Just got my first script for Test. Cyp.

**Cacu** · 09-03-2011, 02:59 AM

HOw are you feeling on TRT? Are there any sides that you may have noticed or suspect?

**Fred40** · 09-03-2011, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by xavierlafleur

Hi and I'm happy you got your testosterone .
Could you tell us how giving yourself the injections go. I've been under TRT for a long time and the nurse at my clinic gives the injections.

No problems with self injecting. Draw with a larger needle (22 gauge) and then inject with a 25 gauge. Fairly painless but I'm considering trying a 27 to see if there are even fewer drops of blood when I pull in out.

Originally Posted by Cacu

HOw are you feeling on TRT? Are there any sides that you may have noticed or suspect?

Only about 4 weeks in but I can tell a difference. More energy and better overall libido.....but I am having some sides. Definitely retaining fluids....I'd say about 6-7 pounds worth. I don't like that and I think it's driving my BP up as well (need to check it). I'm not currently on any AI's though and I think that might help big time. I'm going to schedule a blood test for this week and see what's going on.

**steroid.com 1** · 09-03-2011, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Fred40

No problems with self injecting. Draw with a larger needle (22 gauge) and then inject with a 25 gauge. Fairly painless but I'm considering trying a 27 to see if there are even fewer drops of blood when I pull in out.

Only about 4 weeks in but I can tell a difference. More energy and better overall libido.....but I am having some sides. Definitely retaining fluids....I'd say about 6-7 pounds worth. I don't like that and I think it's driving my BP up as well (need to check it). I'm not currently on any AI's though and I think that might help big time. I'm going to schedule a blood test for this week and see what's going on.

That's why you are retaining water...

**Fred40** · 09-03-2011, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

That's why you are retaining water...

That's what I figured.

For right now I'm downing water like it's free and I really need to work on my diet.....it's not great and has been rather sodium heavy. I've never really been too sodium sensitive in the past though.

**Fred40** · 09-16-2011, 09:04 PM

My Dr is trying. He ordered a sensitive E2 test (along with Total T, Free T and another PSA) but now the lab they use says they have no idea what a "sensitive assay" is. ???

They said they never heard of such a thing and only perform the standard Estradoil (E2) test....but that it gives a male range.

What a hassle.

**steroid.com 1** · 09-19-2011, 07:19 PM

Fred - Go to Lab Corp...they are the Gold Standard for bloodwork. They are everywhere...

Oh yea, the "male range" they are talking about is at the flat part of the curve and can be very inaccurate.

**Fred40** · 09-20-2011, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

Fred - Go to Lab Corp...they are the Gold Standard for bloodwork. They are everywhere...

Oh yea, the "male range" they are talking about is at the flat part of the curve and can be very inaccurate.

Thanks. Looks like I have it worked out. They are willing to use the MAYO Labs which does have a more sensitive E2 test - Mayo Labs #81816 (uses LC-MS/MS)
Reference range for males: 10 - 40 pg/mL. It's one that came recommended from Dr. Crisler's site. I'm at six weeks now and it will be interesting to see the results. I'll be shocked if my E2 is not high......I have many of the symptoms.

**bass** · 09-20-2011, 04:15 PM

just to let you know i am still following this thread, so i am looking forward to see the results.

**clajacks** · 09-21-2011, 04:43 PM

I am in my early 30's. Is that too early to approach GP about Low-testosterone ? My friend, who is a doctor ~50 yrs old, swears by it and human growth hormone which he takes. Any approaches to broach subject with GP would be great.

**clajacks** · 09-21-2011, 04:45 PM

I am in my early 30's. Is that too early to approach GP about Low-testosterone ? My friend, who is a doctor ~50 yrs old, swears by it and human growth hormone which he takes. Any approaches to broach subject with GP would be great.

He said they write at 30 yrs, with test.

**Dpyle** · 09-21-2011, 05:09 PM

Clajacks, you need to start your own thread in the hrt forum, but the answer is no. I'm 26 and battling symptoms of low T. If you start your own thread there are many people on the site that can and will offer A LOT of good advice.

**steroid.com 1** · 09-21-2011, 06:52 PM

[QUOTE=Dpyle;5755726]Clajacks, you need to start your own thread in the hrt forum, but the answer is no. I'm 26 and battling symptoms of low T. If you start your own thread there are many people on the site that can and will offer A LOT of good advice.[/QUOTE]

Took the words right out of my mouth...

