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Thread: New, was just prescribed 200mg/week have concerns...

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    Railroader is offline New Member
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    New, was just prescribed 200mg/week have concerns...

    Quick background, 34yo 205# have been in and out of the gym every 2-3 years have ALWAYS made insanely quick gains thanks stellar muscle memory and being a gym RAT for 3 years in my early 20s. Jumped back into the gym recently and gains and recovery times were a disaster, strength loss was unheard of for me vs what Im used to after a long break, low(ish) libido so I went to see a low T doc. To be honest, working with a group of guys ALL on TRT making crazy easy gains also aided in the decision as well.

    Estradiol E2 = 46

    Free test= 5.65
    SHBG = 21.9
    Total test= 236

    Doc started me on 200mg weekly and scheduled follow-up in 8 weeks to adjust.

    Heres my concerns after researching the dozens of conflicting advice out there...
    Is 200mg/wk going to absolutely shut my normal production down completely?? This concerns me the most, Ive never done a cycle of any sort or any hard supps, protein and creatine with a good diet has always worked fantastic for me in the past so Im not sure if sticking with that would eventually bring my test levels back up to a reasonable range and I dont want to do any long term damage just to get a quick "head start" because honestly I dont feel all that bad and had the labs not shown me I had low T I wouldnt have even concerned myself with it. I currently dont have any ED, Im just not "AS" horny as I used to be but if its time Im ready to go at will.
    I quit drinking alcohol completely about a month ago after becoming nearly a full blown binge alcoholic so im curious if that aided in my low T results??

    LONG story short... I dont want to wreck my body over this. Am I over-reacting or is 200mg/wk nothing to sweat over? According to some, its a waste of time apparently. Im just trying to be as educated as possible but its difficult with all the keyboard Docs from site to site spewing completely opposite info as gospel.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New, was just prescribed 200mg/week have concerns...-20170902_153032.jpg   New, was just prescribed 200mg/week have concerns...-20170902_152950.jpg   New, was just prescribed 200mg/week have concerns...-20170902_152913.jpg   New, was just prescribed 200mg/week have concerns...-20170902_152836.jpg  
    Last edited by Railroader; 09-02-2017 at 02:46 PM. Reason: Added Labs

  2. #2
    daveanthony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Quick background, 34yo 205# have been in and out of the gym every 2-3 years have ALWAYS made insanely quick gains thanks stellar muscle memory and being a gym RAT for 3 years in my early 20s. Jumped back into the gym recently and gains and recovery times were a disaster, strength loss was unheard of for me vs what Im used to after a long break, low(ish) libido so I went to see a low T doc. To be honest, working with a group of guys ALL on TRT making crazy easy gains also aided in the decision as well.

    Estradiol E2 = 46

    Free test= 5.65
    SHBG = 21.9
    Total test= 236

    Doc started me on 200mg weekly and scheduled follow-up in 8 weeks to adjust.

    Heres my concerns after researching the dozens of conflicting advice out there...
    Is 200mg/wk going to absolutely shut my normal production down completely?? This concerns me the most, Ive never done a cycle of any sort or any hard supps, protein and creatine with a good diet has always worked fantastic for me in the past so Im not sure if sticking with that would eventually bring my test levels back up to a reasonable range and I dont want to do any long term damage just to get a quick "head start" because honestly I dont feel all that bad and had the labs not shown me I had low T I wouldnt have even concerned myself with it. I currently dont have any ED, Im just not "AS" horny as I used to be but if its time Im ready to go at will.
    I quit drinking alcohol completely about a month ago after becoming nearly a full blown binge alcoholic so im curious if that aided in my low T results??

    LONG story short... I dont want to wreck my body over this. Am I over-reacting or is 200mg/wk nothing to sweat over? According to some, its a waste of time apparently. Im just trying to be as educated as possible but its difficult with all the keyboard Docs from site to site spewing completely opposite info as gospel.
    You will be shut down on 200mg test a week, even 100mg of test a week. Once your body is getting test from an external source your body will no longer produce it. Even with post cycle therapy there is a good chance your numbers will end up even lower than they were if you decide to get off. Why not stay on trt at your age nothing else is going to give you "optimal" test levels.


