TRT - Self Administered?

[mike954]

What's a blast ?

[bass]

havent heard many if any big results (from blasts) from those going from trt to just higher doses of test

i agree, i get better results from high protein intake and heavy lifting than higher test doses.

[bass]

What's a blast ?

cycle while on trt.

[anon77]

i agree, i get better results from high protein intake and heavy lifting than higher test doses.

I've been doing that for years with a few breaks from getting discouraged. I've gained more the past 2 months on trt than I have the past 2 years without it. I've got friends wanting on it now after seeing my gains. If 80mg ew does this I'd like to see what a high dose could do. Maybe nothing, but I'm curious. If it does nothing why is test only recommended as a first cycle by everyone? Or are we talking ab different doses?

[gbrice75]

No. I've been on TRT all summer. The only reason I never cycled was due to fear of needles. Now that I've overcome that I'd like to do a cycle.

Gotcha, my bad.

havent heard many if any big results (from blasts) from those going from trt to just higher doses of test

Really? Interesting... you're saying that gains haven't been much greater on cycle as opposed to standard TRT?

I've been doing that for years with a few breaks from getting discouraged. I've gained more the past 2 months on trt than I have the past 2 years without it. I've got friends wanting on it now after seeing my gains. If 80mg ew does this I'd like to see what a high dose could do. Maybe nothing, but I'm curious.

Hmm.. 80mg/week is about half of what I've seen others on (understood this could be a starting dosage). And you say you've seen better gains in 2 months than in 2 years natural!?! This is compelling!

If it does nothing why is test only recommended as a first cycle by everyone?

For a couple of reasons.

1- people react differently to AAS, particuarly with regards to sides. If you were to run test + another AAS and had sides, how would you know which compound was causing them?

2- test should be the base of every cycle. Running any AAS compound without test is just plain stupid. With this in mind, it only makes sense to run test only as a first cycle.

Hope this helps.

[kelkel]

I've been doing that for years with a few breaks from getting discouraged. I've gained more the past 2 months on trt than I have the past 2 years without it. I've got friends wanting on it now after seeing my gains. If 80mg ew does this I'd like to see what a high dose could do. Maybe nothing, but I'm curious. If it does nothing why is test only recommended as a first cycle by everyone? Or are we talking ab different doses?

Keep in mind that if your dosage of T is bumped up a bit that is still only part of the equation. If you want to seriously gain muscle you must still train and eat properly. Assuming you're training properly and you bump up your T and don't make gains, then you need to examine your diet, IMHO. Most people seriously just don't eat enough to make the gains they so desperately want.

[gbrice75]

^^ so true. I've seen guys on full blown cycles... 750mg test/week, etc - and they look like shit.

[gbrice75]

***UPDATE***

So, I called the doc's office today to see if my labs came back - they did!! I only got to speak to somebody at the front desk, so I don't have details - but she said the doc want's to schedule a follow up, T is definitely low and he wants to prescribe me 'something' (TRT, duh). I made my appt. for Tuesday morning and will update with results (numbers etc) ASAP.

So far, so good. I am really looking forward to feeling better and being a better ME. I expect to be discussing dosage as well as ancillaries which as mentioned - I will insist on running HCG right out of the gate. I'll also be bringing up HMG to hear his thoughts on that. Jury is still out on Adex - I know he'd prefer to monitor estrogen levels and deal with them if they occur. Personally, i'm all about precautions and would like to avoid them all together if possible. I have tits enough as it is... certainly don't need gyno to start.

[milky01623]

Good luck dude & congrats

[mike954]

What's the Benefit of running hcg on trt ? Cuz I'm just got put on trt

[xcraider37]

What's the Benefit of running hcg on trt ? Cuz I'm just got put on trt

Hcg keeps your testicles producing. Without it they will shutdown and you may notice them getting smaller after a while. I have not noticed that effect yet and I have been doing trt for over a year now.

[mike954]

Hcg keeps your testicles producing. Without it they will shutdown and you may notice them getting smaller after a while. I have not noticed that effect yet and I have been doing trt for over a year now.