**Fred40** · 09-29-2011, 08:37 AM

When I do start taking an AI (like Arimidex ) my preference would be to take it M-W-F with my injection day being Monday (100mg Test Cyp.).

My first thought was to take .5mg on Monday evening and then .25mg on Wednesday and Friday. Thoughts?

**zaggahamma** · 09-29-2011, 09:33 AM

sound plan

**Fred40** · 09-30-2011, 10:17 AM

Got my 6 week results:

E2 - 50 (high) Range 10-40 - I think we all saw this one coming.

Total T - 963 Range 240-950

Free T - 28.9 Range 9-30

PSA - 1.62 - Was 1.75 six weeks ago so I'm not worried about that but will of course keep an eye on it.

So after these results what does my GP say --- "cut your dose in half" WTF???

Besides needing some Arimidex I think my numbers look GREAT. I certainly feel better than before TRT.

Now I got the blood taken on Friday after a Monday injection. I'm assuming that these are PEAK numbers....yes? I certainly feel like my T peaks on Thursday & Friday. So I'm assuming that my T numbers are actually a little lower the rest of the week.

I was hoping I wouldn't be one of those who had to go down this road, guess I shouldn't be surprised given his lack of TRT knowledge.

**steroid.com 1** · 09-30-2011, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Fred40

Got my 6 week results:

E2 - 50 (high) Range 10-40 - I think we all saw this one coming.
E2 Sensitivity Panel? Indeed and why you had the sides you had. Needs to come down by half as it's converting the Test you are injecting.

Total T - 963 Range 240-950
SWEET! But remember, Bio Available and/or Percent Free are more important at this juncture.

Free T - 28.9 Range 9-30
Now we're talking Fred!!!

PSA - 1.62 - Was 1.75 six weeks ago so I'm not worried about that but will of course keep an eye on it.
Ok

So after these results what does my GP say --- "cut your dose in half" WTF???
Exactly, and what was his medical reasoning for that suggestion??? Keep in mind, if he puts you on an AI that will supress the E2 conversion via aromatization so your Test levels will increase but you would reduce on after the next round of BW if that's the case.

Besides needing some Arimidex I think my numbers look GREAT. I certainly feel better than before TRT.
These do look good and good for you Fred! Do you have SHBG, Albumin, Progesterone, Cortisol...?

Now I got the blood taken on Friday after a Monday injection. I'm assuming that these are PEAK numbers....yes?
Correct.

I certainly feel like my T peaks on Thursday & Friday. So I'm assuming that my T numbers are actually a little lower the rest of the week.
Depending upon how you metabolize but reasonable assumption.

I was hoping I wouldn't be one of those who had to go down this road, guess I shouldn't be surprised given his lack of TRT knowledge.

You need to get your E2 down. Did you explain the need for an AI to do that? Are you going to self medicate the AI?

.

**zaggahamma** · 09-30-2011, 01:10 PM

why would the idiot say cut in half...such a douche...i would have asked him what level he was wanting to achieve with half the dose

**Fred40** · 09-30-2011, 02:11 PM

This was all on the phone with one of his nurses. I have an appointment to go see him next Thursday.

I was waiting to get the results before I acted on any E2 issues. I have now begun taking Arimidex (had some on hand, thanks to those who PM'd reliable and inexpensive sources) and will take it at my above listed intervals and amounts = 1mg/week.

**steroid.com 1** · 09-30-2011, 05:28 PM

1 mg / wk of AI on how much Test Fred?

Take the AI 12 to 24 hours from your injection;Test and Arimidex have "approximately" the same half life so both will peak at about the same time...more or less.

If you are splitting you Test twice a week then split your AI and do the same.

You should be in fine shape my man

**Fred40** · 09-30-2011, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by gdevine

1 mg / wk of AI on how much Test Fred?

I'm currently on 100mg/week. Single injection on Monday mornings.

I was planning on doing .5mg of Arimidex on Monday evening and then .25 on Wednesday & Friday. Unless you have a better suggestion. I would prefer a regular three day schedule like M-W-F or even T-T-S. something I can repeat every week with taking it on different days of the week.

