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Thread: TRT - Starting over. Advice needed.

  1. #1
    Finding my MOJO is offline New Member
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    TRT - Starting over. Advice needed.

    Hi and thank you for taking the time to read and possibly offer any insight you might have......

    Started TRT with my doctor 2.5 years ago. Never felt anything other than maybe elevated energy one or two days. 200 mg T-Cyp per mo, bumped to 400 per month, no other meds. Nothing. So I stopped going.

    Off for a year and went back 1.5 months ago, looking at it from the perspective of having visited this site. Started with dose of 200mg every 3 weeks. Was told this was a horrible schedule, which bore out the reading I'd done here. So I took matters into my own hands.

    Started taking 200mg per week. I repeat, I have no other meds except the Cyp. Felt better after a month but then something bad started happening, I started retaining water like a sponge. My joints felt full and my lower back ached, I waddle instead of walk. I feel that being so FAT to begin with was mostly to blame. I wasn't working out yet, I'm trying to get my energy level up so that I CAN work out.

    So after more reading it looks like T is turning into estrogen and causing the horrible fluid retention. I'm talking about 20 pounds of it easily.

    I decided to stop and reset for the last 10 days. Pulled all my BW from my doc and there wasn't nearly as much information as is generally requested by folks on here that help a guy out. Taking some water pills and lost 15 pounds in 4 or 5 days. I went in a few days ago and got everything Kel suggested in his sticky on the forum about BW. I'm expecting the results in the next few days, unfortunately I will be out of state as my job requires. I will try to post asap. I work about 100 hours per week on networks and computers, not physical labor, but I have the opportunity to get exercise some days at work.

    So my doctor showed my how to self inject, I'm OK there. I have extra Cyp and Nol ..Va .. Dex to take. Do I need something else to start? I believe that will stop the T from turning completely into estrogen, but I am a total noob at this field, there is so much to learn. I am not going to wait to test every 3 months so that I can get to the levels I need in a year or more! I DO NOT KNOW how much of these 2 I should take to get going. I realize some of that info needed will be in the BW results.

    I am 50, , 5-7330 pounds, very much out of shape and taking on this very seriously. I am ready to make life changes and really I'm just hoping to get some energy to get started, then things will pick up from there. My T came back at 81, down from 89 a few years back. I didn't have a Free T reading or estradiol sensitive measured in prior BW. My doc told me that since my LH and FSH were normal this meant that my testes just weren't producing and TRT was my only real option.

    My goal is to get my weight down, get in good physical shape, and just feel better. Not looking to bench press a truck, just want to get myself together like an adult. Cancer, depression, drinking, and other problems coupled with a lack of motivation led me to where I am today. I am very focused on change.

    Thanks for any advice you have. I will post my results as soon as I can.

  2. #2
    Youthful55guy is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finding my MOJO View Post
    Started TRT with my doctor 2.5 years ago. Never felt anything other than maybe elevated energy one or two days. 200 mg T-Cyp per mo, bumped to 400 per month, no other meds. Nothing. So I stopped going.
    Was this doctor prescribe??? If so, the guy should have his license revoked. I won't get into why this was such a bad protocol. You already have figured that out.

    First of all, unlearn everything you think you know. There is so much misinformation out there. TRT is not rocket science and most guys make it way more difficult than it needs to be.

    No need to wait for your labs to come back. Your current protocol (200 mg per week) is also a bad idea that you don't want to continue. Just layering in an AI will not get you where you need to be.

    Get yourself some 28G insulin syringes. Then start injecting 0.2 mL (40 mg T-cyp) every 3 days. This is a starting dose that is right for most guys. It averages out to just under 100 mg per week, but in small divided doses that won't put you on a hormonal rollercoaster.

    Since your T will not be spiking nearly as high, there's no need to be on an AI for now. E levels generally follow T levels (since most of your E comes from conversion of T). Your E levels should normalize in about a week and should be within normal ranges.

    Conduct follow up labs in about 6 weeks and that's when you should have your E levels checked. Make #&*$^ sure it's the correct test too. Many docs screw this up and order the standard female test which will more than likely show you are way high. The test was not designed to detect the lower levels of E that guys typically have. Make sure it's the "Sensitive" lab (LC/MS/MS test method). Here's a source and description for the one offered by LabCorp: https://www.discountedlabs.com/estra...itive-lc-ms-ms

    Minimal labs to include: Total T, Free T, SHBG, CBC (Complete Blood Count). Also make sure you get the blood drawn on the 3rd day of you 3-day protocol immediately BRFORE the scheduled next injection.