Ok thx

[bass]

What's the Benefit of running hcg on trt ? Cuz I'm just got put on trt

hcg will keep your testis functioning normally, without it they will shrink and stop to function. read the sticky posted by GDevine regarding hCG for further details.

oops! just saw Mike's post.

[zaggahamma]

no gbrice

not what i'm saying

lets dont even use the word cycle anymore or at least in this question...

what i'm saying is if you ARE ON trt and have been for a good while (year or more) THEN raising test ALONE(BLAST) i have found and heard that results are not worth mentioning IF ANY...

test only cycles imo are for those running first cycles(now we can say cycle again, not those that have been running test week in and week out

my .02 and others i've heard but you see bass also x2'd me

[anon77]

double post. Curse you spammers had to edit sorry

[anon77]

Gotcha, my bad.

Really? Interesting... you're saying that gains haven't been much greater on cycle as opposed to standard TRT?
Hmm.. 80mg/week is about half of what I've seen others on (understood this could be a starting dosage). And you say you've seen better gains in 2 months than in 2 years natural!?! This is compelling!

For a couple of reasons.

1- people react differently to AAS, particuarly with regards to sides. If you were to run test + another AAS and had sides, how would you know which compound was causing them?

2- test should be the base of every cycle. Running any AAS compound without test is just plain stupid. With this in mind, it only makes sense to run test only as a first cycle.

Hope this helps.

Thanks. Yes the past 2 months on trt all of my friends are telling me how big I'm getting. I've put on 6 lbs without really using a bulking diet. My waist is smaller by ½". It really seems to have been the missing link for me.

Just a hypothesis, but is it possible people don't see gains on test only blasts BC their natty test is too low and isn't boosted to levels that a normal person would see on 500mg ew? I am not saying I'm going to boast with 1ml a week, just a thought lol.

I've only cycled an oral a few times with good results. Been on trt over 2 months. They have me 'dialed in', so they think, at a test level of 800. Workouts are intense and heavy.

Diet is good. Lots of fruits and lean meat. No cals from liquids outside of protein shakes. Not too much processed food or sugar.

[gbrice75]

no gbrice

not what i'm saying

lets dont even use the word cycle anymore or at least in this question...

what i'm saying is if you ARE ON trt and have been for a good while (year or more) THEN raising test ALONE(BLAST) i have found and heard that results are not worth mentioning IF ANY...

test only cycles imo are for those running first cycles(now we can say cycle again, not those that have been running test week in and week out

my .02 and others i've heard but you see bass also x2'd me

Thx for the clarification.

Re: test only cycles - I will say that I know a Vet on this board (I won't name him as it's his business) who has run dozens of cycles and every compound under the sun, and now runs high dose test only cycles and claims to have better results than when he was running test lower but with other compounds. He's a fvcking beast too, so it's not just talk. I think maybe it boils down to the individual - some will just respond better to test than others. Same reason why TRT doesn't even seem to work for some people.

Thanks. Yes the past 2 months on trt all of my friends are telling me how big I'm getting. I've put on 6 lbs without really using a bulking diet. My waist is smaller by ½". It really seems to have been the missing link for me.

Just a hypothesis, but is it possible people don't see gains on test only blasts BC their natty test is too low and isn't boosted to levels that a normal person would see on 500mg ew? I am not saying I'm going to boast with 1ml a week, just a thought lol.

I've only cycled an oral a few times with good results. Been on trt over 2 months. They have me 'dialed in', so they think, at a test level of 800. Workouts are intense and heavy.

Diet is good. Lots of fruits and lean meat. No cals from liquids outside of protein shakes. Not too much processed food or sugar.

Cheers bro, sounds like you're enjoying yourself!

[zaggahamma]

[QUOTE=gbrice75;6111417]Thx for the clarification.

Re: test only cycles - I will say that I know a Vet on this board (I won't name him as it's his business) who has run dozens of cycles and every compound under the sun, and now runs high dose test only cycles and claims to have better results than when he was running test lower but with other compounds. He's a fvcking beast too, so it's not just talk. I think maybe it boils down to the individual - some will just respond better to test than others. Same reason why TRT doesn't even seem to work for some people.

