Dr. Crisler Interview on SQ Testosterone Injections

[kelkel]

Boy they'd have to pay handsomely to find guinie pigs for that one!

GD - I'm aware of the LEF study and several others like it.

This exactly shows the difficulty of taking epidemiological studies and using them to prove a point without factoring in all the variables.

The problem with correlating E2 to morbidity is that is also correlates with Metabolic Syndrome (high body fat, diabetes, etc.).

There is a strong correlation between E2 and BMI and therefore morbidity/mortality in a random aging population.

The study I want to see is one where men with normal BMI, and supplemental testosterone show any risks whatsoever from high E2 levels.

I'm saying that guys like us who watch their weight, eat healthy, exercise and take test don't have the epidemiological risk that the general aging population does with elevated E2.

[bass]

Boy they'd have to pay handsomely to find guinie pigs for that one!

LOL! i can just picture it, TRTers walking with hanging tits! it just ain't pretty! no thanks!

[JohnnyVegas]

have you seen mine? at 60mgs twice a weeks my total was 539 and my free T was above normal.

I remember that. But now you think your E2 is too low, right?

I mostly meant long-term results. I am very interested to see how is goes for everyone after they/you sort out the issues and have blood work done a few times.

[bass]

yes i believe my e2 is too low.

[APIs]

LOL! i can just picture it, TRTers walking with hanging tits! it just ain't pretty! no thanks!

LOL, this reminds me of a friend at the gym that I've mentioned here before. He's 35, newly married, big & fat, wife was bugging him to bone her constantly in order to have kids, but cried to me that he couldn’t get her pregnant & he had no interest in sex. I begged him to go & get some blood tests done because he likely had Low Test & High Estrogen among other things. So he finally did it & Bingo! His total test came back at something like 200 & E2 @ 100 or some ridiculous number. Last I heard he was seeing a fertility Dr. & Urologist & one of them said he was a candidate for TRT. Fast forward 6 months to last week I see him at the gym. He says: "Hey good news, the fertility treatments worked and my wife is pregnant with Twin Girls!" I said; "That's great, but what about your Weight, Low T & High E2?" He says; "Oh the doctors said that I'm fine and have nothing to worry about so I don't need that TRT bullshit!" Now bear in mind this guy is now 25 pounds heavier clocking in @ a Minimum 325 lbs with a pair of Moobs to match. He is morbidly obese for his frame to say the least. I politely said; "That's great buddy, you keep telling yourself that." "I'm sure you'll be fine, good luck!"

I will never again offer to help someone personally unless they are genuine about the issue. IDK, I guess some people are not capable of handling TRT or any avenue that requires work to re-build their life...

[JD250]

^^^^ true APIs, I have watched a friend struggle the last year and I have mildly suggested a few times to go to the doc and get checked out , I could see what was wrong, anyways he comes back and says that the doc said he had low T so I asked to see his results and then spilled the beans about myself being on TRT.....so far I've been able to help him out a bunch.......because in his mind it was his idea to go seek help not a friend trying to convince him. Now my brother is another story, he gets a 100mg shot once a month and refuses to listen to me, I told him when he was at rock bottom I would be waiting with the info he needed.


Evdysone , I understand what your saying about e2 but you ARE throwing out hard evidence just because the subjects arent your age and exact fitness level, that seems way less accurate to me than allowing a little flex room for fitness level or BF%.........high e2 is high e2 and the results are deadly, I can appreciate your thought process but I believe your off base........if you have very high e2 you will end up as one of those overweight high BF% guys with numerous health issues, we've seen people on this board with high e2 that suffered no apparent sides they seem to be the exception and we've seen people here who quit working out and having sex and generally felt like shit because e2 was high and all that exogenous test was a waste........same boat as before they started TRT and got into shape. The question is where do we draw the line in the sand? at what level? LE seems to have set a standard at 30 for feeling well.......Im gonna stick with it and preach it to others until someone can prove that all the studies to date are indeed wrong.

Thanks for the graphs, they are very similar to some that I have used for reference in the past........the thing that really interests me is injecting smaller amounts.... even if eod is only a slight advantage over e3d I am going to try it and see if I can't reach a place where AIs could be eliminated or severely reduced, that cant be a bad thing.

[GFA]

Bumping this thead.

Who is doing SQ for Test shots and have blood work? I considered it, just finished my 3rd IM into the quad (painless).

IM doesnt bother me but if e2 is better managed from SQ and people have the same benefits from the T SQ, might be something to consider.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I was only doing 80 mg / week total when doing twice a week subq injections. So I was injecting 40 mg each shot, subq. I was doing 0.5 mg of AI a week, total, while on that protocol.

Now I am doing 90 mg / week total broken up into 3 shots a week, which is 30 mg each shot, subq. So I have increased my T injections, overall. The good thing is I have eliminated the AI totally! Even though I am taking more T per week, I have a lower spike so I now don't need the AI at all. Overall, I felt sooooooo much better. I can't stress how much better I feel on the three times a week protocal. Even when I was only doing 80 mg/week total (broken into 3 shots), I felt so much better than when doing twice a week shots. My only complaint now is that my libido has gone up. A 53 y/o man just shouldn't be horny all the time. Oh well, at least my wife benefits from it. That makes her happy.

