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Thread: hCG and Pregnenolone; What you should know.

  1. #81
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    Excellent resource for information, both in the OP and subsequent Q&A... thanks so much for your contribution GD!

    This, of course, leads to more questions. Does HCG automatically equate to higher E2 levels? As of this moment I am not running an AI with TRT (only started a week ago) but plan to 'demand' it at my next visit (3 weeks), regardless of BW. I'm just concerned with the amount required - i.e. if I were running test alone without HCG, there'd likely still be the need for an AI, but if introducing HCG raises E2 levels even higher, I expect the dosage will differ. I have some more, but will save them for my own thread.

    On another note, i'm thinking i'll add Preg & DHEA asap.

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    Does HCG automatically equate to higher E2 levels?

    It can, but generally seen in higher doses like >500iu daily. There should be no need to dose greater then 350iu daily. This is one peptide where smaller doses more frequently is better. When E2 is elevated it can do so in the testes where an AI is largely ineffective in controlling. If you were diagnosed as Secondary Hypogonadal you will most likely see an increase in natural production...which is a good thing

    Back filling the pathways is always a good thing for many reasons. If you don't go with a transdermal cream look for micronized pills; 25mg of each twice daily will do the trick!

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    Does HCG automatically equate to higher E2 levels?

    It can, but generally seen in higher doses like >500iu daily. There should be no need to dose greater then 350iu daily. This is one peptide where smaller doses more frequently is better. When E2 is elevated it can do so in the testes where an AI is largely ineffective in controlling. If you were diagnosed as Secondary Hypogonadal you will most likely see an increase in natural production...which is a good thing

    Back filling the pathways is always a good thing for many reasons. If you don't go with a transdermal cream look for micronized pills; 25mg of each twice daily will do the trick!
    Thanks for the fast reply.

    I was prescribed 500iu 2x weekly. Not certain at this point whether I should stick with that or bump the frequency while lowering the dosage to around 350iu EOD-ish.

    Re: back filling - I saw your recommendation for lef dot org and am looking into both aforementioned supplements now. As well, I just picked up Vitamin D (2000iu per softgel although I'm uncertain as to reasonable dosage) and am looking into Stinging Nettles; the latter 2 in an effort to lower my SHBG.

    Would love it if you visited my thread. Don't mind me, i'm a shameless self promoting whore.

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    Most doctors are utter shit. If we cant curse sorry! I had one endo trying to give me appetite suppressants. I don't. He had no clue about hcg . eat alot for christ sake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreadnok89 View Post
    Most doctors are utter shit. If we cant curse sorry! I had one endo trying to give me appetite suppressants. I don't. He had no clue about hcg. eat alot for christ sake.
    Most Practitioners are not educated about Testosterone Replacement Therapies in men. The ones who do get it are those on the cutting edge of Anti Aging Medicine and who have been speciality trained outside the traditional learning processes in the medical field.

    That's why most of the Doc's in the TRT space for men have varying backgrounds in Medicine.

    It's the Doc's who don't know what they are doing who "try" to undertake TRT protocols in men and really end up putting them in an even worse place are the ones who piss me off.

    And oh yea...it's okay to use some profanity around here as long as it's done in a meaningful way if you know what I mean

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    i got you loud and clear. i respect my doctor because he told me right of the bat all he can do is prescribe something like andro gel. he also stated he doesnt know much about hcg and all the other tidbits of hrt. it is hard to find one.

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    micheljohn331 is offline New Member
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    Pregnenolone helps to improve brain power without side effect.the hormone production can be stop in any case.hcg prevent from growth hormone problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dreadnok89 View Post
    i got you loud and clear. i respect my doctor because he told me right of the bat all he can do is prescribe something like andro gel. he also stated he doesnt know much about hcg and all the other tidbits of hrt. it is hard to find one.
    I guess I would prefer that to a doctor that is trying to act like they can treat you and refuse things like HCG and E2 checks.

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    micheljohn331 is offline New Member
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    HCG and pregnelone helps to improve hormone and boost memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SEOINAGE View Post
    I guess I would prefer that to a doctor that is trying to act like they can treat you and refuse things like HCG and E2 checks.

    They are many types of doctor which type of doctor will meet please tell me.