If my GP insists on cutting the does in half after I see him on Thursday then I will be making an appointment to see Dr Crisler in Lansing. He's only about 2hrs from me.

**steroid.com 1** · 10-01-2011, 10:43 AM

I like your AI schedule Fred. Crisler in my opinion is your best option. This guy ROCKS!

**bass** · 10-01-2011, 10:10 PM

Fred, i think you got it under control, but like JP said what a douche! all your levels are within the normal range with the exception of E2, why would he want to fvck with that! tell him, say doc my ranges are within the normal rage and i fee great, i don't want to change anything, be demanding! BTW your PSA is great i wouldn't worry about it too much but like you said just keep an eye on it. did you abstain from sex for at least 48 hours?

**Fred40** · 10-02-2011, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by bass

did you abstain from sex for at least 48 hours?

I did this time but I'm pretty sure I didn't the first time......the difference: 1.75 & 1.62

**Fred40** · 10-03-2011, 12:59 PM

So my workouts have been going pretty good since I started TRT....still need to up the cardio.

Before TRT I had become quite the couch potato. I would force myself to workout once or twice a week but these where extremely minimal. I would literally hit everything in a single workout with most being just 2 sets. For example my chest workout consisted of 2 sets x 8-10 reps with 145lbs (yeah....I know, but I'm not a big guy).

Six weeks later and I have broken things up into: Chest/Triceps on day one; Back/Biceps on day two & Legs/shoulders/forearms on day three. Abs get hit each time.

My chest workout is now a warm up set with 135lbs (10 reps), a warm up set with 155lbs (8 reps), 175lbs for 6 reps, 180lbs for 6 reps x3. Then I do 3-4 sets of incline dumbell presses for 10 reps each. Seems like a decent increase from two sets of 145lbs for 8 reps.

I do have to be careful not to overdue it. I think my muscles are responding a lot faster than my joints or tendons care to. No major injuries but I do have (tennis elbow) on one arm and a sore tendon on my other shoulder. These have been nagging issues for a while now. The shoulder does not really affect the bench.....but lateral shoulder raises are out out of the question. The elbow only really hurts on concentration curls.....but not too bad if I start out with the dumbell vertical....like doing screw curls.

Also.....how long does it take to drop the water weight after staring an AI?

**Bigfoot66** · 10-03-2011, 01:13 PM

That's a rough workout for someone who's just gotten back into it. I do one body part a day and not a whole lot of cardio so that I don't lose the mass I have gained.

I've been on a steady AI dosage for about 8 months...and to be honest in the last month or so I've seen the effects. I've lost about 10 pounds, and at first I thought it was mass, but my lifts have not decreased (really they continue to increase). My point of loss is evident in my waist...have gone from wearing 36 pants to 34, and that's the first time in years. My coat size remains 46L, so I can only attribute the loss to water weight.

When your E2 goes up you'll find yourself somewhat "out there" emotionally...I don't know how to explain it. So the stable dosage won't always keep your E2 level stable. I think the wind can affect your levels.

Originally Posted by Fred40

So my workouts have been going pretty good since I started TRT....still need to up the cardio.

Before TRT I had become quite the couch potato. I would force myself to workout once or twice a week but these where extremely minimal. I would literally hit everything in a single workout with most being just 2 sets. For example my chest workout consisted of 2 sets x 8-10 reps with 145lbs (yeah....I know, but I'm not a big guy).

Six weeks later and I have broken things up into: Chest/Triceps on day one; Back/Biceps on day two & Legs/shoulders/forearms on day three. Abs get hit each time.

My chest workout is now a warm up set with 135lbs (10 reps), a warm up set with 155lbs (8 reps), 175lbs for 6 reps, 180lbs for 6 reps x3. Then I do 3-4 sets of incline dumbell presses for 10 reps each. Seems like a decent increase from two sets of 145lbs for 8 reps.

I do have to be careful not to overdue it. I think my muscles are responding a lot faster than my joints or tendons care to. No major injuries but I do have (tennis elbow) on one arm and a sore tendon on my other shoulder. These have been nagging issues for a while now. The shoulder does not really affect the bench.....but lateral shoulder raises are out out of the question. The elbow only really hurts on concentration curls.....but not too bad if I start out with the dumbell vertical....like doing screw curls.

Also.....how long does it take to drop the water weight after staring an AI?