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  3. #3
    daveanthony's Avatar
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    *External testosterone does not raise your natural testosterone levels , most likely will hurt it in the long run.


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    Youthful55guy is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    ..
    Is 200mg/wk going to absolutely shut my normal production down completely??
    Short answer is yes.

    Longer, but still short, answer is to be sure to preserve testicular function while on long term TRT using HCG . You may want to have kids some day. If you don't cycle on and off without proper PCT, there is risk of losing fertility. Also, there are numerous other good reasons besides testicular size and fertility to maintain an LH signal with HCG.

    Soap Box answer: You need to decide why you are doing this. If you don't have any low T symptoms, then there is no medical reason for TRT. However, if muscle gain is important, then you have your answer (no judgement intended).
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    Railroader is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    Short answer is yes.

    Longer, but still short, answer is to be sure to preserve testicular function while on long term TRT using HCG . You may want to have kids some day. If you don't cycle on and off without proper PCT, there is risk of losing fertility. Also, there are numerous other good reasons besides testicular size and fertility to maintain an LH signal with HCG.

    Soap Box answer: You need to decide why you are doing this. If you don't have any low T symptoms, then there is no medical reason for TRT. However, if muscle gain is important, then you have your answer (no judgement intended).
    Fair answer.

    I did leave out that I nearly got divorced this year after 11 years over crazy mood swings, and what appeared to be a midlife crisis doing stupid shit so... maybe Im just cherry coating my life and the way I feel so I dont "fit" into someone who needs TRT (like its a bad thing, when its really not). I just injected my first dose 4 hours ago, I think I owe it to myself and my family after the stunts I pulled to continue until I see the doctor in 8 weeks. Maybe the low T is at fault more than Im willing to admit (because I have to actually admit it was my fault). Ill continue researching in the meantime and DEFINITELY bring up HCG and cycling up to the Doc when I go back in.

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    With those low test levels i would not consider cycling unless your ready for a rollercoaster every time you decide to get off. Either stick with the trt and keep stable optimal testosterone levels or talk to your doctor about clomid. Clomid will raise your natural testosterone but it will drop back down when you get off. Clomid alone wont do much for crazy gains but it could get your levels higher without deciding the trt route right away.


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    dikow is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by daveanthony View Post
    With those low test levels i would not consider cycling unless your ready for a rollercoaster every time you decide to get off. Either stick with the trt and keep stable optimal testosterone levels or talk to your doctor about clomid. Clomid will raise your natural testosterone but it will drop back down when you get off. Clomid alone wont do much for crazy gains but it could get your levels higher without deciding the trt route right away.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    What about taking Clomid 12.5 mg (or even 6.25 mg) 2-1 times per week? Do I have a greater chance to minimize Clomid's side effects while still getting the benefits of raising my Low T?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Fair answer.

    I did leave out that I nearly got divorced this year after 11 years over crazy mood swings, and what appeared to be a midlife crisis doing stupid shit so... maybe Im just cherry coating my life and the way I feel so I dont "fit" into someone who needs TRT (like its a bad thing, when its really not). I just injected my first dose 4 hours ago, I think I owe it to myself and my family after the stunts I pulled to continue until I see the doctor in 8 weeks. Maybe the low T is at fault more than Im willing to admit (because I have to actually admit it was my fault). Ill continue researching in the meantime and DEFINITELY bring up HCG and cycling up to the Doc when I go back in.
    Did you figure out why you had such low Levels of T in the first place?

    Do you work with the railroad and are exposed to toxins at work?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Fair answer.