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    Is there any way to monitor/measure the effects of HCG ? When we start TRT, we know LH will be low, and HCG doesn't actually boost it but rather mimics it. So the question is, are there any other markers that can measure the effects of HCG aside from cosmetically (i.e. testicle size, etc)? I assume a normal/healthy sperm count would be one indication. Anything else?

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    gdevine, what are your thoughts on prefilling and freezing HCG syringes in order to preserve potency? There was a discussion on Dr. Crisler's site a couple of months ago about this, where in addition to being convenient, a slight loss of potency seen [by the source mentioned indirectly] in refrigerated HCG was avoided by freezing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbrice75 View Post
    Is there any way to monitor/measure the effects of HCG? When we start TRT, we know LH will be low, and HCG doesn't actually boost it but rather mimics it. So the question is, are there any other markers that can measure the effects of HCG aside from cosmetically (i.e. testicle size, etc)? I assume a normal/healthy sperm count would be one indication. Anything else?
    There are no blood tests to measure the effects of HCG other then Testosterone panels on monotherapies. HCG is an LH analog; in other words while it looks very similar to LH, it's not, but the Testes don't know that and function like they were activated by LH at the Leydig Cell receptor sites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torrential View Post
    gdevine, what are your thoughts on prefilling and freezing HCG syringes in order to preserve potency? There was a discussion on Dr. Crisler's site a couple of months ago about this, where in addition to being convenient, a slight loss of potency seen [by the source mentioned indirectly] in refrigerated HCG was avoided by freezing.
    I preload and freeze my PT 141 and it keeps the potency like new. I guess the same can be done for HCG as well; but I guess my question is why?

    If your buying 5000 unit vials and were injecting 750 to 1000 iu a week that would last a month and a half or so. HCG can keep its potency for at least 60 to 90 days...maybe longer.

    So I don't think it's necessary to be truthful.

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    Bushyhead is offline New Member
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    Very informative I will be sure to ask HCG once I am able to find a good doctor

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    53 sever Low T Advise

    I had sever trama and I am on an anti deprsent that is a party drug for 20+ers Xanax 8mg daily and 5 Hydrocodone perscribed by legit Pain management Group, not pll mill I hate the Crap but they make partial life function possible. I was a hard core supplement guy in my mid 20's easier to say what I didn't do than what I did do. Now I have an MD that dropped his teeth at my low T level.

    I have never used HCG the way described in this thread but that was 30 years ago. my thought was nano, 300 sus, DB & HCG . I suffer from sever joint pain and depression 0 labido and I used to be a player and now I am a shut in almost. If my Doc that perscribed AndroGel to the price tag of $700.00 a pump container why would he not go for my idea or how should I present from the proper perpective medically ?

    HELP

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuzzardMarinePumper View Post
    I had sever trama and I am on an anti deprsent that is a party drug for 20+ers Xanax 8mg daily and 5 Hydrocodone perscribed by legit Pain management Group, not pll mill I hate the Crap but they make partial life function possible. I was a hard core supplement guy in my mid 20's easier to say what I didn't do than what I did do. Now I have an MD that dropped his teeth at my low T level.

    I have never used HCG the way described in this thread but that was 30 years ago. my thought was nano, 300 sus, DB & HCG . I suffer from sever joint pain and depression 0 labido and I used to be a player and now I am a shut in almost. If my Doc that perscribed AndroGel to the price tag of $700.00 a pump container why would he not go for my idea or how should I present from the proper perpective medically ?

    HELP
    Start a new thread in the general HRT forum. Tell us everything about yourself and post any recent blood work if you have it.

    We'll take it from there...

  18. #98
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    Thank you ! I'm on it !

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    Delete
    Last edited by BuzzardMarinePumper; 11-15-2012 at 12:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    Does HCG automatically equate to higher E2 levels?

    It can, but generally seen in higher doses like >500iu daily. There should be no need to dose greater then 350iu daily. This is one peptide where smaller doses more frequently is better. When E2 is elevated it can do so in the testes where an AI is largely ineffective in controlling. If you were diagnosed as Secondary Hypogonadal you will most likely see an increase in natural production...which is a good thing

    Back filling the pathways is always a good thing for many reasons. If you don't go with a transdermal cream look for micronized pills; 25mg of each twice daily will do the trick!
    I was wondering about this! I know I've heard of some people complaining that hCG made them look 'soft' or retain water from the increased E2 levels, but I hadn't thought about the high doses and/or frequency (and looking soft and/or bloated doesn't sound like a very fun way to live if you're going to be taking it long term along with TRT, so I've been hesitant to add it, but if it tends to happen mostly just at higher doses that makes me less hesitant about it).
    This is a great sticky! Very informative.

