HPGA/HPTA CRASH - RESTART? Is there hope?

[mavsman41]

Hey guys,

First I would like to please ask that you refrain from criticizing my mistakes. I need advice and productive input so that I can make the best educated decisions regarding my health. This will be a long post but I hope I can get some of you to take the time. I would really appreciate your input. I am 24 and dealing with low testosterone and the related symptoms. I've made some mistakes in my ignorance and I just want my health back. Here we go:

I am 24. 6'3. 210 lbs. 13% BF BP 245 x 6/Squat 325 x 8/Shoulder Press 85 x 8 - you would not think I was hypogonadal. I am well developed and wear a beard.

Last summer in July I took a prohormone for 6 weeks (epi "clone"). I used nolvadex only pct for 4 weeks but I now think the tamoxifen was actually fake.

In October (yes I waited this long) I decided to go get checked for mono because I was constantly lethargic and was dead in the gym. I also requested that a blood panel be done for my testosterone levels. Mono was negative, but my testosterone was low (190 ng/ml!) This was terrifying so I made the first apt. I could with the local urologist. I gave my urologist my history of abusing AAS and he concluded that I should probably just wait for my body to work itself out.

I shared that in highschool at the age of 16 my friends and I all tried out a product called spawn and that this was a highly toxic, legal steroid. I also explained that I dabbled again with other products I found at the local GNC and that in college I ran 2 cycles of test enanthate and winstrol for 6 wks each with nolvadex only as a pct. ( I know, this is idiotic! )

I explained that I had felt great these last few years before my most recent prohormone use. He concluded time was my best friend. I did blood work for the next few months:

I do not have the blood work in front of me but i do have my TT written down. I will request my records and update so you can see the result of my full panels. I also remember that I was low in FSH and LH each time, indicating secondary hypogonadism.

Initial Oct blood work: TT 190
Nov blood work: TT 202
late Nov blood work: TT 282
February 12: TT 327

Guys I know these are all really low numbers and this is terrifying. I do not want to be on TRT because this is a lifelong commitment and I do want to have children. I am hoping time and some assistance could get my body back on track. My doctor put me on 25 mg clomid/ED last week and I will be running this until next month when I can finally see the best urologist in Texas. From my research it looks like I am secondary Hypgonadal. I need your advice in how to approach my next doctors visit.

It is a good sign that my levels are increasing on their own, right? I understand we do not have a baseline for pre AAS use, but I always had an amazing sex drive and was lean and muscular so I assume I was healthy (500-800 or so)

Should this clomid help my pituitary pick up the slack and signal the testes? Or should I continue to deal with the crash naturally and let my body do it's own recovery?

When I speak to the new urologist, should I request HCG/tamoxifen to jumpstart my system?

PLEASE ADVISE. THANK YOU.

[austinite]

Clomid is likely all you need at this stage. I would follow the docs advice.

[mavsman41]

Ok thanks Austinite. Should I expect to ride this out for a few months, then taper and see what my baseline looks like a month after clomid?

[BG]

Moved you to trt section you should get more replies

[jimmyinkedup]

I too think your doctor is on the right track. There will be no need or reason to taper off the clomid. You should take it and then wait 6-8weeks after you stop to get blood work that will be an accurate reflection of where your natural, unaffected test levels are.
I do think that while the increases have been small they have been consistent and I would take that as a good sign. There is a good possibility the clomid therapy will do the trick for you. Keep us posted on how this progresses.

[kelkel]

Agree with everyone. Your doc's on the correct path. I'd still be curious about the rest of your BW though, cortisol, prolactin, thyroid issues can all suppress LH levels

[mavsman41]

Well thanks guys. I will have to go in person to retrieve my records and I will post its entirety ASAP.

I appreciate all the input.

[mavsman41]

Thanks BG. First post ever - my mistake.

[mavsman41]

I am not sure why they did not fax me the LH, FSH and some of the estrogen numbers. These places are very frustrating to deal with!

I would appreciate any insight into my progress. I made a slow increase naturally from the shockingly low 182 to 194, from 194 to 202, from 202 to 280, then from 327 to 538 with clomid in my system. The doc believes my levels will continue to rise for the next 3-4 wks. He said my downstairs was good to go and any atrophy I may have experienced is not noticeable but rather the boys look A OK. He also indicated they could increase in size?

I have read that with clomid, my testosterone should skyrocket. I have not experienced that, but there has been progress. Should I feel optimistic? I know my levels will drop significantly upon stopping so I am hoping that in the next month I can reach 3X my initial 324.