    I did leave out that I nearly got divorced this year after 11 years over crazy mood swings, and what appeared to be a midlife crisis doing stupid shit so... maybe Im just cherry coating my life and the way I feel so I dont "fit" into someone who needs TRT (like its a bad thing, when its really not). I just injected my first dose 4 hours ago, I think I owe it to myself and my family after the stunts I pulled to continue until I see the doctor in 8 weeks. Maybe the low T is at fault more than Im willing to admit (because I have to actually admit it was my fault). Ill continue researching in the meantime and DEFINITELY bring up HCG and cycling up to the Doc when I go back in.
    What exactly did you do or are you doing? Mood swings are definitely a sign of Low T especially depression. Also on your Total T, what was the reference range of the test. Depending on that you are either low or very very low.
    “If you can't explain it to a second grader, you probably don't understand it yourself.” Albert Einstein

    "Juice slow, train smart, it's a long journey."
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    "In a world full of pussies, being a redneck is not a bad thing."
    OB

    Body building is a way of life..........but can not get in the way of your life.
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    Sh0tsf1red is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Quick background, 34yo 205# have been in and out of the gym every 2-3 years have ALWAYS made insanely quick gains thanks stellar muscle memory and being a gym RAT for 3 years in my early 20s. Jumped back into the gym recently and gains and recovery times were a disaster, strength loss was unheard of for me vs what Im used to after a long break, low(ish) libido so I went to see a low T doc. To be honest, working with a group of guys ALL on TRT making crazy easy gains also aided in the decision as well.

    Estradiol E2 = 46

    Free test= 5.65
    SHBG = 21.9
    Total test= 236

    Doc started me on 200mg weekly and scheduled follow-up in 8 weeks to adjust.

    Heres my concerns after researching the dozens of conflicting advice out there...
    Is 200mg/wk going to absolutely shut my normal production down completely?? This concerns me the most, Ive never done a cycle of any sort or any hard supps, protein and creatine with a good diet has always worked fantastic for me in the past so Im not sure if sticking with that would eventually bring my test levels back up to a reasonable range and I dont want to do any long term damage just to get a quick "head start" because honestly I dont feel all that bad and had the labs not shown me I had low T I wouldnt have even concerned myself with it. I currently dont have any ED, Im just not "AS" horny as I used to be but if its time Im ready to go at will.
    I quit drinking alcohol completely about a month ago after becoming nearly a full blown binge alcoholic so im curious if that aided in my low T results??

    LONG story short... I dont want to wreck my body over this. Am I over-reacting or is 200mg/wk nothing to sweat over? According to some, its a waste of time apparently. Im just trying to be as educated as possible but its difficult with all the keyboard Docs from site to site spewing completely opposite info as gospel.
    Gong on TRT is literally a life changing and life long commitment, can't stress this enough

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    hammerheart is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    If you don't have any low T symptoms, then there is no medical reason for TRT.
    Well I don't think that's fully correct nowadays we're aware low T can increase incidence of CV disease and diabetes, it's proven by research.

    Loss of bone strength and osteopenia are also a concern over long term.
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    hammerheart is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Fair answer.

    I did leave out that I nearly got divorced this year after 11 years over crazy mood swings, and what appeared to be a midlife crisis doing stupid shit so... maybe Im just cherry coating my life and the way I feel so I dont "fit" into someone who needs TRT (like its a bad thing, when its really not). I just injected my first dose 4 hours ago, I think I owe it to myself and my family after the stunts I pulled to continue until I see the doctor in 8 weeks. Maybe the low T is at fault more than Im willing to admit (because I have to actually admit it was my fault). Ill continue researching in the meantime and DEFINITELY bring up HCG and cycling up to the Doc when I go back in.
    Researching is always good, TRT is definitely not a waste if you do it correctly which most GPs and even endo fail to do, in fact for many of us here is a life saver. You are already displaying many low T symptoms and your Test is friggin low so imo there is no reason to wait, find a doc willing to prescribe HCG and eventually do a lower dosage, maybe even split 2x weekly (every 3.5 days) but many do well on every 5 days pin already.

    200mg weekly in fact is high end TRT and will increase your estrogen significantly, that means AI would be needed and for sure if your going to use HCG as this will also add to E2.

    If I'd have to advise anyone about the most basic TRT protocol, 100mg e5d would be my answer.

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    Youthful55guy is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Fair answer.