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    I don't knwo why HCG would ever make someone look "soft" and never heard that as a side effect unless of course E2 is elevated and a man retains water which would explain it.

    HCG is a very safe peptide that does wonderful things for men when administered correctly.

    I love the stuff!

  22. #102
    zdudezdud is offline New Member
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    any thoughts on the preg+dhea patch by ageforce
    thanks

  23. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by zdudezdud View Post
    any thoughts on the preg+dhea patch by ageforce
    thanks
    HGH patch? Creatine patch? Pre workout patch? They offer some interesting stuff. The Preg+dhea is probably the only thing I see that could remotely be probably but due to the other magic patches they offer I would steer clear of anything they have to offer.

    The HGH patch really cracked me up BTW

  24. #104
    zdudezdud is offline New Member
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    Good point and that is what I was thinking but I'm going to give the patch a try for a month or so and get some bloods and I'll report back.

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    hello, i am new and was told that i might get good advice on this thread,

    i am 35 years old, 5 foot 7 and 280 pounds. i was 305 but was on hgh for a bit ( off shore black market ) and lost a few pounds. i went to a doctor and he started me on 100 mg per week testosterone . i have been doin it for 3 weeks and he uped it to 200mg (100mg twice a week) and also gave me cytomel 25mg per day. i will be starting the hcg diet tomorrow. 500 cal per day thing.

    i was curios if this was a good combo? wasnt really tested yet except for normal blood work. does this sound right? or should i up my test? any help would be appreciated.

    thanks.

  26. #106
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    ^^ Rob this is a stickie and not the area I was suggesting. Go back to this main page of this forum so your thread is posted underneath the red ones which are stickies and start a thread specifically for you.

    Does this make sense?

  27. #107
    robkar is offline New Member
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    haha,, at this point nothing makes sense,,, wow, i am so lost when it comes to forums, haha... thank you so much for guiding me,, ill get it sooner or later, ha...


    ok, lets try this again.

  28. #108
    zdudezdud is offline New Member
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    ok well I ordered the patches from ageforce suppose I can say that since one of the sponsors sells the product. Well, I had a question and I emailed them asking what percentage of the DHEA + Pregnenolone are absorbed from the patch. They email me back and say 98% I email back asking how they know this for sure? Ask if they have any studies to confirm this as many TD patches only deliver a small amount of product which is the reason there is more mg in the actual patch than is delivered. Anyway Steve from ageforce sent me this email back
    "We are not going to get into an email debate with you. If you would like to learn more about this and how we make our claim, please give us a call, or we can call you if that is your preference"

    So of course I call him and I am treated as rude as I have ever been treated by any company, Steve was very nasty when I asked for studies or some solid information about the percent of delivery. So this is my story with ageforce.

  29. #109
    fm2002 is offline Associate Member
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    GD,

    About two years ago I had a full, full BW done and a very well known HRT doc told me among other things that my Preg was low. I just moved and can't find all my folders with all my BW's or I would tell you how low. Anyway he prescribed Preg cream, but than in passing he mentioned don't use too much as it can cause hair loss. Is this true and was I an asshole for not using it at all for this reason. Also if my Preg levels were just slightly low could hcg supplementation raise them enough? Lastly, the hcg protocol you mention only stretches out to every 7th day of T shots. What if one is doing T shots every 10th day?

    My protocol as pertains to this discussion
    150mg Test Eth IM every 10 days
    250iu hcg Sub Q 9th and 10th day
    1/2mg Arimidex every 4th day
    50mg DHEA EOD

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    Lots going on with your post and you're working with a Doc who is not trained properly.

    Let's start with Pregnenolone cream; it does not cause hair lose no matter how you take it. He's confusing it with transdermal Testosterone gels/creams that can interact with SQ Aromatase enzymes and for some men this converts to higher levels of DHT which causes hair loss.

    I've never heard of this happening with Pregnenlone as it too far upstream from that to happen.