Any input is really appreciated guys. As you know testosterone is so important to well being and obviously girls and fitness. I don't think I will ever put another chemical in my body after this shutdown - I just want my health. I hope my system can recover.

Thoughts? While my test came up, my free t barely increased. I know everyone wants to see my LH and FSH so I apologize and will request the full records once again.

PS - almost no sides on the clomid. Probably because I have kept the dosage at the reasonable dose of 25 mg. No estrogen sides (nipple sensitivity, emotional moments, sadness beyond what I already had) and no vision issues or headaches. Joints have hurt a few times but I have been lifting heavy lately and training for a 5K as well. Strength is up. Body fat slightly lower.

I hope this may be help to someone in a similar situation. I'd happily answer any questions. CHEERS.

[mavsman41]

This should have preceded the last post but my computer was freezing.
Update:

Date:4/14/15 *** w/ 3.5 wks clomid at 25mg ED
TT: 538 (175 - 781)
SHBG: 36.6 ( 13.2 - 89.5)
Free Test: 10.7 (6 - 27)
Estriadol: 46 (anything <63 ok)

Date:3/13/2015
TT:329.3
SHBG: 26.6
Free Test: 7.4
Estriadol: 48

Date:11/05/2014
TT: 194.5
SHBG:26.6
Free Test:4.2

[kelkel]

Your focus needs to be on your free test levels, not total test.
Give it time and keep monitoring.

[mavsman41]

I agree Kelkel. I will be patient and give it time. Do you think there is something I could pair with the clomid to raise the Free T?

[kelkel]

Not really as your shbg appears fine. Optimized Vit D levels are always a plus and will help a bit. Just know your levels before supplementing and then monitor them.

[mavsman41]

Thanks again for all your advice Kelkel. I was wondering if you could give me on your opinion on my diet. My concern for fitness and bodybuilding has taken a backseat to my concern for overall well being and health lately. I've been cheating over the last few weeks out of apathy and feeling somewhat helpless because I wasn't able to burn much fat or gain muscle with such low T. Although it is due to the clomid, does the increase in T that I currently have translate to the gym? Or is it so artificial that it's more of just a number?

I was thinking I would begin focusing on my diet again - going more paleo with a high protein/vegetable intake and strategic carb intake for exercise. Is that what you would do? Even my bad days are pretty clean but I think with my situation for any real progress I will have to be strict as hell.

Also, anyone else who may have similar experience with a post cycle crash or experience with clomid feel free to jump in on the thread.

[kelkel]

Clomid caused your body to increase it's natural production of testosterone. That said, even if it were injected T it's the same thing. Endogenous and exogenous Testosterone are exactly the same thing. No difference at all between the two. So, increasing your T can help but it's no panacea. It needs to be in conjunction with proper nutrition and training. Everything works better when hormone levels are optimized so yes, it translates to the gym if you want it to. It won't do it on it's own.

When it comes to diet guidance I'm really not the guy to talk to. I've never counted a calorie in my life and usually have no clue what most of the popular diets are. Hit up the vets in the Nutrition Forum and they will gladly help. Basically free Nutritionists willing to help.

[mavsman41]

Lol not a calorie counter either. Glad to know I can utilize the testosterone to lean out though. I guess because it was coming from a pill I thought it wasn't quite the same. T is t I guess.

I'll repost my next bloodwork in 2 wks which will be at week 6 of clomid. Hoping for another jump in t/ free t.

[vrocketv]

Im going through almost the same thing accept my Free T levels are almost NON-EXISTENT (and no prior AAS use).


I would post a link.. .but apparently this forum doesn't let me do that yet.. If you search for "My Quest Toward TRT - Young Adult Male" or posts from my username, you can find it.

I can let you know what my doc says but basically, from taking 100mg/day of Clomid, my total T went up from ~300s to ~high 600s, but my Free T did nothing.

I dont know what else to do but convince the doc to prescribe TRT... :/

[mavsman41]

Yeah that's unfortunate man I'm sorry. I'm hoping to avoid trt until my 30s. But whatever it takes to get the energy and normalcy back.

Did you always have this problem or is this a late onset issue? I probably never had freak genetics, hormonally speaking. But before my recent prohormone use I felt and looked great... so I'm cautiously optimistic my body will return to homeostasis. We will see.

[mavsman41]

What were your estrogen and shbg numbers? Have you worked with another doctor? Urologists are the way to go in my experience

[jimmyinkedup]

Im wondering what kind of jump the 2 added week of clomid therapy will cause, if any, or if you have peaked.

[mavsman41]

Yeah exactly. That's what I will be looking to see. My energy is actually up and I can say I have noticed a difference in my body over the last week so I'm anxious to see if I can go up even higher. Nevertheless, I'm aware my levels will decrease after the clomid.

