Clomid Instead of TRT ??!!

**Fit N Fun** · 09-22-2011, 06:52 AM

Took my last 25mg Clomid + 20mg Tamoxifen 25 days ago and feel my libido has been pretty good again for the last week, takes me forever to get over Clomid.

I took Clomid + Tamoxifen for 5 weeks in Total with my nuts the size of plumbs for the last three weeks.

You might want to stop the Clomid once your nuts have been completely swollen for a few weeks.

For me it has been around three weeks after Clomid to get my sex drive back.

**jimmy79** · 09-23-2011, 11:55 AM

Remember that Clomid inhibits estrogen receptors in your hypothalamus.
Visual blurring is a side effect.
It can also make you emotionally sensitive & tearful in the long term because your brain is basicaly not picking up any estrogen. (Thats why it then increases testosterone )

If I were you I'd rather go for the Testosterone shots and when you want kids just swap to the Clomid for a while :-)

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 09-23-2011, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by jimmy79

Remember that Clomid inhibits estrogen receptors in your hypothalamus.
Visual blurring is a side effect.
It can also make you emotionally sensitive & tearful in the long term because your brain is basicaly not picking up any estrogen. (Thats why it then increases testosterone )

If I were you I'd rather go for the Testosterone shots and when you want kids just swap to the Clomid for a while :-)

His Clomid therapy is temporary and not permanent. It is a healing process, not a hormonal replacement process. If you research this you will learn more.

**double chicken** · 10-14-2011, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk

His Clomid therapy is temporary and not permanent. It is a healing process, not a hormonal replacement process. If you research this you will learn more.

no, if clomid works it will be permanent.

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 10-14-2011, 02:26 PM

So the doc plans on keeping you on Clomid for life?

**double chicken** · 10-27-2011, 02:45 PM

Ok, so i was on 25 mg for 6 weeks and then upped it to 50 mg for the last 9 weeks.
I have bloodwork scheduled in a couple of weeks but I only feel about 20% better.
So I think I am going to push for Testosterone but want to walk in armed with Crisler's TRT protocal.
I have been to his site a couple of times and can't seem to find exaclty what his protocal is?
Any help in this would be appreciated.

**bass** · 10-27-2011, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by double chicken

Ok, so i was on 25 mg for 6 weeks and then upped it to 50 mg for the last 9 weeks.
I have bloodwork scheduled in a couple of weeks but I only feel about 20% better.
So I think I am going to push for Testosterone but want to walk in armed with Crisler's TRT protocal.
I have been to his site a couple of times and can't seem to find exaclty what his protocal is?
Any help in this would be appreciated.

Standard TRT protocol for men is,
100-200 mgs test ew, or split dose twice a week.
AI, 1 mgs per 100 mgs test.
HCG , 250 IU eod or 500 IU twice a week, but this is tailored to the individual.

Ask your doctor about AI and hCG , AI is to prevent test from converting to E2.
hCG is to keep your balls from shrinking.

**kelkel** · 10-27-2011, 07:24 PM

Protocols are there in Crislers papers. You've got bloodwork coming up in a couple weeks so print out his initial BW protocol and ask your doc to do it. It will give you a good baseline. Follow-up is in there too. You treatment has to be tailored to you as we are all different and our bodies metabolize exogenous substances differently. One mans meat is another mans poison, so to speak. Also make sure you read the stickies on this forum. Great info there!.

Good luck, keep us posted.

^^Bass is on target...

**GotNoBlueMilk** · 10-28-2011, 05:57 AM

double chicken: Clomid makes most people feel like crap. Especially at the 50mg+ level. Any SERM makes my libido tank; which I find interestesting because extremely low E2 does not do that to me.

Anyway, I always thought your clomid treatment was temporary just to restart your own Test production. Like doing PCT. I can't imagine being on a SERM for life. So if you can't get off clomid and have your hormone levels up where they need to be, then HRT is the way to go in my mind.

Good luck with your doc.

**double chicken** · 10-28-2011, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by GotNoBlueMilk

double chicken: Clomid makes most people feel like crap. Especially at the 50mg+ level. Any SERM makes my libido tank; which I find interestesting because extremely low E2 does not do that to me.

Anyway, I always thought your clomid treatment was temporary just to restart your own Test production. Like doing PCT. I can't imagine being on a SERM for life. So if you can't get off clomid and have your hormone levels up where they need to be, then HRT is the way to go in my mind.

