Why ppl say not to use GH before 30?

[moush]

I am just wondering why some people may say not to use GH at 22. I havent grown in a while (height wise). Are there any health risks?

[AnabolicBoy1981]

bones in the face and jaw still grow into your late 20's if you are a man. Therfore, extra GH may cause them overgrowth. For wome, i dunno.

[angelxterminator]

all bones are still growing when you are 20. that is the purpose of taking growth hormone. i am 19 and am going on a 8 month cycle at 4iu ed!

[KGBnine]

best to take advantage of your high level of gh while you're young. When growth plates arent fused yet, there can be a host of problems due to taking gh too young, like metioned earlier about the abnormal bone growth.

[KGBnine]

all bones are still growing when you are 20. that is the purpose of taking growth hormone. i am 19 and am going on a 8 month cycle at 4iu ed!

Are you saying the purpose of take exongenous gh is to make your bones grow more? is this your purpose in taking it?

[moush]

is that the only reasons?

[KGBnine]

im sure there is more, but there is nothing more freakish looking than enlarged facial bones. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

[angelxterminator]

umm actually the condition you refer to is acromegaly, and it is nearly impossible to obtain such a condition at a younger age due to the fact that your growth plates are NOT fused yet. That condition would be more common in more aged people deciding to take growth hormone. Also the dosages needed for such a condition are very high.

When your growth plates are still open gh will promote chrodocyte proliferation, aka growth, as well as its fat burning and other effects. As long as the growth plates are still open, there is not much risk of acromegaly or other conditions. Read and know what your talking about before you misinform somebody!

[angelxterminator]

Are you saying the purpose of take exongenous gh is to make your bones grow more? is this your purpose in taking it?

yes that is precisely why i am taking it. Along with 8 months of letrozole therapy and a 3 month test cycle. The ONLY reason AAS stunt your growth is from higher estrogen levels, NOT testosterone. This is why women are generally shorter in stature than men, higher estrogen at younger ages. A testosterone compound when use with a triazole(Femara/letro) will effectively reduce my estrogen levels to near zero, actually promoting growth!!

Also nolvadex and clomid are SERMS aka synthetic estrogens, and would be one of the bigger factors in causing stunted growth in a youth on AAS!

BTW
i do not recommend in any way that any youth should use AAS or anything else, i'm just giving you my personal knowledge, as i know it to be correct. The decision to take AAS is a risk that must be taken by that person only, and i think nobody should influence them either way, just give them the facts!

[BUYLONGTERM]

Moush, see my PM!

[angelxterminator]

uh oh buylongterm is bashing my ideas in PM to avoid a flame war....

j/k bro...i just think many people read a few posts and know everything about GH. If used properly at a young age it can be to large benefits.

Did i also mention that while i'm on this cycle i will be getting bi-monthly x-rays to check my g. plates, and will be getting complete bloodwork?
aka. thyroid panel, igf-1 levels, etc. etc.

[KGBnine]

unless you are taking it because you are short (under the supervision of a dr.), there is no "proper" way to take it at as young of an age as you. Where are you coming up with this "proper" way seeing as there are no long term studies done? here is a quote from one of your posts on the 19th.:

[B]originally posted by angelxterminator
"ok i know all the bad hype about teens and hgh, i'm only 19 and not even considering it. i have 1 cycle under my belt, and i'm about to do my second. i know i'm probably too young to be doign this, but i've put my bod through worse, so oh well...."

Why the sudden change in mind?

[BUYLONGTERM]

uh oh buylongterm is bashing my ideas in PM to avoid a flame war....

j/k bro...i just think many people read a few posts and know everything about GH. If used properly at a young age it can be to large benefits.

Did i also mention that while i'm on this cycle i will be getting bi-monthly x-rays to check my g. plates, and will be getting complete bloodwork?
aka. thyroid panel, igf-1 levels, etc. etc.

nah......He PM'd me and I already gave him my opion... Well, to me, your definitely doing it the right way if your getting all those tests. But, remember, most guys don't go through that.

[angelxterminator]

the sudden change came after i read about 45 clinical trials of GH induced lateral growth on boys of short stature between the ages of 12-24 years old. Many of them having various disorders ranging from turners syndrome, ISS, GHD, and others. Also many of them were HEALTHY young men who were not happy with their growth rate. All of these boys were compared to a control group in each and every study!

