Cycling hcg on trt? Always on hcg ? Opinions & experiences thanks
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Cycling hcg on trt? Always on hcg ? Opinions & experiences thanks
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I have yet to see any convincing evidence that there is a need to cycle HCG while on TRT. You have few options if you want to maintain fertility, but even without the desire to maintain fertility (that ship has long since sailed for some of us), there is good reason for using HCG and not cycle it.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveanthony
What about the whole argument that it will desensitize if you run it for too long. I watched a video dylan gimili (i take everything he says with a grain of salt) but he insisted that cycling hcg for 4 weeks at a time is the right way and using it continuously for long periods of time its a very bad idea. Heres the linkQuote:
Originally Posted by Youthful55guy
https://youtu.be/uQnRt3rTqac
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That guy is notorious over this board because of the poorly advice he gives. On TRT you use relatively small doses of HCG (250IU 2x weekly) , that's usually enough to prevent atrophy from disuse and hopefully help with fertility. Desensitization might be true with prolonged administration of very high doses, if anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveanthony
Myself I got on TRT since 24, no doctor warned me about fertility issues but I don't care, in fact I'm looking into ways other than surgery to kill my sperm count, I should get it checked soon to see where it's at.
So for those of us that do not care about fertility due to age what are the other benefits to running HGC long term on a TRT cycle? I know there are benefits, you didnt cover them so I am simply asking.
Oh yes, there are. Firstly, there is the psychological implication of not witnessing your nuts shrink, if you mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by prenes
Secondly, there are hormone precursors to Testosterone - pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA - these are part of testicular output that is lost after suppression by TRT and play a role in mood, cognition, overall wellbeing and even libido, but it's individual, there can be sides also and most common is high E2 from continuous stimulation by HCG.
Hmm so it appears that you also make the argument that continuous use of HGC will raise E2 levels.
What are the drawbacks on starting trt that young from your experience?Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzarro
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I didn't mean that, HCG is an LH mimic but it acts a bit differently... LH is released in a pulsatile fashion from the pituitary, while HCG will have sustained levels due to much longer survival time in blood. This might bring E2 levels up due to continuous stimulation, but it isn't usually an issue with the low maintenance dosages used in a TRT protocol.Quote:
Originally Posted by prenes
If you need it then you need it, no way around at that point, the more you go with low T the worse, especially under 25.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveanthony
I'm almost 28 now and I'm still struggling with sexual and overall functioning.
will an AI help to combat the high levels brought on by HGC or does it only effect the E2 levels from exogen test?
I started at 38 and now I'm 42. I've been on HCG the whole time, never cycled. I take 4 pumps of androgen daily. I started at 250iu's twice a week. My nuts were getting soft on that dose. I then went to 250ui's every M,W, F and that went well for a while. I then tried 150iu's every day and that went well too. I got tired of sticking myself everyday and went up to 350iu's every M, W, F.
My current protocol is 500iu's every other day. I read an article by Dr. Saya who tried out different protocols and found that to be the best. I also tried it and it's the best for me too. I've been on it for 2 years now.
And are you using hcg? I found on a test cycle my libido was shit without hcgQuote:
Originally Posted by bizzarro
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I couldn't get past the first minute of the video. The guy obviously does not understand reproductive endocrinology. He's also talking about HCG use in a steroid PCT, which is very different than long term use in TRT. Bottom line, is that there are no published studies that I know of that implicate HCG in desensitizing either the Leydig cells or the Sertoli Cells in the testicles. If you have some evidence please share it. Desensitization is a myth of Bro science passed down in the locker rooms and now the internet by idiots like the guy in the video. Kind of like our Toddler In Chief, you tell a lie convincingly enough and repeat it over and over, a certain percentage of weak minded people will believe it as the truth. I've posted numerous times on what I think is the origin of this myth, so as far as I'm concerned this is a non-issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveanthony
Yea he goes into the trt discussion on long term use, as i said i dont trust the guy he just seemed set on the fact it could cause damage in the long haul without breaks. Thanks for the info !Quote:
Originally Posted by Youthful55guy
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There is some evidence that testicular produced T aromatized faster than exogenously administered T. The testicles have a high concentration of aromatase enzymes and intratesticular testosterone is always higher than plasma levels when the testicles are active. This is actually necessary for sperm cell maturation and it is used as a marker for fertility. Although, the thought of someone sticking a needle into my testicles to draw blood for testing makes me cringe. As with any TRT protocol, the goal is to get to stable levels of hormones and use labs as a guidepost to adjust dosages and to control side-effects. You only treat E2 with an aromatase inhibitor if the labs dictate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by prenes
No HCG but I do use some exogenous progesterone in order to get mood and libido up. I feel virtually asexuated without progesterone.Quote:
Originally Posted by daveanthony
FYI: to all reading this thread. As Bizzaro and I have discussed in other threads, you must be EXTREMELY careful when using exogenous progesterone (P4)in a male TRT protocol. And this goes for synthetic anabolic steroids with progestin-like activity that are often stacked by bodybuilders. We all know and understand that high E2 can cause gynecomastia, but it is much more potent in this regard when progesterone levels are elevated. I believe this is the root of the paranoia I see in so many threads in this and other forums of high E2. Yes, high E2 is not good, but it gets a much worse reputation because of bodybuilder abuse of anabolic steroids without understand what they are doing. In the quest for big muscles, they often layer (stack) several anabolic hormones on top of each other without knowing how they interact.Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzarro
Some anabolic steroids also have progesterone like activity. If you stack these with high levels of testosterone and don't control the conversion of T to E2, you are ripe for beginning development of gynecomastia. If your prolactin levels get out of control, you are in for a SEVERE case of gynecomastia (e.g., lactation). This is exactly what happens during the 3rd trimester of pregnancy. The placenta is producing very high levels of both E2 and P4 and at the same time producing a hormone called Placental Lactogen, which has both prolactin and growth hormone activity.