[GFA]

Interesting. What does your blood work look like? Are you injecting into the fat in your stomach area?

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I inject into the thigh subq. Just had blood done a week ago. This was the first blood draw since switching two months ago to 3x/week. I won't see the blood results for another two weeks.

At this point I don't really care too much what the blood results are. I feel fantastic, and unless the blood comes back way too high or something, I don't really care what it says.

[GFA]

Can you post your bw when you get your results? Curious if subq is just as effective for raising your t and keeping e in check.

[bass]

I was only doing 80 mg / week total when doing twice a week subq injections. So I was injecting 40 mg each shot, subq. I was doing 0.5 mg of AI a week, total, while on that protocol.

Now I am doing 90 mg / week total broken up into 3 shots a week, which is 30 mg each shot, subq. So I have increased my T injections, overall. The good thing is I have eliminated the AI totally! Even though I am taking more T per week, I have a lower spike so I now don't need the AI at all. Overall, I felt sooooooo much better. I can't stress how much better I feel on the three times a week protocal. Even when I was only doing 80 mg/week total (broken into 3 shots), I felt so much better than when doing twice a week shots. My only complaint now is that my libido has gone up. A 53 y/o man just shouldn't be horny all the time. Oh well, at least my wife benefits from it. That makes her happy.

same here GNBM! i am injecting SQ eod test/hCG 35mgs/250iu no AI and never felt better! will be doing blood work with 2 weeks to see how this protocol is working on my levels, so we'll see.

[GFA]

What type needles are you using? 25g or smaller?

I tried loading test into a 31g .5cc needle before and it took like 10 minutes. This was my first injection, into the delt but I pushed it really hard into my shoulder so probably IM. I didnt have larger needles at the time.

Now I use 25g 1" into quad, IM.

[FONZY007]

I just did my bw and will be posting up on Monday.. As I've been doing sq injections 60mgs twice per week with no AI... I did notice when I dropped the AI I put on water weight and bloat but will wait till I get bw back

[bass]

I just did my bw and will be posting up on Monday.. As I've been doing sq injections 60mgs twice per week with no AI... I did notice when I dropped the AI I put on water weight and bloat but will wait till I get bw back

i look forward to seeing it.

[FONZY007]

Ok did my injection on 2/28 at 60 mgs and did bw on 3/2 which I would do my other 60mgs later that day..

Im doing SQ injections also..

Didn't have free done, didn't notice till to late

Test total was 275 ng/dl. Range 132-813 ng/ml ( age adjusted)

Estradiol was 36.7 pg/ml. Range <20-56

I been off adex for three weeks I have noticed some bloat but the numbers show I'm right in the middle..also not taking any HCG

Also doc stated to me he wanted me at 500-600 ng/ml. So 275 ng/dl is my low end so should I up it to maybe 80 mgs twice per week but I'm afraid that my E2 numbers will bump above also!! I still feel a little run down but not much was thinking of doing 50mgs, three times a week..

[GFA]

Did you inject IM in the past? If so how does SQ numbers compare? Numbers seem really low for 120mg a week.

Ok did my injection on 2/28 at 60 mgs and did bw on 3/2 which I would do my other 60mgs later that day..

Im doing SQ injections also..

Didn't have free done, didn't notice till to late

Test total was 275 ng/dl. Range 132-813 ng/ml ( age adjusted)

Estradiol was 36.7 pg/ml. Range <20-56

I been off adex for three weeks I have noticed some bloat but the numbers show I'm right in the middle..also not taking any HCG

Also doc stated to me he wanted me at 500-600 ng/ml. So 275 ng/dl is my low end so should I up it to maybe 80 mgs twice per week but I'm afraid that my E2 numbers will bump above also!! I still feel a little run down but not much was thinking of doing 50mgs, three times a week..

[bass]

whats more important is how do you feel. i bet your free is in good range and thats more important than total. can you do another test to check for free T? your e2 is not high enough to cause water retention, but i could be wrong! what is your water intake, are you sweating and urinating normally?

[FONZY007]

whats more important is how do you feel. i bet your free is in good range and thats more important than total. can you do another test to check for free T? your e2 is not high enough to cause water retention, but i could be wrong! what is your water intake, are you sweating and urinating normally?

I still feel a little tired, but better im assuming after injection im in 400-500ng/dl range.. I can see normally i see the doctor and he just gives me the paperwork and I go do it 2-3 months down the road..

Question? If I add HCG will it increase these numbers?

Water intake a gallon or a little less, and sweating well I'm on accutane so almost no sweating at all lol

[FONZY007]

Did you inject IM in the past? If so how does SQ numbers compare? Numbers seem really low for 120mg a week.

Yes I did, I was around 300ng/ml using 100mg a week

Plus with the sq, I did the bw the same day as my next injection. Did i do that right?

[FONZY007]

If I would switch to 3 injections per week how would I go about the protocol? Just inject every 72 hrs?

[GFA]

HCG will increase your numbers if your body can produce its own test. Your body produces around 5-10mg a day.