Based on what you just said, aka there have been no long term studies, how would you recommend gh to a 30 year old? Most of the studies have been performed on the patients GH was designed to help, YOUNG people with UNCLOSED growth plates to aid in LONGITUDINAL BONE GROWTH. Its the 30 year olds that the drug was NOT designed for, but everybody just realized what benefits it could reap as your natural GH production begins to lower, which is around 25-30!

The administration of GH at a younger age will be more beneficial, as it will not be replacing GH that is no longer naturally produced, but you are introducing supraphysiological levels to induce rapid growth not normally attainable! That is also the purpose of steroids, but for different goals!

That is what changed my mind. That and a clinical endocrinologist agreed with my approach based on my weight and height, and the results of my epi-x-rays!!!

[angelxterminator]

nah......He PM'd me and I already gave him my opion... Well, to me, your definitely doing it the right way if your getting all those tests. But, remember, most guys don't go through that.

That is very true, most people would NOT go through all that. that is specifically why i said in my post above that i would not recommend what i am doing to anybody at any age. i just give the facts of what i have learned from hours upon hours of reading and talking to people related to the subject.

also the one thing that could be sketchy about doing GH at a borderline age is some of your growth plates could close prematurely, and with high GH levels that could lead to disproportionate growth. So therefore that would lead me to believe there is sort of an age range where gh is not suitable, aka 21-25, as it is borderline! I would do it younger or older than this, depending on what goals you were trying to achieve!

[angelxterminator]

nah......He PM'd me and I already gave him my opion... Well, to me, your definitely doing it the right way if your getting all those tests. But, remember, most guys don't go through that.

btw what is your opinion on my approach with my cycle?

aka do you think i'm stupid for attempting this, etc.?

dont be afraid to hurt my feelings, its not going to sway my judgement on this cycle, your opinion just seems well respected on this board, so i would like to hear it!

[Badgerman]

uh oh buylongterm is bashing my ideas in PM to avoid a flame war....

j/k bro...i just think many people read a few posts and know everything about GH. If used properly at a young age it can be to large benefits.

Did i also mention that while i'm on this cycle i will be getting bi-monthly x-rays to check my g. plates, and will be getting complete bloodwork?
aka. thyroid panel, igf-1 levels, etc. etc.

Interesting......is your baseline GH level normal?? What kind of effect on final height does your doc think 4IU will give??

[angelxterminator]

AngelX, I am not buylongterm, but I will throw my .02 in anyway. For what you are attempting it sounds like you are going about it the right way. People may argue that there are some risks involved, but in the end you have to decide if the risks are reasonable for you. There are risks in anything that we do with AAS, GH, and the like, and all of us that experiment on ourselves are taking some level of risk....the key is to keep the risks/benefit slanted in our favor. It sounds like you have done a good deal of research, so I hope it works out for you. Getting x-rays and bloodwork at the intervals you are planning on should help with the risks and hopefully keep things from going too far wrong.

Please keep us posted as to your progress. What you are proposing to experiment with is interesting to be sure. Who knows, maybe one day you will be considered a pioneer.

well hopefully my results would turn out favorably enough to be a pioneer? I do realize there are risks involved as with anything else, which is why i do not recommend what i am doing. But i have assessed the risks, and have done my best to minimize the risk to favorable result ratio!

[angelxterminator]

Interesting......is your baseline GH level normal?? What kind of effect on final height does your doc think 4IU will give??

Yes my baseline gh level is completely normal for a subject of my age, but then again so is the baseline of those who are 30 and supplementing for positive effects...no? Just the results and goals of higher GH at my age will be different than that of a 30 year old!

As far as final height that is not really predictable until treatment is started, and body changes are monitored. Everybody reacts differently to gh, aas, etc... and as with anybody else, i could have adverse reactions to this proposed cycle and have to stop immediately. Hopefully that will not be the case, but anything can happen! The best i can do is to minimize any risk factors and hope for the best results possible!

The cycle has not been started yet, but in a month or two after some more research the cycle plan will by finalized and reviewed, and treatment will begin! Once the cycle is started i will begin posting any changes/sides/results i do gain!

[KGBnine]

That is very true, most people would NOT go through all that. that is specifically why i said in my post above that i would not recommend what i am doing to anybody at any age. i just give the facts of what i have learned from hours upon hours of reading and talking to people related to the subject.

also the one thing that could be sketchy about doing GH at a borderline age is some of your growth plates could close prematurely, and with high GH levels that could lead to disproportionate growth. So therefore that would lead me to believe there is sort of an age range where gh is not suitable, aka 21-25, as it is borderline! I would do it younger or older than this, depending on what goals you were trying to achieve!