    After you get your 6 week labs back, you can adjust the dose if necessary. If you are dialed in, you can now consider layering in an AI if it is necessary (only the correct labs can tell you that). If not, adjust the dose and repeat the labs in 6 weeks.

    Once you are dialed into the correct dose, you can consider layering in HCG to keep your testicles functioning. I suggest about from 200 to 400 IU on the same E3D protocol, but you can use a 30G insulin syringe.

    That's it, no need to make it any more complicated than that.

  3. #3
    TRTdrew's Avatar
    TRTdrew is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finding my MOJO View Post
    Hi and thank you for taking the time to read and possibly offer any insight you might have......

    Started TRT with my doctor 2.5 years ago. Never felt anything other than maybe elevated energy one or two days. 200 mg T-Cyp per mo, bumped to 400 per month, no other meds. Nothing. So I stopped going.

    Off for a year and went back 1.5 months ago, looking at it from the perspective of having visited this site. Started with dose of 200mg every 3 weeks. Was told this was a horrible schedule, which bore out the reading I'd done here. So I took matters into my own hands.

    Started taking 200mg per week. I repeat, I have no other meds except the Cyp. Felt better after a month but then something bad started happening, I started retaining water like a sponge. My joints felt full and my lower back ached, I waddle instead of walk. I feel that being so FAT to begin with was mostly to blame. I wasn't working out yet, I'm trying to get my energy level up so that I CAN work out.

    So after more reading it looks like T is turning into estrogen and causing the horrible fluid retention. I'm talking about 20 pounds of it easily.

    I decided to stop and reset for the last 10 days. Pulled all my BW from my doc and there wasn't nearly as much information as is generally requested by folks on here that help a guy out. Taking some water pills and lost 15 pounds in 4 or 5 days. I went in a few days ago and got everything Kel suggested in his sticky on the forum about BW. I'm expecting the results in the next few days, unfortunately I will be out of state as my job requires. I will try to post asap. I work about 100 hours per week on networks and computers, not physical labor, but I have the opportunity to get exercise some days at work.

    So my doctor showed my how to self inject, I'm OK there. I have extra Cyp and Nol ..Va .. Dex to take. Do I need something else to start? I believe that will stop the T from turning completely into estrogen, but I am a total noob at this field, there is so much to learn. I am not going to wait to test every 3 months so that I can get to the levels I need in a year or more! I DO NOT KNOW how much of these 2 I should take to get going. I realize some of that info needed will be in the BW results.

    I am 50, , 5-7330 pounds, very much out of shape and taking on this very seriously. I am ready to make life changes and really I'm just hoping to get some energy to get started, then things will pick up from there. My T came back at 81, down from 89 a few years back. I didn't have a Free T reading or estradiol sensitive measured in prior BW. My doc told me that since my LH and FSH were normal this meant that my testes just weren't producing and TRT was my only real option.

    My goal is to get my weight down, get in good physical shape, and just feel better. Not looking to bench press a truck, just want to get myself together like an adult. Cancer, depression, drinking, and other problems coupled with a lack of motivation led me to where I am today. I am very focused on change.

    Thanks for any advice you have. I will post my results as soon as I can.
    Good luck man. follow the advice you get here and you will be on the right track.

  4. #4
    Finding my MOJO is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    Was this doctor prescribe??? If so, the guy should have his license revoked. I won't get into why this was such a bad protocol. You already have figured that out.

    First of all, unlearn everything you think you know. There is so much misinformation out there. TRT is not rocket science and most guys make it way more difficult than it needs to be.

    No need to wait for your labs to come back. Your current protocol (200 mg per week) is also a bad idea that you don't want to continue. Just layering in an AI will not get you where you need to be.

    Get yourself some 28G insulin syringes. Then start injecting 0.2 mL (40 mg T-cyp) every 3 days. This is a starting dose that is right for most guys. It averages out to just under 100 mg per week, but in small divided doses that won't put you on a hormonal rollercoaster.

    Since your T will not be spiking nearly as high, there's no need to be on an AI for now. E levels generally follow T levels (since most of your E comes from conversion of T). Your E levels should normalize in about a week and should be within normal ranges.