**Fred40** · 10-03-2011, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bigfoot66

That's a rough workout for someone who's just gotten back into it. I do one body part a day and not a whole lot of cardio so that I don't lose the mass I have gained.

Yes and no. I still have fairly long intervals between sets, probably too long really. As long as 2-3 minutes in between bench sets. I'm very slowly working on that.

I used to workout like this when I was younger.....only more sets and much faster intervals. I know I'm not 20 any more but I'm also not pushing myself to absolute failure either.

My biggest concern with going heavier is that I'll injure a wrist. That was my #1 lifting injury when I was younger. I use gloves with a wrist strap now. My wrists are only 6 3/4".

I will say that my form is much better now. No more back arching.....if I can't do a smooth controlled rep I don't do it. I don't mess with wide or narrow grips any more either.

**Fred40** · 10-06-2011, 11:30 PM

So I saw my GP today.

He (we.....really me but he agreed for now) decided not to cut my 100mg/week dosage in half. We are going to keep it right there.

My next test will be done right before an injection so see we can see the low end as well. It will also provide a good opportunity for me to see what the Arimidex is doing to my E2 levels.

So far I am still bloated. I for sure have gained some muscle mass though. How long after starting Arimidex should it be before the bloat starts to fade?

**zaggahamma** · 10-07-2011, 10:04 AM

good news bro

around a week give or take

**Fred40** · 10-13-2011, 02:25 PM

So I'm about 8 weeks in now with the TRT. I've definitely put on a little muscle mass and up'd my strength. Libido is much better and simply feel better/stronger/more energetic.

But I'm really sick of carrying the extra BF I'd picked up before starting TRT. I'm around 24% right now.

So I've started a diet. I want to drop as much fat as possible while at the same time keeping as much of the mass and strength I've added over the last two months.

Here is what I'm doing and I'm wondering if you all think this will work or if something else might work better:

Breakfast - Whey protein drink with skim milk = approximately 35-42 grams of protein.

Lunch - Whatever really but leaning towards higher protein foods - hard boiled eggs, tuna, chicken. I do eat carbs here as well.....some good (pasta, rice, potato etc...) some bad (Tostitos, chips etc.....I can't go cold turkey on everything bad).

Diner - Whey protein drink (a double if it's a lifting day). Might mix in a single tablespoon of peanut butter.....or through in a banana.

Trying to get right around 100mgs of protein on my "on days"

Total calories is hovering around 1500 a day give or take.

**bass** · 10-13-2011, 02:52 PM

my friend that is the worst diet for any kind, whether you are bulking or cutting! post all your stats so we can help you better, in fact it would be better to post it in the diet section. i am doing something that is working for me, i can share with you if you are interested, but first post your stats.

**NOSUPERMODEL** · 10-13-2011, 02:55 PM

^Agree with Bass. You are not eating enough. You are going to put your body into starvation mode and then you won't lose anything. Or if you do it will be muscle. I would have my 110lb wife eat more than 100 grams of protein in a day.

**Fred40** · 10-13-2011, 03:44 PM

44 years old 5' 9" 185lbs. Approximately 24% BF - I have broad shoulders but I'm definitely small boned.

For background I weighed in at 135lbs way back when I started college......came out at 155lbs all added muscle. I've never "cycled" or even taken much in the way of supplements.

I would love to add more muscle mass but my goal is not to be huge. I would guess my ideal weight at my current muscle mass would be in the neighborhood of 150-155lbs.

I think my "Dream Ideal" might be to get to a lean 175.......but I want to get lean first and foremost.

**bass** · 10-13-2011, 04:09 PM

you are same as my height! and i don't think you are 24% BF, you got to be less!

its really simple, you need to split your meals to 5 meals a day minimum.
eat at least 200 grams of protein mostly from real food, chicken breast, fish, red meat (London broil), cottage cheese, low fat milk, plain low fat yogurt, parmesan cheese.
cut carbs completely and only replenish one day a week, do this for two months then go back eating carbs for one month then repeat.
eat good fats like nuts, olive oil, butter, eggs, avocado...
eat fruits and veggies! stay away from banana. eat apples, cantaloupe, prunes.
drink plenty of water. no beer, soda or juices!
train with heavy weights, do lots of leg workouts, they have the largest muscle on your body and will consume the most calories.
eat about 2,500 cals a day from good foods as noted above.

you will gain weight but don't worry, thats your body reacting to your starvation mode as NoSupperModel noted! this will take few weeks until you see a difference, don't use a scale, use a mirror to see your progress. this worked great fro me. i was 21% BF according to a fat monitor and now i am hovering at about 17-17.5%. good luck!