Well with all of the testing you are having done, I dont think there would be safer way to do it. So good luck and tell us how it goes. Hell, i might even change my mind seeing as I am around your age.

[KGBnine]

p.s. AngleX...it looks like you're in for one EXPENSIVE cycle...but you already knew that.

[angelxterminator]

ohhh yea bro, expensive is not the word.... its in the area of $4,500!!!!
the main factor for that price is the gh, and rIGF-1. igf-1 is some expensive **** for local growth(not LR3)...

[angelxterminator]

Well with all of the testing you are having done, I dont think there would be safer way to do it. So good luck and tell us how it goes. Hell, i might even change my mind seeing as I am around your age.

If you were considering it, just do your research!!! its very feasible, as long as you do it safely! If you want some articles on the subject just to inform yourself let me know, i have near a hundred!

[angelxterminator]

BTW MOUSH< sorry man, didn't mean to hijack your thread!

[Badgerman]

If you were considering it, just do your research!!! its very feasible, as long as you do it safely! If you want some articles on the subject just to inform yourself let me know, i have near a hundred!

What did the doc say are the negative sides you could be facing...... and specifically what would cause you to terminate tx?

Please pm me links too!! Thanx

[angelxterminator]

negative sides are the same as the sides experienced by the older gh using population. The only adverse effects i could see that they wouldn't would be self-induced gigantism, or disproportionate growth, but if either had begun to show, use would be discontinued immediately, minimizing if not eliminating additional side effects!

[Angelis]

Bro why so expensive for your source I got a very reliable source and according to what I calculated ... for a 4iu/ED for 8months it would cost $1971.20 for Gentropin and $2016 for Jintropin

Why you paying so expensive?

[angelxterminator]

ohhh yea bro, expensive is not the word.... its in the area of $4,500!!!!
the main factor for that price is the gh, and rIGF-1. igf-1 is some expensive **** for local growth(not LR3)...

ok well lets figure this out....
$2200 for the growth hormone
$900 for the rIGF-1
$200 for the pgf2a
$120 for 24 amps of testoviron(test e)
$400 for an 8-9 month supply of letrozole
$325 for the anavar (500 pills)
$20 for the clomid
$70 for 8 months of slin
$4235...... i was close with my guess!!!

[angelxterminator]

Bro why so expensive for your source I got a very reliable source and according to what I calculated ... for a 4iu/ED for 8months it would cost $1971.20 for Gentropin and $2016 for Jintropin

Why you paying so expensive?

no way your paying $2.10/iu,.... well yea i guess if you were buying the whole 1000 at once. i'm buying in 500iu increments so as to not destroy my wallet all at one time!

[DBarcelo]

umm actually the condition you refer to is acromegaly, and it is nearly impossible to obtain such a condition at a younger age due to the fact that your growth plates are NOT fused yet. That condition would be more common in more aged people deciding to take growth hormone. Also the dosages needed for such a condition are very high.

When your growth plates are still open gh will promote chrodocyte proliferation, aka growth, as well as its fat burning and other effects. As long as the growth plates are still open, there is not much risk of acromegaly or other conditions. Read and know what your talking about before you misinform somebody!

It is true that pediatrics don't tend to get acromegaly, and it is true that it is more likely in the adult population, but the dosages that have been shown to cause such deformaties is not all that high.

[DBarcelo]

Also nolvadex and clomid are SERMS aka synthetic estrogens, and would be one of the bigger factors in causing stunted growth in a youth on AAS!

Both Nolvadex and Clomid are non-steroidal agents. Neither one is a synthetic estrogen.

[DBarcelo]

uh oh buylongterm is bashing my ideas in PM to avoid a flame war....

j/k bro...i just think many people read a few posts and know everything about GH. If used properly at a young age it can be to large benefits.

Did i also mention that while i'm on this cycle i will be getting bi-monthly x-rays to check my g. plates, and will be getting complete bloodwork?
aka. thyroid panel, igf-1 levels, etc. etc.

That's the key thing here. Using GH properly and being supervised properly. Most young people don't do either one and that's why they end up at high risk.

[DBarcelo]

Where are you coming up with this "proper" way seeing as there are no long term studies done?

There have actually been several long term studies done on the pediactric group (21 and younger), but no long term studies done on the adult group.