Yup its always individual

but back to your friend...still, if he hasnt been on trt and has only cycled off and on, then to be precise, it doesnt relate to what i stated...hope i didnt take u from clarification to confusion ...but i see a difference in what i said and what you stated your friend experienced

[mike954]

hcg will keep your testis functioning normally, without it they will shrink and stop to function. read the sticky posted by GDevine regarding hCG for further details.

oops! just saw Mike's post.

I'm on trt from my DR not endo I'm going back in 6 weeks for more blood work should I bring this up to him ??

[MRNJ1992]

from personal exp my doc did the first shot then it was all me....

[gbrice75]

[QUOTE=jpkman;6111556]

Thx for the clarification.

Re: test only cycles - I will say that I know a Vet on this board (I won't name him as it's his business) who has run dozens of cycles and every compound under the sun, and now runs high dose test only cycles and claims to have better results than when he was running test lower but with other compounds. He's a fvcking beast too, so it's not just talk. I think maybe it boils down to the individual - some will just respond better to test than others. Same reason why TRT doesn't even seem to work for some people.

Yup its always individual

but back to your friend...still, if he hasnt been on trt and has only cycled off and on, then to be precise, it doesnt relate to what i stated...hope i didnt take u from clarification to confusion ...but i see a difference in what i said and what you stated your friend experienced

Yea... i'm kinda confused now, lmao!

I'm on trt from my DR not endo I'm going back in 6 weeks for more blood work should I bring this up to him ??

Bring what up?

from personal exp my doc did the first shot then it was all me....

Damn... NJ been representin' lately!! Where are you at in Jersey?

[gbrice75]

Update:

Well, I had my appt with the doc today - i'm a step or 2 closer. Blood test results showed test was low:

Testosterone , Serum - 346 ng/dL (348-1197)
Free Testosterone (Direct) - 5.4 (8.7 - 25.1)

There you have it - this time around, both free and total were low. I'm not surprised. I feel like shit. No energy, low libido, depressed, gaining bodyfat, can't seem to add lean muscle, etc etc.

The doc prescribed me 200mg/week test cyp (10mL) + 250 iu HCG 2x weekly. The only snag at the moment is both injections require authorization from my insurance company. I found this out at the pharmacy when trying to get these filled. So my doc has to call my carrier and explain why I need it. Right now, my fate lies in the hands of an insurance company - fvcking scary. We all know what crooks they can be, denying people coverage for this or that. Fingers are crossed, but I can't count my chickens before they hatch. Until I have the meds in my hand, I can't consider this a done deal.

On another note, I mentioned HMG and he had no idea what i'm talking about. In all fairness, he's not an endo and I suppose I should start looking for one just to be on the safe side. I handed him a study (thanks OscarJones) and he at least took it and asked if he could make a copy, he was interested.

I have to call the pharmacy tomorrow to see if it was approved by insurance or not... *gulp* Wish me luck!

[Dpyle]

Good luck gb. Glad to see you have a script for the hcg . I still can't get my office to write a script for it. They will only sell it through the office and I don't like the idea of getting it already reconstituted.

[gbrice75]

Thx man. I actually wouldn't mind having somebody do the work for me. It's a pain in the ass IMO.

[bass]

i know how you feel, it is scary when your insurance tells your doc what to do. worse case scenario just go to Costco and get your meds from there, 10ml test cyp is about $57. he put you on a high dose, you can try it and see how you feel/do but for the long run i think you won't like the negative sides like high RBC, High cholesterol, high BP, high libido....okay libido may not be a bad thing, but trust me, more is not better, you just need to find your sweet spot! good luck GB!

[Dpyle]

Thx man. I actually wouldn't mind having somebody do the work for me. It's a pain in the ass IMO.

It would be ok if they re constituted it for me in office but they get it from a compounding pharmacy. No date of when it was reconstituted just an expiration date. The only time I used it I was using 300 iu twice a week with no noticeable change to my little guys so I never bothered to drop the cash for a second bottle.

[gbrice75]

i know how you feel, it is scary when your insurance tells your doc what to do. worse case scenario just go to Costco and get your meds from there, 10ml test cyp is about $57.