Can confirm the above.
I was having untreated high prolactin and when started used progestins that triggered a surge of bilateral gyno... I feel lucky in that some caber to suppress prolactin was all it needed to get rid of the lumps.
hi bizzaro. i had low dhea in my last labs and my doc said we will monitor and possibly start supplementing. what do you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzarro
It depends how you respond to it, some just can't tolerate DHEA, but if you decide to supplement, go with micronized DHEA, as this will escape liver metabolism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Closhmo
Hi Biz and Youthful,
My trt doc raised my hcg dosage to 500IUx2 per week and prescribed DHEA 25mg/day in response to my last labs. The 500IUx2 per week might be temp or permanent, not sure. Is that HCG dosage to high? I do feel even better since raising the dose and adding DHEA. The Doc also sourced Anastrozole at .25mg for 2xweek administration, I was taking .5. I feel less emotional lability now.
-Idk if this relates but my eyes are red and a little swollen, some days, when I wake. I went to a party last week and some dumbass asked me if I was holding...
What was the reason for upping dose? Response to HCG dose will be individual, we advise standard dosages here but it can be adjusted.
Good about the DHEA, I'll have my levels tested next month and see if I can benefit from supplementation.
I can indeed relate about emotional lability and low estrogen, just watch through bw whether it doesn't actually get high from both upping HCG and lowering AI. DHEA can act as an estrogen also, and be converted to estrogen.
No idea about the swollen eyes, sounds more like allergy to me.
BW values of note (from last draw--06/28/2017--, taken hours before test injection): I had not been taking the HCG and my Test-c was almost double what it is now (a total of 160/week v 90/week(now)):
Testosterone, Serum 1035 ng/dL (348 - 1197)
Free Testosterone(Direct) 19.7 pg/mL (6.8 - 21.5)
Dihydrotestosterone 85 ng/dL (30 - 85)
Estradiol, Sensitive 14.0 pg/mL 8.0 - 35.0
**DHEA-Sulfate 103.8 ug/dL (102.6 - 416.3)
**Luteinizing Hormone(LH), S LH 0.1 Low mIU/mL (1.7 - 8.6)
Lipid Panel w/ Chol/HDL Ratio
-Cholesterol, Total 221 High mg/dL (100 - 199)-----This was around 185 in sum 2016.
-Triglycerides 70 mg/dL (0 - 149) -----------This was very low in summer 2016.
-HDL Cholesterol 50 mg/dL (>39)------------My HDL was 72 in summer of 2016.
-VLDL Cholesterol Cal 14 mg/dL (5 - 40)
-LDL Cholesterol Calc 157 High mg/dL (0 - 99)----This was in range in summer of '2016
-T. Chol/HDL Ratio 4.4 ratio units (0.0 - 5.0)
Prostate Specific Ag, Serum 0.5 ng/mL (0.0 - 4.0)
All else is ok.
The HCG is primarily for the LH. In ragrd to CHolesterol values, will HCG cause my body to manufacture some sex steroids and thereby lower my cholesterol?
Started at 28
Roughly a little over 200mgs a week one injection
Overtime figured out I do well on 80mg twice a week and so far things have been good and some AI added in also helped control my TRT better
Starting a heavy cycle soon, currently waiting on blood work and see what levels I'm at. I have a level chart in mind when I want to cycle