[angelxterminator]

There have actually been several long term studies done on the pediactric group (21 and younger), but no long term studies done on the adult group.

precisely my point. These studies on pediatric patients are very abundent. Also DBarcelo, i do agree with you that most people would NOT take the time to use GH properly, and then it would NOT be safe for them. But also, i know clomid and Nolva are non-steroidal agents, but they ARE classified as serms, which ARE a particular form of synthetic estrogen. Clomid could take a major part of the responsibility for closing growth plates of people who cycle AAS when they are still growing. The main cause of course would be the estrogen that was aromatized from testosterone, but the use of a triazole would effectively inhibit that!

[DBarcelo]

Clomid is NOT classified as a SERM, at least not medically. It is not a synthetic estrogen, but it does have an estrogenic effect. It also has an anti-estrogenic effect. The estrogenic effect is caused by the initiation of endocrine events, not by any form of synthetic estrogen in it's chemical composition (2-[p-(2-chloro-1,2-diphenylvinyl)phenoxyl]tri-ethylamine citrate). There is also NOTHING to suggest that Clomid plays any role in stunting growth. Clomid does cause an increase in testosterone production in males, but as part of it's anti-estrogenic effect, it competes with estrogen receptor sites (not selective sites, which disqualifies it from being a SERM) and delays the replenishment of intracellular estrogen receptors (which are responsible for aromatizing testosterone into estrogen).

Nolvadex, once again is not any form of synthetic estrogen, (Z)2-[4-(1,2-diphenyl-1-butenyl) phenoxy]-N, N-dimethylethanamine 2-hydroxy-1,2,3-propanetricarboxylate. And Nolvadex is an anti-estrogen. I don't see how an anti-estrogen could possibly be a synthetic estrogen.

Nolvadex is considered to be a SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator), but that has nothing to do with anything being a synthetic estrogen.

Just because two things compete for a binding site does not mean they are the same thing, or even all that simular, it's just the fact that the one binding site is responsible for more than one thing and may be overpowered by one thing over the other.

For example, you can't drink grapefruit juice while taking certain immuno-suppressants, because the grapefruit juice competes with the drug for the same binding site and makes the drug less effective if not useless. The drug and the grapefruit are not simular in any way or made from the same thing, but that binding site has to work on both chemicals.

[angelxterminator]

Clomid is NOT classified as a SERM, at least not medically. It is not a synthetic estrogen, but it does have an estrogenic effect. It also has an anti-estrogenic effect. The estrogenic effect is caused by the initiation of endocrine events, not by any form of synthetic estrogen in it's chemical composition (2-[p-(2-chloro-1,2-diphenylvinyl)phenoxyl]tri-ethylamine citrate). There is also NOTHING to suggest that Clomid plays any role in stunting growth. Clomid does cause an increase in testosterone production in males, but as part of it's anti-estrogenic effect, it competes with estrogen receptor sites (not selective sites, which disqualifies it from being a SERM) and delays the replenishment of intracellular estrogen receptors (which are responsible for aromatizing testosterone into estrogen).

Nolvadex, once again is not any form of synthetic estrogen, (Z)2-[4-(1,2-diphenyl-1-butenyl) phenoxy]-N, N-dimethylethanamine 2-hydroxy-1,2,3-propanetricarboxylate. And Nolvadex is an anti-estrogen. I don't see how an anti-estrogen could possibly be a synthetic estrogen.

Nolvadex is considered to be a SERM (selective estrogen receptor modulator), but that has nothing to do with anything being a synthetic estrogen.

Just because two things compete for a binding site does not mean they are the same thing, or even all that simular, it's just the fact that the one binding site is responsible for more than one thing and may be overpowered by one thing over the other.

For example, you can't drink grapefruit juice while taking certain immuno-suppressants, because the grapefruit juice competes with the drug for the same binding site and makes the drug less effective if not useless. The drug and the grapefruit are not simular in any way or made from the same thing, but that binding site has to work on both chemicals.

EHHHHH EMMM........

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) Compounds that bind with estrogen receptors and exhibit estrogen action in some tissues and anti-estrogen action in other tissues. The ideal SERM would deliver all the benefits of estrogen without the adverse effects. ex: Clomiphene Citrate (Marketed as Clomid or Serophene). Tamoxifen (Marketed as Nolvadex).

Aromatise Inhibitor (AI) Aromatase inhibitors exhibit a very different mechanism of action than SERM’s. Aromatase inhibitors prevent the conversion of androgens into estrogen in fat, muscle, breast, and brain. ex: Anastrazole (brand name Arimidex). FEMARA (letrozole tablets).

NOTE: Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes.