Usually your BW will spike around 2 days after your injection (IM). No idea how long till peak SQ.

No idea on SQ frequency as Im just started doing IM myself, 1x a week 100mg.

[FONZY007]

HCG will increase your numbers if your body can produce its own test. Your body produces around 5-10mg a day.

Usually your BW will spike around 2 days after your injection (IM). No idea how long till peak SQ.

No idea on SQ frequency as Im just started doing IM myself, 1x a week 100mg.

My body does product just low, I would be like 120ng/dl on its own

[GFA]

If you are secondary (low LH/FSH causing your test to be low) then adding HCG will increase your test totals.

If you are primary (high LH/FSH levels and still low test) then adding HCG will have no effect on your test totals.

[bass]

If I would switch to 3 injections per week how would I go about the protocol? Just inject every 72 hrs?

to make it easy i am on ewd test/hcg 35mgs/250iu, no AI

[FONZY007]

to make it easy i am on ewd test/hcg 35mgs/250iu, no AI

How you feel?

[jamotech]

If I would switch to 3 injections per week how would I go about the protocol? Just inject every 72 hrs?

Every 56 hours to be exact,... mon. morning, wed. afternoon, fri. night is easier to remember.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I do Tues/Thurs evening, Sun early afternoon. It doesn't have to be exact.

[FONZY007]

I do Tues/Thurs evening, Sun early afternoon. It doesn't have to be exact.

How much you do and how your bw look? Do you use SQ?

[bass]

How you feel?

just fine except i think my dose needs to be increased, recovery is very slow after workout, so maybe i can go about 40 mgs eod!

[FONZY007]

just fine except i think my dose needs to be increased, recovery is very slow after workout, so maybe i can go about 40 mgs eod!

I been thinking a lot, I have 5000 ius of hcg .. Hmm instead of increasing my dose if test maybe add 500ius twice per week if hcg, that should be enough to raise my test values right? Also would i do it the same day I inject my test..

Than on a second note Johnny V is taking 200mgs a week, one shot and no AI or HCG and is similar in age as I...

Don't know what to do, but I think it does need to get raised slightly...

[bass]

this is what we all went and still going through, finding the sweet spot! unfortunately when you try new protocol you have to do it for at least 6 weeks to noticed any difference. i do test one day and hCG the next day and so on.

[flatscat]

I inject into the thigh subq. Just had blood done a week ago. This was the first blood draw since switching two months ago to 3x/week. I won't see the blood results for another two weeks.

At this point I don't really care too much what the blood results are. I feel fantastic, and unless the blood comes back way too high or something, I don't really care what it says.

Sorry, but I have to ask.... you have that much bf around your thighs?

[FONZY007]

Fvckin flatscat lol

[doc w]

Anyone have any thoughts about a short acting test with an insulin pump. That way you could change the sq needle every four days and dose your test around workouts and simulate the natural circadian rhythm.

[flatscat]

Now there's a thought.

[ecdysone]

Anyone have any thoughts about a short acting test with an insulin pump. That way you could change the sq needle every four days and dose your test around workouts and simulate the natural circadian rhythm.

We talked about this before....I like the idea!

You would actually use test itself (no ester) in a such a device. Think about it: you could 'crank up the volume' just before the "big date" and get whatever effect desired

But more practically I think where the field will go is towards a time-released, oral test-undec that has been engineered to bypass the first-past metabolism. You take it daily in the morning, get a nice spike just like natural.

[doc w]

We talked about this before....I like the idea!

You would actually use test itself (no ester) in a such a device. Think about it: you could 'crank up the volume' just before the "big date" and get whatever effect desired

But more practically I think where the field will go is towards a time-released, oral test-undec that has been engineered to bypass the first-past metabolism. You take it daily in the morning, get a nice spike just like natural.

I've read your previous posts and you have a firm grasp of pharmacokinetics. Things will definitely progress to what's easier for the masses. I think it would be very difficult to design a study that demonstrates the difference between two fairly effective treatments(. 6 woody's vs 7 for the week). So for the masses it's will all come down to convenience.

[PetrX]

Anyone have any thoughts about a short acting test with an insulin pump. That way you could change the sq needle every four days and dose your test around workouts and simulate the natural circadian rhythm.

I'm a type 1 diabetic and I was advised against using an insulin pump ..I forget why lol but it made a lot of sense when the dr told me haha but I actually thought about this and my dr and I talked about it..I'm seeing him today and we will consult with the endo and see if it would be a good idea and safe as well..the only problem I see though is an insulin pump runs insulin which is very thin, testosterone how ever has more viscosity to it and therefore would probably require alterations and larger needles ect..

[PetrX]

We talked about this before....I like the idea!

You would actually use test itself (no ester) in a such a device. Think about it: you could 'crank up the volume' just before the "big date" and get whatever effect desired

But more practically I think where the field will go is towards a time-released, oral test-undec that has been engineered to bypass the first-past metabolism. You take it daily in the morning, get a nice spike just like natural.

kind of like that batman character bane who has a machine in the back of his neck that releases testosterone and gets super huge haha hmm