Good luck with your doc.

Yes, since I have been on 50 mg i have felt worse and my labido dissappeared. I need to start TRT.

**double chicken** · 10-28-2011, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Protocols are there in Crislers papers. You've got bloodwork coming up in a couple weeks so print out his initial BW protocol and ask your doc to do it. It will give you a good baseline. Follow-up is in there too. You treatment has to be tailored to you as we are all different and our bodies metabolize exogenous substances differently. One mans meat is another mans poison, so to speak. Also make sure you read the stickies on this forum. Great info there!.

Good luck, keep us posted.

^^Bass is on target...

Thats just it. I cant find his protocol, I have done a bunch of google searches to no avail.

**Fred40** · 10-28-2011, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by double chicken

Thats just it. I cant find his protocol, I have done a bunch of google searches to no avail.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/publications.html

**Fred40** · 10-28-2011, 11:06 AM

I've been taking 25mg of clomid 3x/week along with my 100mg of test cyp. and .75mg of Arimidex .

I'm doing this because I'm not on HCG and I didn't want my balls to vanish. (I could care less about actual fertility....had a vasectomy years ago).

Seems to be working just fine. No sides at all at this level.

**vinceproduction** · 11-05-2011, 12:06 AM

I was on TRT for a year 300mg eow from my primary care doc. He got worried because my liver enzymes were up, cholesterol was up, and he wanted to take me off completely. So I asked about HCG , he referred me to an Endo. That endo put me on Clomid 50mg ed, and I have a follow up Nov 22. My Labs pre Clomid were (pre-clomid, 14 days since 200mg test cyp) FSH .1, LH < .1, Prolactin 12.4, Total Testosterone 234, Free 53, SHBG 14. So far feeling the no libido which sucks, but other than that, feeling decent... not as good as with Test, but I do want more kids.

**Lemonada8** · 11-05-2011, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by double chicken

Yes, since I have been on 50 mg i have felt worse and my labido dissappeared. I need to start TRT.

No you need to back down to 25mg. You never said any of those issues untill after u were on 50mg. 25mg is standard for a extended time period, there is no need to go up to 50mg. You aren't coming off a cycle so no need to try and jump start it.
Don't use hcg either it will have to much LH stimulation and with higher doses it lowers response to LHRH. Also you are 33 and have a healthy FSH level so clomid was a very smart option from your doc, seems he knows what he is doing.

**double chicken** · 11-08-2011, 01:50 PM

Just received blood work:

Testosterone Serum 525 ng/dl (348-1197)
Free Testosterone 8.5 pg/ml (8.7-25.1)
LH 10.4 mIU/L (1.7-8.6)
FSH 12.4 mIU/L (1.5-12.4)

**bass** · 11-08-2011, 02:09 PM

well the only thing i see is your free T way too low! so what now?

**double chicken** · 11-08-2011, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by bass

well the only thing i see is your free T way too low! so what now?

Yeah, my testosterone Serum all though in range is very low as well.
Not sure what happens now.

**l2elapse** · 11-08-2011, 06:24 PM

sorry havent read most but Clomid as a source for TRT is not as good as it seems. My doctor like you started with clomid first and yes it increases testosterone but he just attended a seminar in Harvard and the conclusion is you will get a raise in Test but not fully experience the effects of a true rise in testosterone

**Lemonada8** · 11-08-2011, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by l2elapse

sorry havent read most but Clomid as a source for TRT is not as good as it seems. My doctor like you started with clomid first and yes it increases testosterone but he just attended a seminar in Harvard and the conclusion is you will get a raise in Test but not fully experience the effects of a true rise in testosterone

It will raise test levels to a degree, but too much for too long of a time will end up lowering sensitivity to LHRH which slows production of Test.
It also acts like a estrogen at the liver, which makes SHBG *as i say more below*
Without something to control the production of SHBG (which gets higher as we get older anyways) It would be counter-productive for TRT. For fertility issues however it is a prime choice (usually cuz the person is younger and the SHBG isnt as high)
The OP wants more kids, so for now clomid is the better choics. Test-rebound doesnt work as good, from the things ive seen/read/heard. IMO thats why if you want kids and TRT, you should try to do what you can w/o TRT first then if TRT is a must then make sure to use HCG to help keep everything going.. and with a good TRT dose for the individual body the extra test wont inhibit LH and FSH too much

Originally Posted by double chicken

Just received blood work:

Testosterone Serum 525 ng/dl (348-1197)
Free Testosterone 8.5 pg/ml (8.7-25.1)
LH 10.4 mIU/L (1.7-8.6)
FSH 12.4 mIU/L (1.5-12.4)

That is because you doubled your dose. Clomid acts like an estrogen at the liver where SHBG is made, and that is a big cause for a low free test. Too much SHBG will hold on to the test longer so the free test in the blood will get used more resulting in a lower Free test level.