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary.

by William Llewellyn

...........

[angelxterminator]

AND.... any chemical that has estrogenic acitivty CAN work to slow or prematurely close growth plates!

Clomiphene
Synthetic Estrogen
Oral
Clomid is a very weak, synthetic
estrogen and thus belongs to the group
of sex hormones. In school of medicine
Clomid is normally used to trigger
ovulation. Clomid also has a strong
influence on the
hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis.
It stimulates the hypophysis to release
more gonadotropin so that a faster and
higher release of FSH (Follicle
Stimulating Hormone) and LH
(Luteinizing Hormone) occurs. This
results in an elevated endogenous
testosterone level. Clomid is especially
effective when the body’s own
testosterone production, due to
anabolic/androgenic steroids, is
suppressed. In most cases Clomid can
normalize the testosterone level and
the spermatogenesis within 10-14 days.
For this reason Clomid is primarily
taken after steroids are discontinued.
Even greater results can be acheived by
combining Clomid with HCG.
Paradoxically, although Clomid is a
synthetic estrogen it also works as an
anti-estrogen. The reason is that
Clomid has only a very low estrogenic
effect and thus the stronger estrogens
which, for example, form during the
aromatization of steroids, are blocked
at the receptors.

[DBarcelo]

EHHHHH EMMM........

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) Compounds that bind with estrogen receptors and exhibit estrogen action in some tissues and anti-estrogen action in other tissues. The ideal SERM would deliver all the benefits of estrogen without the adverse effects. ex: Clomiphene Citrate (Marketed as Clomid or Serophene). Tamoxifen (Marketed as Nolvadex).

A SERM is a selective estrogen receptor modulator, yes. They do compete with estrogen at the receptors. But they do not have to exhibit any estrogenic action (and normally don't) but they can CAUSE an estrogenic action in women. In men, there is no estrogenic action, it is an anti-estrogen only.

[DBarcelo]

NOTE: Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes.

Clomid is triethylamine citrate and Nolvadex is the trans-isomer of a triphenylethylene deritive, they do NOT belong to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds, only Nolvadex has a triphenylethylene derivitive and that's only a trans-isomer of the derivitive.

I already provided both chemical structures and you can see that they are NOT structurally related in any way.

As I said before, only one is a SERM, the other isn't. And that's the classification from the PDR.

Anti-estrogens do not act as actual estrogens and SERMs do not act as actual estrogens. Only in women does Clomid cause an increase in estrogen, in men it increases testosterone, but not directly. Estrogen is increased very indirectly. It's not like taking synthetic testosterone. If a woman takes a synthetic testosterone, they have testosterone in their body. If a man takes a synthetic estrogen, they end up with estrogen in their body. Clomid is in no way a synthetic estrogen. I have no idea where you get your information from, but you are mis-informed and you should find a new source of information.

Neither one of them works by opposing any negative feedback of estrogens in the hypothalymus.

[DBarcelo]

AND.... any chemical that has estrogenic acitivty CAN work to slow or prematurely close growth plates!

Clomiphene
Synthetic Estrogen
Oral
Clomid is a very weak, synthetic
estrogen and thus belongs to the group
of sex hormones. In school of medicine
Clomid is normally used to trigger
ovulation. Clomid also has a strong
influence on the
hypothalamohypophysial testicular axis.
It stimulates the hypophysis to release
more gonadotropin so that a faster and
higher release of FSH (Follicle
Stimulating Hormone) and LH
(Luteinizing Hormone) occurs. This
results in an elevated endogenous
testosterone level. Clomid is especially
effective when the body’s own
testosterone production, due to
anabolic/androgenic steroids, is
suppressed. In most cases Clomid can
normalize the testosterone level and
the spermatogenesis within 10-14 days.
For this reason Clomid is primarily
taken after steroids are discontinued.
Even greater results can be acheived by
combining Clomid with HCG.
Paradoxically, although Clomid is a
synthetic estrogen it also works as an
anti-estrogen. The reason is that
Clomid has only a very low estrogenic
effect and thus the stronger estrogens
which, for example, form during the
aromatization of steroids, are blocked
at the receptors.

There is a synthetic estrogen on the market and it's given to women and girls as an IV drip. There is no adverse reaction to estrogen treatment related to premature growth plate closure.

Clomid is not listed as a sex hormone, is not considered a sex hormone and can't be confused with a sex hormone.

Clomid is used for non-ovulatory women. I already explained how it works in women to increase estrogen and it works the same way to increase testosterone.