    I used to be a believer in transdermal Preg and DHEA creams but for me it didn't work well and was expensive (probably didn't absorb well and there are papers out there that indicate that both probably don't absorb well enough to get serum levels to optimal levels so I am back on pills that are micronized...at least for me).

    HCG is not going to raise your preg or DHEA levels enough as both need to be at the high end of the reference range...especially DHEA.

    OP:
    My protocol as pertains to this discussion
    150mg Test Eth IM every 10 days
    Need to go to at least every 7 days and better twice a week...learn about Testosterone half life.

    250iu hcg Sub Q 9th and 10th day
    Too far out but it's tied to your every 10 day Test injection. He's spreading you too far out by a few days but it adds up.

    1/2mg Arimidex every 4th day
    This seems really excessive. An AI like Arimidex is a very powerful antagonist and .5mg every 4 days on just 150mg of Test every ten days is probably tanking your E2 levels...can you post most recent BW?

    50mg DHEA EOD
    Add in 50mg of Preg as well and make sure the DHEA is micronized.
    Last edited by steroid.com 1; 12-01-2012 at 02:20 AM.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    Lots going on with your post and you're working with a Doc who is not trained properly.

    Let's start with Pregnenolone cream; it does not cause hair lose no matter how you take it. He's confusing it with transdermal Testosterone gels/creams that can interact with SQ Aromatase enzymes and for some men this converts to higher levels of DHT which causes hair loss.

    I've never heard of this happening with Pregnenlone as it too far upstream from that to happen.

    I used to be a believer in transdermal Preg and DHEA creams but for me it didn't work well and was expensive (probably didn't absorb well and there are papers out there that indicate that both probably don't absorb well enough to get serum levels to optimal levels so I am back on pills that are micronized...at least for me).

    HCG is not going to raise your preg or DHEA levels enough as both need to be at the high end of the reference range...especially DHEA.

    OP:
    My protocol as pertains to this discussion
    150mg Test Eth IM every 10 days
    Need to go to at least every 7 days and better twice a week...learn about Testosterone half life.

    250iu hcg Sub Q 9th and 10th day
    Too far out but it's tied to your every 10 day Test injection. He's spreading you too far out by a few days but it adds up.

    1/2mg Arimidex every 4th day
    This seems really excessive. An AI like Arimidex is a very powerful antagonist and .5mg every 4 days on just 150mg of Test every ten days is probably tanking your E2 levels...can you post most recent BW?

    50mg DHEA EOD
    Add in 50mg of Preg as well and make sure the DHEA is micronized.
    Thanks for the reply

    Everything I read says Testosterone Enanthate half life is 10.5 days

    The hcg I added myself w/o consulting my doc, which I haven't seen in some time. Will be seeing him in May when I'm back in the states.

    I'll keep looking for my folders which have all my BW's and if I find will post.

    Should the Preg be micronized as well?

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    "Should the Preg be micronized as well"?

    Yes, not easy to find, but Google it and you will find it.

  33. #113
    asiandudexxx is offline Junior Member
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    Not sure if I'm allowed to name the company, but the one I buy all my supplements from has their own brand of DHEA and Pregnenolone. Pretty cheap, but it doesn't say micronized on the product details page. I had to email the customer service representative to confirm it. So word to the wise, when in doubt just shoot them an email.

    Also while I'm here, I was prescribed hCG at 1000 IU every 3 days for an hCG challenge test. The sticky says to not exceed 500 IU in a 24 hour period, but is this situation an exception? Should I split it up to something like 500 IU every 1.5 days or 350 IU every day?

  34. #114
    fm2002 is offline Associate Member
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    GD,

    I've had 3 2x250iu hcg injections. I'm still on a Test Eth 10 day cycle. I also cut back on my Arimidex from 1/2 every 4th day to 1/4. I should of just changed one at a time to isolate cause and affect, but that said I've have felt a noticeable difference. More overall energy, better performance in the weight room. Libido about the same or a bit down. Negatives have been a bit grumpy/agitated, haven't ever been a good sleeper, but even more so now and acne has come back. I'm guessing most of this is attributed to the hcg except may be the acne which could be both. The difference is so much I'm thinking of cutting my Test Eth from 150 to 125.