    I did leave out that I nearly got divorced this year after 11 years over crazy mood swings, and what appeared to be a midlife crisis doing stupid shit so... maybe Im just cherry coating my life and the way I feel so I dont "fit" into someone who needs TRT (like its a bad thing, when its really not). I just injected my first dose 4 hours ago, I think I owe it to myself and my family after the stunts I pulled to continue until I see the doctor in 8 weeks. Maybe the low T is at fault more than Im willing to admit (because I have to actually admit it was my fault). Ill continue researching in the meantime and DEFINITELY bring up HCG and cycling up to the Doc when I go back in.
    Mood swings, and particularly depression, are symptoms of low T. It's much more robust of a symptom list than simply ED and libido. So perhaps the tests are validating what you feel but just don't associate with Low T.

    Regarding testicular preservation, I'm not a huge fan of clomid. I've played with it and it does seem to be effective, but it carries its own list of side-effects. I'm more of a proponent of HCG , dosing at anywhere between 500 and 1000 IU per week in at least 3 divided doses.

    I also agree with one of the previous posters that you should not cycle while on TRT. There is no reason for it and will only lead to massive mood swings. I had to go off TRT a couple times for about a week and it was not a pleasant experience. The goal of TRT is to make it a lifelong sustainable treatment. I highly advocate smaller and more frequent dosing (same overall amount, just broken up). This will allow you to use insulin syringes and that makes the injections virtually pain-free and sustainable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    Did you figure out why you had such low Levels of T in the first place?

    That's the question.
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    Railroader is offline New Member
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    I wish I knew what caused me to have low T but I have no idea. I've not had any injuries down there but I've been stressed hardcore for years.
    I was a firefighter/emt for 6 years, custom painted cars for a few years and the last thing on my mind was protecting myself while being exposed to all those chemicals 50+hrs a week and now I work for the railroad which is probably the LEAST hazardous beleive it or not lol. Not the most "healthy" career choices that's for sure.
    I think starting on my next injection I will do 100mg 2x a week until my follow up. Seems to be the trend to dose more frequently.

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    Railroader is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    What exactly did you do or are you doing? Mood swings are definitely a sign of Low T especially depression. Also on your Total T, what was the reference range of the test. Depending on that you are either low or very very low.
    Ranges were
    Free test 4.60-22.40 (5.65)
    SHBG 10.0-77.0 (21.9)
    Total test 350-781 (236)
    Estradiol 7.6-42.6 (46.0)

    The referenced "stupid shit" was totally out of character decisions. Basically partying like a kid, binge drinking 3-4x a week mostly by myself, almost begging to be divorced.....literally Im shocked she's still here. Made an ass of myself that's for sure even though at the time I felt justified, looking back its was insanity and, again, WAY out of character for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Ranges were
    Free test 4.60-22.40 (5.65)
    SHBG 10.0-77.0 (21.9)
    Total test 350-781 (236)
    Estradiol 7.6-42.6 (46.0)

    The referenced "stupid shit" was totally out of character decisions. Basically partying like a kid, binge drinking 3-4x a week mostly by myself, almost begging to be divorced.....literally Im shocked she's still here. Made an ass of myself that's for sure even though at the time I felt justified, looking back its was insanity and, again, WAY out of character for me.
    I certainly think with your test being extremely low and your Estrogen being very high that can have an effect on mood to a large extent. You're not producing much test and what you are is being converted to estrogen. Are you still drinking heavily or partaking in a certain plant? Both are know to decrease T and increase estrogen.

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    Railroader is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    I certainly think with your test being extremely low and your Estrogen being very high that can have an effect on mood to a large extent. You're not producing much test and what you are is being converted to estrogen. Are you still drinking heavily or partaking in a certain plant? Both are know to decrease T and increase estrogen.
    No, I haven't had a single drop of alcohol since I realized what was going on have never been willing willing to risk my career over the plant variety lol. Im drug/alcohol free. No pills either.
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    Do you happen to have, or can you obtain a copy of your pre-TRT blood work? Looking for LH/FSH, prolactin, cortisol, thyroid.
    Head trauma?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Do you happen to have, or can you obtain a copy of your pre-TRT blood work? Looking for LH/FSH, prolactin, cortisol, thyroid.
    Head trauma?
    When I get home this afternoon Ill attach a copy of all my bloodwork pre-trt. My liver enzymes were super high but we attributed that to severe DOMS. Aside from that it all looked pretty good.