So you're saying if they deny me, just go to Costco sans insurance and pay for it directly out of pocket? I guess I could do that... seeing as it's that cheap and all... thx bro, glad you brought that up. Just called Walgreens (where my scripts are currently pending) and the test is $109.99, the HCG is $174.99... kinda steep. We'll see! I'll check Costco like you said, and Walmart as well.

he put you on a high dose, you can try it and see how you feel/do but for the long run i think you won't like the negative sides like high RBC, High cholesterol, high BP, high libido....okay libido may not be a bad thing, but trust me, more is not better, you just need to find your sweet spot! good luck GB!

Well, luckily I have excellent cholesterol to begin with... so at least i'm in a good position. The high libido is one of those things i'm looking forward to. 200mg did see high to start, I was expecting maybe 100-130, but i'm not complaining. I'm sure we'll lower the dosage if need be. Thx bro!!!

It would be ok if they re constituted it for me in office but they get it from a compounding pharmacy. No date of when it was reconstituted just an expiration date. The only time I used it I was using 300 iu twice a week with no noticeable change to my little guys so I never bothered to drop the cash for a second bottle.

This begs the question - were your little guys in bad shape already? What changes were you expecting? i.e. did you experience atrophy initially and the HCG did nothing to correct that? Did you have a sperm count analysis before/after?

[Dpyle]

This begs the question - were your little guys in bad shape already? What changes were you expecting? i.e. did you experience atrophy initially and the HCG did nothing to correct that? Did you have a sperm count analysis before/after?

No sperm count was done. I was judging based on whether it helped with the atrophy. And it didn't really help with that which led me to believe it had been reconstituted long enough for degradation to start. It also had b12 mixed with it and I'm not sure if that would harm the hormone or not.

And wow my walgreens charges about 20 bucks less for a 10ml vial

[steroid.com 1]

"The doc prescribed me 200mg/week test cyp (10mL) + 250 iu HCG 2x weekly."

You could pump up the hCG to 250iu 3x weekly like Monday, Wednesday and Friday on 200mg of week Cyp.

Can you post the rest of your BW especially like to see LH, FSH, SHBG, Albumin, TSH and E2 if you have them.

[gbrice75]

No sperm count was done. I was judging based on whether it helped with the atrophy. And it didn't really help with that which led me to believe it had been reconstituted long enough for degradation to start. It also had b12 mixed with it and I'm not sure if that would harm the hormone or not.

And wow my walgreens charges about 20 bucks less for a 10ml vial

Just checked the Costco by me - $71.55 for the test, not sure about the HCG because they don't have it there in stock.

Gonna check Walmart, CVS, and Rite Aid next.

[gbrice75]

"The doc prescribed me 200mg/week test cyp (10mL) + 250 iu HCG 2x weekly."

You could pump up the hCG to 250iu 3x weekly like Monday, Wednesday and Friday on 200mg of week Cyp.

I could... but doubt it's necesssary at this point. We'll have to see how it goes first.

Can you post the rest of your BW especially like to see LH, FSH, SHBG, Albumin, TSH and E2 if you have them.

I actually had limited tests run because I had full (extended) BW done in December. All that was tested for this time was test, LH, and SHBG. Values for the latter 2 as follows:

LH: 4.0 mIU/mL (1.7 - 8.6)

SHBG, Serum 48.6 nmol/L (16.5 - 55.9) On the high side, but not out of normal range.

[Dpyle]

I need to shop around a bit myself. For some reason the doc writes the script for 200mg per week with three refills in a 4 month span but walgreens will only let me refill every 10 weeks which doesn't account for loss in the pin so I'm left with just over 100mg on the 10th week. Thankfully I filled my first script the week the doc gave me my injection in office so I can actually refill the week before I need it. Plus I believe I could get a better price somewhere else.

Every refill walgreens tries to say they can't get the 10ml vials anymore and the only other option they have is 1ml vials that cost 120 bucks for 4. Then they somehow manage to find their "last" 10ml vial when I refuse to pay more for less.

[steroid.com 1]

LH: 4.0 mIU/mL (1.7 - 8.6)
This is fine.

SHBG, Serum 48.6 nmol/L (16.5 - 55.9) On the high side, but not out of normal range.
This is best mid to mid/low.

Did you have a full set of Thyroid panels run in December?