    Conduct follow up labs in about 6 weeks and that's when you should have your E levels checked. Make #&*$^ sure it's the correct test too. Many docs screw this up and order the standard female test which will more than likely show you are way high. The test was not designed to detect the lower levels of E that guys typically have. Make sure it's the "Sensitive" lab (LC/MS/MS test method). Here's a source and description for the one offered by LabCorp: https://www.discountedlabs.com/estra...itive-lc-ms-ms

    Minimal labs to include: Total T, Free T, SHBG, CBC (Complete Blood Count). Also make sure you get the blood drawn on the 3rd day of you 3-day protocol immediately BRFORE the scheduled next injection.

    After you get your 6 week labs back, you can adjust the dose if necessary. If you are dialed in, you can now consider layering in an AI if it is necessary (only the correct labs can tell you that). If not, adjust the dose and repeat the labs in 6 weeks.

    Once you are dialed into the correct dose, you can consider layering in HCG to keep your testicles functioning. I suggest about from 200 to 400 IU on the same E3D protocol, but you can use a 30G insulin syringe.

    That's it, no need to make it any more complicated than that.

    See, thank you, that's really what I thought to begin with, but I have a friend that kept telling me about guys averaging 400mg per week. Pretty sure that is for performance boosting, not TRT, and takes a lot more knowledge than I possess currently.

    The blood test I asked for is what I pulled from Kel's advice and also the anti-aging test for men which states "Estradiol / sensitive" - so I think I got the right one.

    And yes, the original prescription was from my doctor, who has told me that he isn't a specialist and that I may need to see an endo. Like I said earlier, I don't want to wait to get up to speed, my work schedule takes me out of state so often it is very difficult to make and keep doctor appointments.

    So I will take the 40mg every 3 days. Is this still an intra muscular injection, because when you say insulin syringe it makes me think no...

  5. #5
    kelkel's Avatar
    kelkel is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
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    Listen to Y55guy as he's on point like always. So many of these doc's just disgust me with their lack of knowledge and caring. Amazing. Anyway, regarding your last question, no, it's not an IM injection with an insulin pin. It does not have to be. It's just as effective as IM though and a viable option for you:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17143361
    -*- NO SOURCE CHECKS -*-

  6. #6
    Finding my MOJO is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Listen to Y55guy as he's on point like always. So many of these doc's just disgust me with their lack of knowledge and caring. Amazing. Anyway, regarding your last question, no, it's not an IM injection with an insulin pin. It does not have to be. It's just as effective as IM though and a viable option for you:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17143361
    Wow that study was submitted over a decade ago. Makes you wonder about keeping up on current medical practices and all that.........Thanks for the info.

  7. #7
    Youthful55guy is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finding my MOJO View Post
    SI have a friend that kept telling me about guys averaging 400mg per week.

    So I will take the 40mg every 3 days. Is this still an intra muscular injection, because when you say insulin syringe it makes me think no...
    Don't listen to your friend. Also, you may get conflicting (similar) advice here and/or in other forums. You need to be very careful about sorting through the advice and understanding the perspective of who is giving it and their experience with real TRT. A lot of guys here (and in other forums) call their protocols "TRT", but in fact they are just long anabolic steroid cycles in disguise. Calling it TRT somehow makes them feel better about what they are doing. I'm not passing judgement, but it does greatly confuse the issue.

    As for me, I've been doing this for over 6 years and have pretty much followed the protocol I gave you. It's a good one that was prescribed to me from one of the leading authorities in male hormone replacement. It's a solid TRT program.

    Finally, expanding a bit on Kel's comment, it does not matter if the injection is deep IM, shallow IM, or sub-Q. The results are the same. My experience is that with a 28G 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) needle of an insulin syringe, it's shallow IM if you inject into the upper/outer quadriceps muscle.

  8. #8
    kelkel's Avatar
    kelkel is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youthful55guy View Post
    Finally, expanding a bit on Kel's comment, it does not matter if the injection is deep IM, shallow IM, or sub-Q. The results are the same. My experience is that with a 28G 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) needle of an insulin syringe, it's shallow IM if you inject into the upper/outer quadriceps muscle.

    I'll routinely use a 27 ga x .5" pin and inject it anywhere. Doesn't matter if it's all IM, all SQ or a little of both. It absorbs.
    -*- NO SOURCE CHECKS -*-

  9. #9
    TRTdrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finding my MOJO View Post
    So I will take the 40mg every 3 days...
    Keep us posted on how you feel. I would like to hear your progress after about 6 weeks of this.

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