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    This has really intrigued me as to what could have caused this and NEVER once thought about it until you guys mentioned it. The more I think about it the more Im beginning to suspect it was the paint chemicals. I custom painted and airbrushed with automotive paint for roughly 3-4 years only wearing a respirator occasionally like an idiot. Im talking, 8-10hr a day exposure to High VOC paints, methyl ethyl ketone, paint thinner....etc. This was roughly 6-7 years ago and that's about when I can just about pinpoint in my life when my motivation just about ceased. I often over the last few years will sit and SERIOUSLY wonder WTF ever happened to my motivation because I'm NOTHING like I was when I was in my 20s in that aspect....Those chemicals may be the culprit.
    The only other thing I can think of was an ATV accident around that same time I flipped and rolled, lost my shoes, got banged up pretty good and DISTINCTLY remember the taste, smell and sensation of what I later learned in school was probably CFS fluid leaking from my nose. I was able to walk it off and never went to the hospital but Ill never forget that. When I got up there was a distinct and Very weird "calm" feeling until I regained my composure and had the "oh SHIT, OUCH" moment.

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    Youthful55guy is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    I wish I knew what caused me to have low T but I have no idea. I've not had any injuries down there but I've been stressed hardcore for years.
    I was a firefighter/emt for 6 years, custom painted cars for a few years and the last thing on my mind was protecting myself while being exposed to all those chemicals 50+hrs a week and now I work for the railroad which is probably the LEAST hazardous beleive it or not lol. Not the most "healthy" career choices that's for sure.
    I think starting on my next injection I will do 100mg 2x a week until my follow up. Seems to be the trend to dose more frequently.
    Another thought. I am generally not a proponent of starting guys off at 200 mg per week. It's on the upper end of what the vast majority of guys need to keep their T levels within range. I always recommend starting at 100 mg per week in at least 2 divided doses (e.g., 50 mg 2x or 40 mg E3D). With more frequent dosing, you will find you can get by with an overall lower amount of T per week and feel better in the process. It's a much smoother ride with fewer side-effect. I'm fairly certain that within 6 months your hematocrit/hemoglobin will get out of range an be difficult to control, even with the maximum allowable frequency of blood donations. E is also going to be something you will need to watch and control. With lower and more frequent dosing, side-effects are much easier to control.

    If after 4 to 6 week the follow up labs at ~100 mg per week show you need more, then increase it by about 10% and retest in another 4 to 6 weeks. Repeat this until you have the desired lab results. The important thing with hormones is to make adjustments at a slow rate and always follow up with labs. Hormones have a cascade effect in the body and adjusting one can throw many others into a period of adjustment until a new equilibrium is attained. This generally takes 4 to 6 weeks.

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    Youthful55guy is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Ranges were
    Free test 4.60-22.40 (5.65)
    SHBG 10.0-77.0 (21.9)
    Total test 350-781 (236)
    Estradiol 7.6-42.6 (46.0)

    The referenced "stupid shit" was totally out of character decisions. Basically partying like a kid, binge drinking 3-4x a week mostly by myself, almost begging to be divorced.....literally Im shocked she's still here. Made an ass of myself that's for sure even though at the time I felt justified, looking back its was insanity and, again, WAY out of character for me.
    You don't know how much I can relate to that story. Even worse, my wife was going through menopause hormonal hell at the time too. That was almost 6 years ago, we are both on stable hormone replacement protocols and life is good.
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    Youthful55guy is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Do you happen to have, or can you obtain a copy of your pre-TRT blood work? Looking for LH/FSH, prolactin, cortisol, thyroid.
    Head trauma?
    In your case, being so low at such a young age, I agree with Kel's and other comments that you need to at least figure out what's causing the problem. At a minimum you should know if you are primary (testicles aren't doing their job) or secondary (hypothalamus/pituitary are not doing their job), or if it's a more exotic cause such as a pituitary tumor (suspect if prolactin is high). We can rule out problems with SHBG (my own personal challenge), as your labs look fine for SHBG. Full and robust labs are the key, but the problem is now that you are on TRT, it's going to be difficult to diagnose because, per my previous post, once you introduce exogenous T into the system, there will be a cascade in hormonal balance throughout the body.