However I'm hoping I'm suffering from a failed pct rather than permanent hypogonadism. Time will tell.

[Low Testosterone]

Just food for thought after reading the initial post:

1. It can take a full year or more to recover from steroid use, even with a PCT. The number of men I keep hearing talk about PCT, honestly the term is starting to annoy me a little bit. I'm a bit of a libertarian in my thinking, if people want to use steroids for non-medical purposes that's none of my business. But this idea that PCT's are lifesavers it basically nothing more than a bunch of grown men lying to themselves. We believe what we want to believe. I'm not saying PCT doesn't work, I'm saying it often doesn't and far more often doesn't work as well as people tend to think.

2. You may or may not recover. It does look like your levels are inching up.

3. Having facial hair or not really isn't an indication of low testosterone. What if you had never had a beard in your life, does that mean you have low testosterone? And plenty of men come in every day with single to double digit readings with full beards.

4. If you do end up having permeant low testosterone, don't freak out, you can easily still have kids.

5. I haven't read everyones reply, but Clomid may or may not be all you need. Personally I prefer restarts of HCG and Clomid. Regardless, it's a crap shoot.

6. How do you know the Nolvadex was fake? You can't know this unless you tested it. And this kind of gets back to what I said in point number one. Time and time again, guy runs cycle, guy does PCT, guy has blood done 2wks after PCT or even 3 months after PCT, things look OK and he says "I'm a genius!" Well, you can only say that after a year of no gear and then check the levels.

7. Don't be freaked out by TRT. If you don't end up needing, hey that's great. But there are a million worse things to have to deal with and TRT is pretty damn simple.

[mavsman41]

LowT I think you're assessment is pretty accurate. There is never a guarantee pct will help.

And I agree it can take a while to recover. Coming off an test cycle in the past it took a while to feel normal again. I've just never experienced this kind of dramatic crash (and obviously dissapointing bloodwork).

Good news is: my numbers were slowly rising on their own. My levels have almost doubled with the clomid at a low dose and in less than a month. Maybe tmi but I'm getting morning wood for the first time since this issue arose about eight months ago. Balls are also slightly more full? Didn't have small boys but they are definitely increasing in size... And even hurt from time to time. This could signal testicular hypertrophy back to my normal state.

I'll try and keep an optimistic mindset and relax a bit but having everybody's input is awesome and I appreciate it guys.

LowT, by having children do you mean that any damage to sperm production by trt is reversible through hcg and a serm?

[mavsman41]

Lowtestosterone.... If I do go the trt route, and I won't decide on this for some time, would you give pellets a try or just go straight for pins?

[vrocketv]

Yeah that's unfortunate man I'm sorry. I'm hoping to avoid trt until my 30s. But whatever it takes to get the energy and normalcy back.

Did you always have this problem or is this a late onset issue? I probably never had freak genetics, hormonally speaking. But before my recent prohormone use I felt and looked great... so I'm cautiously optimistic my body will return to homeostasis. We will see.

Ya.. I don't know what else to do man. I agree with you though...whatever it takes. Met with the doctor and he basically said: " there is nothing wrong with you. your total went up with the Clomid and although free testosterone stayed the same, the lab most likely just mis-tested that part. Lets wait two months and see what happens"

Im not going to let some doctor tell ME that everything is good when it's not. Especially when confirming blood tests are staring him in the face.

I am not sure if I have always had this problem, but I can tell you that over the last year or two I have been feeling worse and worse, which is why i decided to test my blood in the first place.

[mavsman41]

Brotha find a new doc. I'm
On my third. I was told I needed to seek psychiatric help to start an ssri because I "am well developed and look fine". Many doctors will tell you that because you are within "range"(including the elderly) you are good to go. I would look into a urologist who specializes in reproductive health. I was able to locate a guy who is pretty understanding and very well versed in male issues. He's the first doc I've met with that actually recognized I wasn't within range FOR MY AGE.

Hold tight and find another doc man. Endos are retarded btw regarding our issue - they treat diabetes on a day to day basis and testosterone for the elderly not young guys like us.

[Low Testosterone]

Lowtestosterone.... If I do go the trt route, and I won't decide on this for some time, would you give pellets a try or just go straight for pins?

I don't like pellets because to adjust anything you have to go digging back in there.

