptoms to look for, but nothing's jumping out at the moment.
I want injections because:
1) I'm tired of applying the gel daily.
2) Gel is more expensive, and I'm switching insurance soon so only God knows how much the copay might jump.
3) I'm worried about transferring the gel to others.



Stomach and shoulders. Blood was drawn near the elbow.

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makes perfect sense...same reason as most....what i meant by how u felt i meant more how u feelin havin those test levels like a lil gorilla...symptoms of high e2 could take on different characteristics including itchy/sens. nipples or bloating/water weight/fat face/soft look but more importantly would counter the good test levels...this is why i ask how u are feeling...
example if i had several blood tests showing my e2 JUST A LITTLE out of range and my t levels upwards on the range and i was feeling GREAT...i myself wouldnt change a thing
just my .02

Honestly, I feel great like all the time. I have not noticed nipple sensitivity or water retention, if anything I have noticed the opposite. I've always carried a lot of fat near my chest, but it seems to be dissipating slightly over the past few weeks, despite the scale moving up.

I'll push for my injections first and foremost, and then address the e2 issue at my next followup if necessary.

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Originally Posted by funkymonk

Honestly, I feel great like all the time. I have not noticed nipple sensitivity or water retention, if anything I have noticed the opposite. I've always carried a lot of fat near my chest, but it seems to be dissipating slightly over the past few weeks, despite the scale moving up.

I'll push for my injections first and foremost, and then address the e2 issue at my next followup if necessary.

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great...and perfect plan....

aint broke....DONT FIX

thats what I did too... I have 2 girls and my wife,, 3 women in my house I could hug without thinking about it,, use a towel without thinking about it,,, jump in a pool. worry about my dirty shirts getting touched by them.. etc

and the reason why I asked where.. is cause Ive heard of guys putting it on their scrotum to get a quick high from it.. I guess it goes in your blood really fast but not safe.... thats why the warnings are all over the labels....

I wouldn't worry about your E readings. You used the standard E2 test which usually reads high for males. The sensitive E2 test no: 140244 with range of 3-70 for males usually gives much lower levels. In fact your E2 may correlate on the other test close to or below 20.

Most guys on androgel have the trough checked...that is 24 hrs after application. That's your low and your peak is usually a couple of hundred points higher than that.

Be careful about switching to shots too quickly if you feel good on the gel. Gel has stronger effect on DHT which can be 'felt' by increased feelings of well being and libido. My husband never felt anywhere near as good using injections as he does on androgel. Some guys just do not absorb it well but if you are one of the ones who absorb...and it looks like you are...maybe reconsider switching.

So long as your applied areas are covered by a T shirt, don't worry about transfer too much. My husband sleeps shirtless, sometimes he even applies right before bed and I am fine. We just don't let our little girl touch places on his skin that have been recently applied.

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Originally Posted by PPC

I wouldn't worry about your E readings. You used the standard E2 test which usually reads high for males. The sensitive E2 test no: 140244 with range of 3-70 for males usually gives much lower levels. In fact your E2 may correlate on the other test close to or below 20.

Most guys on androgel have the trough checked...that is 24 hrs after application. That's your low and your peak is usually a couple of hundred points higher than that.

Be careful about switching to shots too quickly if you feel good on the gel. Gel has stronger effect on DHT which can be 'felt' by increased feelings of well being and libido. My husband never felt anywhere near as good using injections as he does on androgel. Some guys just do not absorb it well but if you are one of the ones who absorb...and it looks like you are...maybe reconsider switching.

So long as your applied areas are covered by a T shirt, don't worry about transfer too much. My husband sleeps shirtless, sometimes he even applies right before bed and I am fine. We just don't let our little girl touch places on his skin that have been recently applied.

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I think the transfer dangers are a bit overblown as well. My wife has been exposed plenty over the last year with no virilization effects, though I suppose everyone is different in how they react too. I didn't know that the gel is associated with a greater sense of well-being and libido than the injectible test. Very interesting.

I believe that blood test. levels peak very quickly with the gel...so BW one hour after dosing might show very high levels.

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Originally Posted by sirupate

I think the transfer dangers are a bit overblown as well. My wife has been exposed plenty over the last year with no virilization effects, though I suppose everyone is different in how they react too. I didn't know that the gel is associated with a greater sense of well-being and libido than the injectible test. Very interesting.