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    Youthful55guy is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    This has really intrigued me as to what could have caused this and NEVER once thought about it until you guys mentioned it. The more I think about it the more Im beginning to suspect it was the paint chemicals. I custom painted and airbrushed with automotive paint for roughly 3-4 years only wearing a respirator occasionally like an idiot. Im talking, 8-10hr a day exposure to High VOC paints, methyl ethyl ketone, paint thinner....etc. This was roughly 6-7 years ago and that's about when I can just about pinpoint in my life when my motivation just about ceased. I often over the last few years will sit and SERIOUSLY wonder WTF ever happened to my motivation because I'm NOTHING like I was when I was in my 20s in that aspect....Those chemicals may be the culprit.
    The only other thing I can think of was an ATV accident around that same time I flipped and rolled, lost my shoes, got banged up pretty good and DISTINCTLY remember the taste, smell and sensation of what I later learned in school was probably CFS fluid leaking from my nose. I was able to walk it off and never went to the hospital but Ill never forget that. When I got up there was a distinct and Very weird "calm" feeling until I regained my composure and had the "oh SHIT, OUCH" moment.
    I would suspect the accident more than the chemicals, but either could be the root cause. With the chemicals, I would expect liver damage and that might affect SHBG and possibly steroid metabolism, but I'm sure your doc must have done the standard liver labs. The most telling will be AST, ALT, and alkaline phosphatase.

    Head injuries are a common cause of secondary hypogonadism, which is low LH & FSH. These are the primary hormones that control testicular function. It's not my problem, but my original hormone doc was probably the world's foremost expert on the subject. he actually authored a textbook for doctors on the subject. I paid through the nose to see him, but he knew his stuff. Anyway, when there is trauma to the head, it can affect the ability of the hypothalamus to produce a hormone called GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). With inadequate GnRH, LH and FSH will be low and hence testicular function will be low. head trauma can also cause damage to the delicate blood vessel plexus that connects the hypothalamus to the pituitary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    I would suspect the accident more than the chemicals, but either could be the root cause.

    Head injuries are a common cause of secondary hypogonadism, which is low LH & FSH.

    Agree with both points. Look forward to seeing labs.
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  27. #27
    hammerheart is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    As for thyroid be sure to pull TSH, FT4 and FT3 not the outdated T4 and T3.

    Assessment of adrenal function is a though one but basic is ACTH, cortisol and DHEA-S.

    I agree that pituitary damage from head injure is something than needs to be investigated. GH and IGF-1 could also be compromised.

  28. #28
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    My brother whom is 20 years old just started trt. They could not find a "cause" his blood work was done by an endocrinologist and a hormone specialist. He had mri catscans you name it his test level was around 300. Not as low as some people but definitely not optimal for his age what so ever. I dont think theres always a clear answer as to why this happens. Could be the alcohol, could be the ssris, could be his shampoo. There needs to be more educated doctors in this field its ridiculous.


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  29. #29
    hammerheart is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    The issue with etiology is sometimes the answer is worth a nobel and doesn't mean condition can be reversed. A 20 years old needs adequate Test to build and enjoy his life, there is no such thing as too young for TRT if it can't be fixed otherwise of course.
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  30. #30
    Railroader is offline New Member
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    Ive added the labs the the original post.

    I want to thank you guys for the advice, help and knowledge youve given me. I really appreciate it. Priceless.

  31. #31
    hammerheart is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    Ive added the labs the the original post.

    I want to thank you guys for the advice, help and knowledge youve given me. I really appreciate it. Priceless.
    Thyroid looks 100% fine to me. The liver enzymes are elevated to a point I won't think of just DOMS anymore, unless you run a marathon before bloodwork...

    Both FSH and LH are mid-range, your Test shouldn't be that low, and that means the testes aren't responding normally, yet LH shouldn't be there if your testes were under-functioning. It looks like something physiologic or mixed primary/central, but the pituitary should be fine.

  32. #32
    Railroader is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    Thyroid looks 100% fine to me. The liver enzymes are elevated to a point I won't think of just DOMS anymore, unless you run a marathon before bloodwork...