[lovbyts]

Just food for thought after reading the initial post:

1. It can take a full year or more to recover from steroid use, even with a PCT. The number of men I keep hearing talk about PCT, honestly the term is starting to annoy me a little bit. I'm a bit of a libertarian in my thinking, if people want to use steroids for non-medical purposes that's none of my business. But this idea that PCT's are lifesavers it basically nothing more than a bunch of grown men lying to themselves. We believe what we want to believe. I'm not saying PCT doesn't work, I'm saying it often doesn't and far more often doesn't work as well as people tend to think.

2. You may or may not recover. It does look like your levels are inching up.

3. Having facial hair or not really isn't an indication of low testosterone. What if you had never had a beard in your life, does that mean you have low testosterone? And plenty of men come in every day with single to double digit readings with full beards.

4. If you do end up having permeant low testosterone, don't freak out, you can easily still have kids.

5. I haven't read everyones reply, but Clomid may or may not be all you need. Personally I prefer restarts of HCG and Clomid. Regardless, it's a crap shoot.

6. How do you know the Nolvadex was fake? You can't know this unless you tested it. And this kind of gets back to what I said in point number one. Time and time again, guy runs cycle, guy does PCT, guy has blood done 2wks after PCT or even 3 months after PCT, things look OK and he says "I'm a genius!" Well, you can only say that after a year of no gear and then check the levels.

7. Don't be freaked out by TRT. If you don't end up needing, hey that's great. But there are a million worse things to have to deal with and TRT is pretty damn simple.

I would love to copy/paste this to some of the newbies. I keep telling these kids that just because they arent showing any negative symptoms right after a cycle or their buddies that they really dont know until a year or two down the road with no aas use and sometimes even longer.

[mavsman41]

^ agreed. I'm sure I come off as an uneducated jackass from the information I've given. Experimenting with hormones is a huge mistake and even with professionals, it is an inexact science. I wish there was more protection in place for young guys going to the local supp shop. Whereas you would think the local gnc ect would be looking out for you're well being, there is a total disregard for health. I know you shouldn't trust some dope collecting an hourly paycheck at the retail store down the street, but at a young age you tend to trust others too much. They will push the get big quick mentality every day. I take full responsibility for my mistakes but I wish there was someone who would have directed me to proper nutrition and education before exposing me to prohormones. Luckily I didn't walk out with a baby dick haha!

But I wish I knew then what I knew now.

Btw guys - week 4 on clomid 25/Ed and I'm horny as hell again. I know this is unusual so I'm taking this as a great sign.

[vrocketv]

Ever consider HCG only treatment? My doc says that since I responded somewhat to the Clomid, I should try HCG only before going full force into TRT.

Thoughts?

[mavsman41]

Yes I'm going to be doing a few more weeks with clomid. Then after some time and new bloodwork I will consider a short term lower dose hcg cycle with clomid for a month and low dose nolva for 6 wks.

Then wait again. And if I can't stabile around 500-700 Tt and decent free t, I'll go trt.

Time can be my best friend because I have a case where this was mostly brought on by drug abuse (prohormones, aas)

[pravikhaira85]

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[pravikhaira85]

Sry guyz didnt knw how to post, and nw dont evn knw hw to del the earlier posts. Plese if sumbody can del these extra posts, feel free to do so

[mavsman41]

Getting blood drawn tomorrow morning and will post lab results when they come in.

[kelkel]

Yes I'm going to be doing a few more weeks with clomid. Then after some time and new bloodwork I will consider a short term lower dose hcg cycle with clomid for a month and low dose nolva for 6 wks.

What's your point with the above concoction?

[mavsman41]

Lol kelkel it's just something I've read. I've read that if clomid did not get me going, I probably should have used hcg and using it with nolva or clomid could help me get going.

Just want to try anything I can before committing to trt.

Still waiting on most recent bloodwork.

Kelkel I hope you won't think I'm stupid for asking but would it be completely idiotic to run some test prop for six weeks and then come off with a great hcg nolva and clomid pct and see if that does it?

I know exogenous test will shut me down but I'm hitting it hard in the gym with very little results and my diet is nearly flawless. I'm lethargic and somewhat depressed. I sound like a ***** I'm sure but I'm tired of feeling like ass and I can't imagine a short test cycle with a great pct could make me any worse off. Am I totally off base with that thinking?

[kelkel]

Well know that clomid is stimulatory to your LH level and HCG is suppressive. This is why they are not run simultaneously. I did not re-read the thread and refresh myself but you can google the Power PCT Protocol by Scally.

You need to make up your mind. Do you want to restart or run a cycle? I can't help you there as it's a personal decision. I can't say it will make you worse off either as when on cycle your levels will be supraphysiological so you'll definitely feel better, in most cases anyway. That said, your BW will be in any day now so lets see how that looks before you make a decision........imho.