192AA - anti-HGH bodies nonsense?!

hey was reading about the side-effects of HGH and came along the following:

191AA (Humatrope):
As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. During the first 6 months of Humatrope therapy in 314 naive patients, only 1.6% developed specific antibodies to Humatrope (binding capacity ≥0.02 mg/L). None had antibody concentrations which exceeded 2 mg/L. Throughout 8 years of this same study, two patients (0.6%) had binding capacity >2 mg/L. Neither patient demonstrated a decrease in growth velocity at or near the time of increased antibody production. It has been reported that growth attenuation from pituitary-derived growth hormone may occur when antibody concentrations are
>1.5 mg/L.

192AA (Protropin):
As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. Growth hormone antibody binding capacities below 2 mg/L have not been associated with growth attenuation. In some cases when binding capacity exceeds 2 mg/L, growth attenuation has been observed. In clinical studies and postmarketing experience of patients treated with 192 amino acid for injection, approximately 0.4 percent of patients screened for antibody production developed antibodies with binding capacities > 2 mg/L at six months. Out of approximately 26,000 patients who have been treated with 192 amino acid residues , 5 (=0.02%)patients have had growth deceleration associated with binding capacities > 2 mg/L. If growth deceleration is observed that is not attributable to another cause, the patient should be tested for antibodies to growth hormone. Although no evidence exists to indicate that the methionine on the N-terminus of 192 amino acid residues causes antibodies to growth hormone, the physician should consider transferring the patient to somatropin (rDNA origin) for injection, if a patient has antibody binding capacity > 2 mg/L, and has exhibited growth attenuation.


Most 192AA is reconstituted with bac. water which includes BA and most 191AA with sterile water. Some people are sensitive to the benzyl alcohol and develop red welts from it. Its not the 192AA.

i was just trying to find some more info on this...great minds think a like:lol:

thanks dude

Thanks fred,always with great information.....

nice read fred :D

-rodge

I thought the chance were low, but not that low, that's good news, for a lot of people. But for me I still won't take the chance, just because with my luck I'd be in the 0.4%.

I didn't know people were suspending 192aa HGH with BA, does it have to be suspended with BA? Bro can you post the source of this info, this is going to make a lot of people very happy :wg:

JohnnyB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Bro can you post the source of this info, this is going to make a lot of people very happy

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Happy isnt the word. I can think of a few that will use this as ammunition when comments arise on 191 .vs. 192.

although i have been on blue tops for a couple of months without complaints i always get some mixed feelings whenever i read that it could be 192aa. so this is good news. i just had my bloodwork done and can't wait to see the results of my igf-1 levels :D if they are good or even better then on jin i'm never gonna switch again.

-rodge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I didn't know people were suspending 192aa HGH with BA, does it have to be suspended with BA? Bro can you post the source of this info, this is going to make a lot of people very happy :wg:

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hey yeah my mistake, i meant bac.water which had BA in it...
ill post the source later this day..its from humatrope and protropin site..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rodge nl.

although i have been on blue tops for a couple of months without complaints i always get some mixed feelings whenever i read that it could be 192aa. so this is good news. i just had my bloodwork done and can't wait to see the results of my igf-1 levels :D if they are good or even better then on jin i'm never gonna switch again.

-rodge

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thats great..keep us updated rodge...

found some more articles:


-Department of Analytical Chemistry, Genentech Inc., South San Francisco, CA 94080, USA. [email protected]

The clinical development of methionyl human growth hormone, with particular emphasis on immunogenicity and the effects of antibody development, are summarized. In an animal model in rhesus monkeys, the immunogenicity of dinical preparations was reduced by the inclusion of additional purification steps in the manufacturing process. The immunogenic response in patients was also decreased by these improvements. No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%). The data suggest that the immunogenicity was not due to the N-terminal methionine or E. coli protein impurities: rather it was probably caused by small amounts of growth hormone with subtle structural alterations whose nature remains unknown.

PMID: 12434920 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-The use of an animal immunogenicity model in the development of Protropin somatrem (methionyl human growth hormone).

Jones AJ.

Department of Analytical Chemistry, Genentech Inc., South San Francisco, CA 94080, USA. [email protected]

The clinical development of methionyl human growth hormone, with particular emphasis on immunogenicity and the effects of antibody development, are summarized. In an animal model in rhesus monkeys, the immunogenicity of dinical preparations was reduced by the inclusion of additional purification steps in the manufacturing process. The immunogenic response in patients was also decreased by these improvements. No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%). The data suggest that the immunogenicity was not due to the N-terminal methionine or E. coli protein impurities: rather it was probably caused by small amounts of growth hormone with subtle structural alterations whose nature remains unknown.

-The molecular basis of recombinant DNA technology is described, and the principles of genetically engineered proteins developed. The production of hGH by such methods utilizes a strain of Escherichia coli as host and a vector plasmid containing the appropriate information. Fermentation and purification of the hGH produced gives a preparation of high purity, containing only 1-2 ppm of E. coli polypeptide (ECP). This somatrem (Somatonorm) is identical to pituitary hGH except for an additional methionine residue at the N-terminal. Monoclonal antibodies fail to distinguish between pituitary hGH and somatrem. Preclinical studies of a variety of pharmacological and toxicological parameters indicate that the two hGH preparations have identical biological effects; no toxicological or mutagenic effects of somatrem have been detected

Monoclonal antibodies to human growth hormone can distinguish between pituitary and genetically engineered forms.