**Fred40** · 10-13-2011, 04:20 PM

Ok.....I just did the OMROM hand held monitor and it said 20%. Guess it's been a while since I last did it.

I can see that my body has changed from 8 weeks ago......just not fast enough on the fat loss end. I weigh about the same as I did before starting TRT but it appears my BF has dropped some already.

I really want to get rid of the fat around my gut though. Clothes I bought just 18 months ago don't fit. I'm down to one pair of jeans that fit right and I refuse to buy larger.

**subnet** · 10-13-2011, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Fred40

Ok.....I just did the OMROM hand held monitor and it said 20%. Guess it's been a while since I last did it.

I can see that my body has changed from 8 weeks ago......just not fast enough on the fat loss end. I weigh about the same as I did before starting TRT but it appears my BF has dropped some already.

I really want to get rid of the fat around my gut though. Clothes I bought just 18 months ago don't fit. I'm down to one pair of jeans that fit right and I refuse to buy larger.

Fred, if you're like most of us here, you gained your extra fat over a period of years. Don't expect it to just all go away in such a short period. Weighing the same but dropping BF and going down pants size is AWESOME, and it means that you're slowly changing your body for the better. Stay the course, keep working out, and definitely work on your diet as a few people here have suggested. Keep at it and you'll continue to drop BF - slow and steady is the goal!

Oh, and don't take the OMROM body % as fact - they can be quite inaccurate.

**Fred40** · 10-13-2011, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by subnet

Fred, if you're like most of us here, you gained your extra fat over a period of years. Don't expect it to just all go away in such a short period. Weighing the same but dropping BF and going down pants size is AWESOME, and it means that you're slowly changing your body for the better. Stay the course, keep working out, and definitely work on your diet as a few people here have suggested. Keep at it and you'll continue to drop BF - slow and steady is the goal!

Oh, and don't take the OMROM body % as fact - they can be quite inaccurate.

Thanks....but i have NOT dropped any pants size at all so far. That's why I'm a little frustrated and was going on a somewhat drastic diet plan.

The OMRON is all that I have. Done properly (not dehydrated or over hydrated) it can be a good "guide". The actual number might be wrong.....but a downward trend should coincide nicely with an actual downward trend.

**Fred40** · 10-13-2011, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by bass

eat at least 200 grams of protein mostly from real food, chicken breast, fish, red meat (London broil), cottage cheese, low fat milk, plain low fat yogurt, parmesan cheese.

I don't have any issues with most of what you said.....but 200 grams a day is more than 1 gram per pound of body weight. Isn't that just a bit excessive?
That's is a lot of protein in a day. All of my research points at .7 - .8 grams per pound of body weight as being at the high end for "body building" and that anything above that really has no chance of being synthesized. Of course what I've read could be wrong.

**zaggahamma** · 10-13-2011, 08:35 PM

a lot of good advice from all...

i like subnets the best...

youve already made progress and before you started dieting....yes your proposed diet would be torn apart as a body builder and i agree 1500 calories is too little all for everyday...slowly progress with your diet and just keep moving forward...at 20% or 24% whatever you dont need to have a spot on diet to lose weight/fat...sounds like you arent going to be too strict about it looking at your proposed diet ....that will give you something to work on gradually...sub in some healthier foods/snacks in place of the chips, etc. occasionally...pretty soon you will crave the health as much or moreso..

congrats on what youve done so far and i think you will continue

**bass** · 10-13-2011, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Fred40

I don't have any issues with most of what you said.....but 200 grams a day is more than 1 gram per pound of body weight. Isn't that just a bit excessive?
That's is a lot of protein in a day. All of my research points at .7 - .8 grams per pound of body weight as being at the high end for "body building" and that anything above that really has no chance of being synthesized. Of course what I've read could be wrong.

Fred, watch all Milos vids, you will thank me for posting the link. you will learn how to diet properly once you understand how the human body works. i watched these vids about 6 or 7 times and will watch them again as required.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...rn-how-to-Diet