Maybe I missed it as this thread is getting long; were you diagnosed Primary or Secondary Hypogonadal?

[Vettester]

Gbrice, I agree with GD about splitting up the HCG protocol to 3x's/wk.

IMO, you wouldn't need all that much test; possibly 100mg -to- 120mg/wk. Part of the situation you're feeling is also a result of the free test being low (1.56% to be exact). Get this up in the 2.5% range and you will get a nice boost on that alone. Look at it this way ...

Option 1) Leave your free test where it is at: 800 total serum (which people would think is great) would give you a free test score of: 12.4
Option 2) Get your free test to a healthy 2.5% (or thereabouts), and a 600 total serum would give you a free test score of 15.0 YES, 200 points lower on a total serum labs means more testosterone I know, it doesn't sound right, but it's proof that more focus needs to be put on the free & bio available side of things.

So in essence, you can actually get more for less. I'm banking if you add a decent amount of Vitamin D, and maybe even a little stinging nettle root, I'll bet your SHBG comes down into the 20's for you. Less compound will be needed to achieve wellness, and you can hold on to that extra test for a blast-a-thon down the road.

I will also bank that you will make out OK with the insurance approval. The games we have to play to fill good again, geesh!

I was also going to ask you, are you looking at any particular additions to compliment your protocol? Such as, B-12, Vitamin D (as noted above), Preg/DHEA? Also, I may have missed some earlier posts, but are you looking to keep your options open for having children after you start? I saw where there was mention of HMG, so I'm figuring that is something you are looking to do?

[bass]

Just checked the Costco by me - $71.55 for the test, not sure about the HCG because they don't have it there in stock.

Gonna check Walmart, CVS, and Rite Aid next.

if you are a member you will get additional discount. my insurance only allows me to get 4 mgs a month, which means i have to make 3 trips to the pharmacy and pay 20 dollars copay every time which comes up to 60 dollars for 10 ml, so i figured its cheeper to pay out of pocket!

[gbrice75]

I need to shop around a bit myself. For some reason the doc writes the script for 200mg per week with three refills in a 4 month span but walgreens will only let me refill every 10 weeks which doesn't account for loss in the pin so I'm left with just over 100mg on the 10th week. Thankfully I filled my first script the week the doc gave me my injection in office so I can actually refill the week before I need it. Plus I believe I could get a better price somewhere else.

Every refill walgreens tries to say they can't get the 10ml vials anymore and the only other option they have is 1ml vials that cost 120 bucks for 4. Then they somehow manage to find their "last" 10ml vial when I refuse to pay more for less.

Fvckers. I shopped around quite a bit, and surprisingly, Walgreen's was THE most expensive between Walmart, Rite Aid, Costco, and CVS.

LH: 4.0 mIU/mL (1.7 - 8.6)
This is fine.

SHBG, Serum 48.6 nmol/L (16.5 - 55.9) On the high side, but not out of normal range.
This is best mid to mid/low.

Did you have a full set of Thyroid panels run in December?

To be honest, I can't remember. I thought I posted results at the beginning of this thread, but I could be thinking of another thread. I can post them if you'd like.

Maybe I missed it as this thread is getting long; were you diagnosed Primary or Secondary Hypogonadal?

He didn't 'diagnose' me as either. i.e. he never came out and said "ok, you have secondary hypogonadism." He prescribed me TRT based on a low test score, but from what I can tell, that's about it. Again, he isn't an endo. I will be shopping for one though and will make the switch as soon as I find one I like.

Gbrice, I agree with GD about splitting up the HCG protocol to 3x's/wk.

IMO, you wouldn't need all that much test; possibly 100mg -to- 120mg/wk. Part of the situation you're feeling is also a result of the free test being low (1.56% to be exact). Get this up in the 2.5% range and you will get a nice boost on that alone. Look at it this way ...

*interest piqued*

Option 1) Leave your free test where it is at: 800 total serum (which people would think is great) would give you a free test score of: 12.4
Option 2) Get your free test to a healthy 2.5% (or thereabouts), and a 600 total serum would give you a free test score of 15.0 YES, 200 points lower on a total serum labs means more testosterone I know, it doesn't sound right, but it's proof that more focus needs to be put on the free & bio available side of things.