**l2elapse** · 11-08-2011, 07:34 PM

Ah didnt see the part where he wanted kids

**double chicken** · 11-09-2011, 12:21 PM

So here is my recent history followed up by the big question.
Before Clomid:
1. Total Test: 344 ng/dl (249-836) 31 percentile of range
2. Free Test: 6.9 pg/ml (8.7-25.1) Below range
3. LH: 2.9 mlU/mL (1.7-8.6) 28 percentile of range
4. FSH: 6.1 mLU/mL (1.5-12.4) 43 percentile of range
After 6 weeks on 25mg Clomid:
1. Total Test: 520.44 ng/dl (350-890) 42 percentile of range
2. Free Test: 100.8 pg/ml (47.0-244.0) 34 percentile of range
After 9 weeks on 50mg Clomid:
1. Total Test: 525 ng/dl (348-1197) 34 percentile of range
2. Free Test: 8.5 pg/ml (8.7-25.1) Below range
3. LH: 10.4 mIU/mL (1.7-8.6) Above range
4. FSH: 12.4 mIU/mL (1.5-12.4) 100 percentile of range
After 9 week BW (10/31/11) I have gone back to 25 mg dosage.
My wife is due February March 1st with our first child. Then we want to have the second child soon after at which time we will be done having children.
So I guess the real question is: Do I start TRT now and feel great until it is time to impregnate wife and take the chance of not being able OR do I stick it out on 25mg of Clomid for the next year feeling just slightly less miserable?

**double chicken** · 11-09-2011, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

It will raise test levels to a degree, but too much for too long of a time will end up lowering sensitivity to LHRH which slows production of Test.
It also acts like a estrogen at the liver, which makes SHBG *as i say more below*
Without something to control the production of SHBG (which gets higher as we get older anyways) It would be counter-productive for TRT. For fertility issues however it is a prime choice (usually cuz the person is younger and the SHBG isnt as high)
The OP wants more kids, so for now clomid is the better choics. Test-rebound doesnt work as good, from the things ive seen/read/heard. IMO thats why if you want kids and TRT, you should try to do what you can w/o TRT first then if TRT is a must then make sure to use HCG to help keep everything going.. and with a good TRT dose for the individual body the extra test wont inhibit LH and FSH too much

That is because you doubled your dose. Clomid acts like an estrogen at the liver where SHBG is made, and that is a big cause for a low free test. Too much SHBG will hold on to the test longer so the free test in the blood will get used more resulting in a lower Free test level.

Thanks Lemenada for the advice. Would you read my last post and still see if you still think the clomid route is the right one?

**Lemonada8** · 11-09-2011, 01:58 PM

After 6 weeks on 25mg Clomid :
1. Total Test : 520.44 ng/dl (350-890) 42 percentile of range
2. Free Test : 100.8 pg/ml (47.0-244.0) 34 percentile of range

This shows that 25mg clomid is perfect for your needs. I would hold off on TRT untill you have the kids you want already in the making. TRT isnt as effective for fertility as clomid is, not saying its not possible just not as good.

**LaBelva** · 11-09-2011, 02:30 PM

Doc also prescribed me .25mg of Clomid ED for life. Followup every six months, but so far so good. Only difference is Im 23 and Test levels are at 450. PM if you have any questions about the difference in treatments!

**double chicken** · 11-09-2011, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by LaBelva

Doc also prescribed me .25mg of Clomid ED for life. Followup every six months, but so far so good. Only difference is Im 23 and Test levels are at 450. PM if you have any questions about the difference in treatments!

What was the range for your 450?

**LaBelva** · 11-09-2011, 03:00 PM

I believe she said 250-1000. Dont have my other results on hand but I know my Prolactin was up by .8 twice and she told me I would have to get an MRI on my pituitary gland. I made a thread about my situation in this forum.