I believe that blood test. levels peak very quickly with the gel...so BW one hour after dosing might show very high levels.

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I think its more of a pull to get injections and has seemed to work...some doctors are more stubborn and wont allow a switch...as i do think its a lil overblown i still wouldnt hold my children unless i was showered...just really not a choice...imo

Hmm...did not know that about the well being and libido either. Is there any reason (not cost/transferrance/convenience related) to switch to IM injections instead of gel? I'm beginning to wonder if it's really all that wise of a switch.

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Originally Posted by jpkman

I think its more of a pull to get injections and has seemed to work...some doctors are more stubborn and wont allow a switch...as i do think its a lil overblown i still wouldnt hold my children unless i was showered...just really not a choice...imo

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My hubby applies to shoulders, biceps, clavicles and lats...then he has a little bit of excess left on his hands and he puts it on his scrotum. It's not much, considered a no, no, but many guys do it for a further bump in T levels.

All of those places are covered when he wears clothing. I get exposed to them in bed but the kids don't while he's dressed. All is well here but I can see how it might seem scary. Our babies always slept with us, so if we still had little ones climbing in bed, he wouldn't be able to use gel.

My Doc is trying to push me to take the gel. I was always under the impression that the gel is garbage, and one should try for the injections. Has anyone seen some good results in the gym with just the gel? There is a local lab here that makes the gel, so the cost is not really any more than the injectables.

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Originally Posted by vtach12

My Doc is trying to push me to take the gel. I was always under the impression that the gel is garbage, and one should try for the injections. Has anyone seen some good results in the gym with just the gel? There is a local lab here that makes the gel, so the cost is not really any more than the injectables.

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i saw immediate gains when i first started..i never stayed on for long...my goal was always injectables...there have been few members who've stayed on gel really to give it an A+ rating....like said many times if you are low T you should see improvements in such symptoms and/or gains as your test levels should elevate from either low or low normal levels

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Originally Posted by vtach12

My Doc is trying to push me to take the gel. I was always under the impression that the gel is garbage, and one should try for the injections. Has anyone seen some good results in the gym with just the gel? There is a local lab here that makes the gel, so the cost is not really any more than the injectables.

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If your test levels are low now, you may see some gains in the gym (in comparison) from using the gel. Problem is, the gel only adds fairly low amounts of testosterone. I think about 150mg./mo. for the 5 gms. daily dosing and 300mg./mo. for the 10gms. daily dosing. Most guys who are injecting for TRT are injecting 400-800mgs./mo. of testosterone. The gel is easy to apply and if you have been low, you will probably feel great (in comparison) for at least a while.

sirp

I used Androgel for two months and felt great except for some anxiety at bed time and skin always feeling hot. I went from my test being 125 to 500. feltgood in the gym and was hard as a rock in the bed room. however in the third month i got really bad side effects which mirrored shingles..... it was so painful. i got tested for shingles and it was negitive. as soon as i got off the gel it went away in 3 days. now im on the injections test cyp and what a great difference !!!! i dont get spikes in test and no anxiety !! much stronger in gym

my doc offered me the gel and i turned it down, then went to a clinic and paid out of pocket for injections. i don't know why the hell they make the gel, its too expensive and inconvenient to use!

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Originally Posted by vtach12

My Doc is trying to push me to take the gel. I was always under the impression that the gel is garbage, and one should try for the injections. Has anyone seen some good results in the gym with just the gel? There is a local lab here that makes the gel, so the cost is not really any more than the injectables.

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I've been making steady gains on the gel since I've been doing 6 pumps. Problem with injectables is that they are weekly so levels start with a spike and then fizzle each week towards the end and your mood and energy can vary because of that.

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Originally Posted by jj91709

I've been making steady gains on the gel since I've been doing 6 pumps. Problem with injectables is that they are weekly so levels start with a spike and then fizzle each week towards the end and your mood and energy can vary because of that.