    Your thoughts

    P.S. Found a reputable source for DHEA and Preg. Both micronized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by asiandudexxx View Post
    Not sure if I'm allowed to name the company, but the one I buy all my supplements from has their own brand of DHEA and Pregnenolone. Pretty cheap, but it doesn't say micronized on the product details page. I had to email the customer service representative to confirm it. So word to the wise, when in doubt just shoot them an email.

    Also while I'm here, I was prescribed hCG at 1000 IU every 3 days for an hCG challenge test. The sticky says to not exceed 500 IU in a 24 hour period, but is this situation an exception? Should I split it up to something like 500 IU every 1.5 days or 350 IU every day?
    What is an HCG challenge test???

    Your testicles have so many receptors on the leydig cells so over dosing isn't going to do anything but drive up E2 which is the last thing you want.

    With HCG it's better for lower doses more frequently.

    Ideally, something like 100 iu ED would be perfect IMO.

  36. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by fm2002 View Post
    GD,

    I've had 3 2x250iu hcg injections. I'm still on a Test Eth 10 day cycle. I also cut back on my Arimidex from 1/2 every 4th day to 1/4. I should of just changed one at a time to isolate cause and affect, but that said I've have felt a noticeable difference. More overall energy, better performance in the weight room. Libido about the same or a bit down. Negatives have been a bit grumpy/agitated, haven't ever been a good sleeper, but even more so now and acne has come back. I'm guessing most of this is attributed to the hcg except may be the acne which could be both. The difference is so much I'm thinking of cutting my Test Eth from 150 to 125.

    Your thoughts

    P.S. Found a reputable source for DHEA and Preg. Both micronized.
    Time for blood work...anything I tell you now if pure speculation.

    I want to see E2 serum levels after your comments to be honest.

  37. #117
    asiandudexxx is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    What is an HCG challenge test???

    Your testicles have so many receptors on the leydig cells so over dosing isn't going to do anything but drive up E2 which is the last thing you want.

    With HCG it's better for lower doses more frequently.

    Ideally, something like 100 iu ED would be perfect IMO.
    I just spoke with him and he said it is to evalute my leydig cell function, see the degree and speed of my aromatization, and have a more specific diagnosis. This dosage would only last a month followed up by bloodwork to see where my numbers are at. I have that faith he knows what he's doing so I'm gonna stick with his prescribed treatment.

    I guess at this point I'm just wondering what I can expect as far as sides at that dosage for that short duration.

  38. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by asiandudexxx View Post
    I just spoke with him and he said it is to evalute my leydig cell function, see the degree and speed of my aromatization, and have a more specific diagnosis. This dosage would only last a month followed up by bloodwork to see where my numbers are at. I have that faith he knows what he's doing so I'm gonna stick with his prescribed treatment.

    I guess at this point I'm just wondering what I can expect as far as sides at that dosage for that short duration.
    He's using you like a lab rat.

    Wants to see how you respond to high dosages of HCG :

    1. It's effect on Testosterone serum levels
    2. It's effect on E2
    3. Testicular function

    You can do this but I don't see the point, these effects are well documented.

    Depending upon how you respond (we're all different) you can expect elevated E2 and all the negative sides that come with that.

  39. #119
    asiandudexxx is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    He's using you like a lab rat.

    Wants to see how you respond to high dosages of HCG :

    1. It's effect on Testosterone serum levels
    2. It's effect on E2
    3. Testicular function

    You can do this but I don't see the point, these effects are well documented.

    Depending upon how you respond (we're all different) you can expect elevated E2 and all the negative sides that come with that.
    In a way yes, but it seems like a necessary evil in order to get a better diagnosis and figure out an optimal treatment for me. He told me that if hCG became part of my long term treatment he would definitely lower the does and provide an AI if necessary.

    I feel like a dummy because I didn't realize that "hCG stimulation test" is what it is most commonly called and am getting much more google hits now. It is a diagnostic test that is considered the "gold standard" in evaluating leydig cell function and also rules out other possible co-morbidities. Some studies and treatments used up to 5000 IU a day(!), which is considered the norm. I found some literature and posts from doctors on other forums but don't think I'm allowed to post it up.

  40. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdevine View Post
    Time for blood work...anything I tell you now if pure speculation.

    I want to see E2 serum levels after your comments to be honest.
    You and I both. It's difficult where I live now to get the proper BW's done.

    But I'm here to tell you that I know my body and have been working out for quite some time and something happen !

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