    Both FSH and LH are mid-range, your Test shouldn't be that low, and that means the testes aren't responding normally, yet LH shouldn't be there if your testes were under-functioning. It looks like something physiologic or mixed primary/central, but the pituitary should be fine.
    I spent the better part of 2 evenings researching the AST/ALT levels and found a lot of articles relating 3-4x elevated levels due to DOMS and when I had the labs drawn I was experiencing pretty severe DOMS for a majority of my upper body. The labs were drawn 8 days after my final binge drink-a-thon where I drank 24-16oz bottles of beer in 48hrs.... to the ounce.... No doubt I was stressing my liver with all that drinking and coupled with the DOMS Im pretty sure that explains it for the most part. Doc mentioned something about my cortisol? levels being where they should be that he wasnt too concerned with the enzymes yet to explore liver problems.
    Whats odd to me is the amount of people I know personally that have tested with this Dr and shown very low test levels then walked out with a script just like that. Either low T is WAY more common than most are lead to believe or it would be easy to be a little suspicious honestly. I dont know how possible it is, if at all, to smudge some lab numbers to give what a majority of young men that make that appointment are hoping to get, but Id be lying after seeing my labs if it hasnt crossed my mind a few times. Everything else looks fine for the most part.

  33. #33
    hammerheart is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
    I spent the better part of 2 evenings researching the AST/ALT levels and found a lot of articles relating 3-4x elevated levels due to DOMS and when I had the labs drawn I was experiencing pretty severe DOMS for a majority of my upper body. The labs were drawn 8 days after my final binge drink-a-thon where I drank 24-16oz bottles of beer in 48hrs.... to the ounce.... No doubt I was stressing my liver with all that drinking and coupled with the DOMS Im pretty sure that explains it for the most part. Doc mentioned something about my cortisol? levels being where they should be that he wasnt too concerned with the enzymes yet to explore liver problems.
    Whats odd to me is the amount of people I know personally that have tested with this Dr and shown very low test levels then walked out with a script just like that. Either low T is WAY more common than most are lead to believe or it would be easy to be a little suspicious honestly. I dont know how possible it is, if at all, to smudge some lab numbers to give what a majority of young men that make that appointment are hoping to get, but Id be lying after seeing my labs if it hasnt crossed my mind a few times. Everything else looks fine for the most part.
    Ehy, didn't notice the cortisol reading. Yes, it's frigging low... that requires further investigation, see above. 24h urinary cortisol can also be of help. You had bloods pulled in the morning right?

    Know that adrenals issue mostly stem from prolonged, stressful states than anything involving pathology. Low T might be well of an explanation, you just fight your day and build up stress over time, resulting in chronic high cortisol, then a time of temporary shutdown (low cortisol) occurs. It's one of the many ways our bodies struggle to preserve homeostasis, a sort of built-in failsafe mechanism.

  34. #34
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    Why not take a couple weeks off from working out, relax as best you can and pull more BW. See if there are any significant changes.
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    Railroader is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Why not take a couple weeks off from working out, relax as best you can and pull more BW. See if there are any significant changes.
    Im going to a wedding in 5 weeks 1400mi away back home and Ill be seeing family and friends I havent seen in years.... taking time off from the gym right now is not going to happen lol. I think Im going to lower the dosage for now somewhere around 50mg e3d and pay close attention to my body in the meantime until those 8 weeks go by then see what the labs look like. Does that sound like a descent plan to you guys?

    Cutting out alcohol completely for the first time in years, eating healthier and working out regularly Im pretty confident will help IMMENSELY to fix up those enzyme levels. Ive already added loads of fish to my meal preps to help with my low HDL and am taking whole food vitamins for the other low levels shown on the labs. I just hope when I get labs done next I dont see triple digit estradiol.

    Ill keep reading in the meantime and lean on you guys if I have anything weird happen I cant find an answer to. Im glad I started here, you guys are awesome! MAssive wealth of knowledge on this forum and you guys arent intimidating or jerks at all, you dont find that very often as a new guy in forums these days, Thank you for that!