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good to know...would you please keep us posted and even offer up some more specifics about your gains you mention, mayb even some b4 stats, after, progression....very few ppl on this board stay on gel

thanks and best of continued luck

I'm a fan of A-gel. Been on about 6 mo now. Like stated in earlier posts, brought me from a 59 (tumor related) to a 400's to 500's baseline in the am 25 hrs after application. Did one test 6 hrs after application and was over 850 T level. I'm loving it so far. I don't mind shots, god knows I did my share years ago, but the thought of every week for the rest of my life, thats a tough one. Insurance covers it to the tune of over 1k per month so I'm lucky. I had lost about 10 pounds and couldn't figure out why, then tumor diagnosed due to bloodwork. A-gel put the weight right back on me, although doc and endo won't consider E-levels or anti-E's for that matter.

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Originally Posted by kelkel

I'm a fan of A-gel. Been on about 6 mo now. Like stated in earlier posts, brought me from a 59 (tumor related) to a 400's to 500's baseline in the am 25 hrs after application. Did one test 6 hrs after application and was over 850 T level. I'm loving it so far. I don't mind shots, god knows I did my share years ago, but the thought of every week for the rest of my life, thats a tough one. Insurance covers it to the tune of over 1k per month so I'm lucky. I had lost about 10 pounds and couldn't figure out why, then tumor diagnosed due to bloodwork. A-gel put the weight right back on me, although doc and endo won't consider E-levels or anti-E's for that matter.

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ask them why do they think other doctors DO

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Originally Posted by jpkman

good to know...would you please keep us posted and even offer up some more specifics about your gains you mention, mayb even some b4 stats, after, progression....very few ppl on this board stay on gel

thanks and best of continued luck

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Overall my energy is much better. It's funny, when I look in the mirror I kind of get immune to the changes in my body, but the other day when I got my hair cut, the guy that cuts my hair asked if I was on steroids or something. I just usually don't wear those types of shirts. Then at the gym, I wore a sleeveless shirt which I normally don't do and thought I looked a lot bigger. That is anecdotal stuff, but I'm up to 167 now, up from 160 in a few months. I still have some belly fat which is very surprising because I do a lot of cardio and also strength training 4 days/wk-- kind of disappointing, I'm at about 20-21% bodyfat. My diet is great except one free day each week. I eat 6 small meals a day (one serving of protein + one serving of carbs, plus lots of nuts-- possibly too many nuts!) I actually just called my endocrinologist to have him add to my lab order that I want my estrogen tested also. I was reading that being on testosterone can increase your estrogen too if you don't take an estrogen blocker. And estrogen can lead to belly fat if I'm not mistaken. As of today I'm not going to rub the androgel on my stomach anymore either. I've heard that can cause problems too in terms of preventing fat loss-- not sure if it's true or not, but I'll change it up a bit. Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by jj91709

Overall my energy is much better. It's funny, when I look in the mirror I kind of get immune to the changes in my body, but the other day when I got my hair cut, the guy that cuts my hair asked if I was on steroids or something. I just usually don't wear those types of shirts. Then at the gym, I wore a sleeveless shirt which I normally don't do and thought I looked a lot bigger. That is anecdotal stuff, but I'm up to 167 now, up from 160 in a few months. I still have some belly fat which is very surprising because I do a lot of cardio and also strength training 4 days/wk-- kind of disappointing, I'm at about 20-21% bodyfat. My diet is great except one free day each week. I eat 6 small meals a day (one serving of protein + one serving of carbs, plus lots of nuts-- possibly too many nuts!) I actually just called my endocrinologist to have him add to my lab order that I want my estrogen tested also. I was reading that being on testosterone can increase your estrogen too if you don't take an estrogen blocker. And estrogen can lead to belly fat if I'm not mistaken. As of today I'm not going to rub the androgel on my stomach anymore either. I've heard that can cause problems too in terms of preventing fat loss-- not sure if it's true or not, but I'll change it up a bit. Any thoughts?

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yeh i always wondered where to spread that shiat...i usually did chest , shoulders, and legs but did spread on abdomen especially when i was using 3 packets...lol...maybe you can find your bf% as close to exact as possible so you can know for sure although you and others are noticing already...

SLOWLY improve those aspects of your diet that you know u need help, ie: the nuts...i also snacked on peanuts as a snack alternative and had no problems losing weight/fat...i ate a lot of fruit for snacks as well...some frown on fruit as its sugar but i'm not a bodybuilder and goals are different...

keep us posted...like to see you in the mid teen bf% before winter hows that sound