I am loosely following you here. I understand the concept of having more free test; I don't 100% follow the math, but I guess I don't necessarily need to know that in depth - or do I? The bigger question is - how do I go about doing this?

So in essence, you can actually get more for less. I'm banking if you add a decent amount of Vitamin D, and maybe even a little stinging nettle root, I'll bet your SHBG comes down into the 20's for you. Less compound will be needed to achieve wellness, and you can hold on to that extra test for a blast-a-thon down the road.

Now this is appealing.

I will also bank that you will make out OK with the insurance approval. The games we have to play to fill good again, geesh!

Sadly, it's a no go. Fvckers denied coverage. They want my total test score to be under 300, i'm at 346. Cocksvckers. But thanks to Bass, Costco has 10mL for $67 (members discount) so i'm paying out of pocket.

I was also going to ask you, are you looking at any particular additions to compliment your protocol? Such as, B-12, Vitamin D (as noted above), Preg/DHEA? Also, I may have missed some earlier posts, but are you looking to keep your options open for having children after you start? I saw where there was mention of HMG, so I'm figuring that is something you are looking to do?

I haven't really given it much thought to be honest. I am certainly not against adding vitamins, although I need to get educated on the benefits, specifically with regards to TRT. DHEA - I was supp'ing it for a while last year, but ran out and didn't buy it again. I guess I should before it's banned.

I don't know much at all about Preg - it's a prohormone, right? Or am I thinking of something else? In any event - I am planning to do everything on the up and up with regards to my wife. I have her blessing (and trust, once again) with TRT after a lot of issues over the past year with AAS and related shit... so i'm not about to compromise that again. Point being - if preg is illegal, it's out of the question for me. But I'd still be interested to learn about it for my own thirst for knowledge.

if you are a member you will get additional discount. my insurance only allows me to get 4 mgs a month, which means i have to make 3 trips to the pharmacy and pay 20 dollars copay every time which comes up to 60 dollars for 10 ml, so i figured its cheeper to pay out of pocket!

I fvcking hate insurance companies. If you read a few responses above, you'll know I was denied outright. They said my test isn't low enough to be covered. So, i'm paying out of pocket. $67 at my Costco (i'm a member) - can't thank you enough for the recommendation because the other pharmacies (CVS, etc) were all over $100.

[warchild]

brice- if you retest your levels and they come back under 300 will insurance pay for it then? cus you could always do your trt for a bit and then go cold turkey for a few weeks and come back very low. I did this and came back at 87 total so maybe its worth a shot......

[Dpyle]

brice- if you retest your levels and they come back under 300 will insurance pay for it then? cus you could always do your trt for a bit and then go cold turkey for a few weeks and come back very low. I did this and came back at 87 total so maybe its worth a shot......

This is how my insurance covered it gb. I started at a clinic and was with them paying cash for several months. Then the doc that was managing my protocol called me up one week and said she was moving to a new office that would take insurance. Well my last labs were pulled around 10 days after my last injection ( busy work week). Levels came in just over 200 total So the insurance never questioned it when it got submitted.

[gbrice75]

brice- if you retest your levels and they come back under 300 will insurance pay for it then? cus you could always do your trt for a bit and then go cold turkey for a few weeks and come back very low. I did this and came back at 87 total so maybe its worth a shot......

This is how my insurance covered it gb. I started at a clinic and was with them paying cash for several months. Then the doc that was managing my protocol called me up one week and said she was moving to a new office that would take insurance. Well my last labs were pulled around 10 days after my last injection ( busy work week). Levels came in just over 200 total So the insurance never questioned it when it got submitted.

I've been thinking about doing exactly this. I'd take my last shot, wait 2-3 weeks, go in for labs, then start pinning again right away while waiting for results. Should be very low. Supposedly, my insurance company wants to see total test under 300 - so unless they're full of shit and will come up with another excuse, I SHOULD be covered if I can pull this off.

I don't want to do it right away though. I want to stay on TRT for about 6 months before deciding on anything - i.e. do I want to do this for life, or not? If not, no point in bothering with all this.

[warchild]

so did you start the trt today or are you holding off? also is the ins gonna cover labs and doctor visits?