  36. #36
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    Why not plan at least a week off in conjunction with your trip. Then when back pull some BW to see if it makes a difference. Most of us are familiar with the effects of muscular trauma on liver enzymes but unfortunately many docs aren't. On top of that, taking a week or two off per year is a very healthy thing to do. I've done it for years. Our bodies and CNS need the rest. You'll come back recharged and kill it.

    Glad you like it here. Stick around, explore the other forums and have fun.
    Last edited by kelkel; 09-05-2017 at 05:31 PM.
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  37. #37
    Railroader is offline New Member
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    That sounds reasonable. Im going to be there for 10 days so Ill take it easy. I may just pay for some of my own labs when I get back to see what is where. I dont have the kind of relationship with my Doctor yet to start calling shots and making appts to pull labs on my own without him making that call. Im not sure what he would even think of that, some of them get irritated or offended when patients try to self diagnose or actually be "aware" of their own condition and Id like to keep that bridge intact for now.

    Thanks for the help Kel.

  38. #38
    CobraMustangSVT is offline Junior Member
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    Don't do 100x2.

    Do 50X 2, Let me tell you why

    If you do 100x2, and show up with a 1400 T level, the doc will cut your dose. If you take 50x2, and show up with a 500-700 number, you're still within range and he won't cut your dose. It'll let you save up T in case something happens (run out of insurance, pharmacy runs out, have to find a new doc, end of the world, etc)

    You can fine tune your own dose with outside blood work and when it comes time for your doc's bloodwork, cut your dose down so you can look OK to him.
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  39. #39
    Railroader is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by CobraMustangSVT View Post
    Don't do 100x2.

    Do 50X 2, Let me tell you why

    If you do 100x2, and show up with a 1400 T level, the doc will cut your dose. If you take 50x2, and show up with a 500-700 number, you're still within range and he won't cut your dose. It'll let you save up T in case something happens (run out of insurance, pharmacy runs out, have to find a new doc, end of the world, etc)

    You can fine tune your own dose with outside blood work and when it comes time for your doc's bloodwork, cut your dose down so you can look OK to him.
    I had planned on going in an extra day or two from my normal injection day to be SURE my levels dont show up too high and get the dose cut down but Im honestly decided to rethink that altogether. Id rather be getting accurate results from the bloodwork vs. paying out of pocket for labs of my own while trying to fool the doc at the same time. Im paying out of pocket for the Test already while insurance figures out if theyre going to cover it, Id rather not have to pay for a load of labs out of pocket as well. If this doesent make sense, its because IF I have access to "extra" test in my cupboard....Ill bet my left nut Ill be using it the second Im not worried about a follow appt, then Ive got to worry about my e2 levels and all the rest to self diagnose whatever I decide to take vs what I should be also while trying to convince the doc to prescribe me an AI that ill probably end up needing as well. Its going to cascade into a mess for sure.

    Long story short, after a lot of thought, Im going to stick to the 200mg and see what that shows. He told me he will strive to get me to the upper most level of "normal" Test range so if that ends up being 100mg, then Ill be fine with it. If I need/want more boost after that Ill just blast and cruise after I get this all figured out and monitor my own levels when the time comes. For now I just want to have normal levels and feel normal for a while without having any extra temptation I surely wont be able to resist.
    Last edited by Railroader; 09-05-2017 at 05:25 PM.

  40. #40
    Railroader is offline New Member
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    Guys, Im considering quitting trt. Im about 4 weeks in and feel no better. Im having anxiety about taking it to begin with, my resting heart rate has shot up 10-15bbm since starting (I always wear a smartwatch that logs it), Im getting hot flashes like a woman going through menopause and I had my first ever ED problem with my crazy hot 30yo blonde bombshell wife this afternoon (couldnt orgasm, went limp during the best sex weve had in a WHILE). She wasnt pleased, neither was I. Im assuming my E2 is through the ROOF right now. Im waking up every hour, on the hour at night to top it all off. This is crazy...

    The only positive Ive experienced is my performance in the gym, my pumps are awesome and Ive got veins I have never seen before which is awesome, but compared to the negatives its not worth it.

    Could high e2 be the cause of all these issues Im having?

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