Aston R, Cooper L, Holder A, Ivanyi J, Preece M.

Monoclonal antibodies (MABs) prepared against human pituitary growth hormone (hGH) have been compared for their binding to pituitary-derived and genetically engineered methionyl growth hormone (met-hGH). The antibodies bind to four non-overlapping epitopes of which two are completely shared with human choronic somatomammotropin (hCS). The determinant defined by MAB NA27 was expressed on met-hGH to a lesser degree than on hGH of pituitary origin. However, another antibody, QA68, which binds to a determinant closely related to NA27, failed to discriminate between hGH and met-hGH. A further two MABs (EB1 and NA71) were similarly ineffective in distinguishing between the two forms of the hormone. The determinant recognized by antibody EB2 was equally represented on hGH and met-hGH when assessed by a liquid-phase radioimmunoassay: however, measurement of the binding in a solid-phase assay resulted in a two-four-fold lower binding to met-hGH. Bioactivity assessed by both an in vitro cell proliferation assay and an in vivo cartilage sulphation bioassay failed to distinguish between the two hormones. It is therefore concluded that the NH2-terminal methionine on bacterially derived growth hormone results in altered antigenicity of the hormone without any measurable effect on bioactivity
Thus the bioactivity of met-hgh is the same as HGH

Most studies are performed on people with GHD, they allready have a very high anti-body level to HGH...Another problem is that most antibodies that were measured in those studies is based on antibodies to Escherichia coli proteins and not the antibodies to met-HGH..

Great stuff, as always, Fred. I think the 191 vs. 192 debate is a bit academic as well. However, we do know the body is a 191aa GH producer, and I think that's why so many want to stick to the more natural amino acid sequence.

However, if one doesn't have an adverse reaction to 192aa, there's no reason to avoid it. Heck, I think many of the red welts people get are the result of manufacturing anomalies which may be wholly unrelated to the rDna sequence. There are numerous posts where people who are using 191aa report welts and those using 192aa get no reaction.

So I guess it's about finding a brand that works for you and sticking with it.

Anyway, thanks for the education. This is valuable info that should take some of the focus off of 191 vs. 192 and place it back on actual product quality, where it may belong.

Kick ass article, bro - thanks for posting. And I've said it before, but my belief was that the issue was never 191aa v. 192aa, but rather the purities of the products that causes adverse reactions and reduced effectiveness.

As far as 191 vs 192 and the red welts. Both my friend and i started ansomone at the same time (as you know there is a debate on which sequence ansomone is) and he got red welts and i didnt. After telling me he used all 2ml (thats what comes with a 4iu vial) of water for 4iu i said thats to much water, so he went to 1ml. No red welts after that. I think the water is a good point as to where the welts come from.

I've read where people, just switched to using BW to suspend the 192aa HGH and the red welts went away. But sticking to the same sequence as the body makes, is what I'd do.

But again this is some good new to lots of people.

JohnnyB

I have to agree - my personal choice would always be 191aa. I have had success with both however. And I am NOT a fan of the red welts I got with 60% of my 192aa injections (KF bluetop). This was always with bacteriostatic water. This stuff is reputed to be about 85-87% pure - and that's my opinion as to the cause of the welts. Some people react much better than others - my wife's welts were about the size of a silver dollar. Mine were small, and I got nothing about 40% of the time.

I'm in the process of buy the blue tops for myself and I was wondering what kind of negative reaction do you get from the 192aa? Like what sides to look out for beside red welts at injection site? And is there any permant or harsh negative sides to worry about?

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Originally Posted by RedBaron

The claim above is that it is an allergy to bacteriostatic water that triggers this immune response. That simply can't be the case. I have talked with countless people who have tried 192aa (self included), who have ceased their cycle with 192aa, bought 191aa and with the very same vial of BW that was used on the 192aa, reconstituted with the very same amount per IU of HGH, not had ANY reaction whatsoever. If it was BW that was the problem, the exact same problem would exist irrespective of the brand of HGH used, and whether it was 191aa or 192aa.

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so could it be that some 192AA powder contains more preservatives like m-Cresol then 191AA...genotropin (191aa) contains in some packages also m-Cresol as preservative, some people are very sensitive to these preservatives..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rodge nl.

although i have been on blue tops for a couple of months without complaints i always get some mixed feelings whenever i read that it could be 192aa. so this is good news. i just had my bloodwork done and can't wait to see the results of my igf-1 levels :D if they are good or even better then on jin i'm never gonna switch again.

-rodge

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Bumping for updates Rodge.. just started my bluetops yesterday so I'm curious of your results.

me too...

Excellent thread! Fred you always have interesting studies. Do you have a
date on the study you referenced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBdmfkr

Bumping for updates Rodge.. just started my bluetops yesterday so I'm curious of your results.

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igf-1 level came back only slightly lower then on jino's but i stopped them anyway and returned to jino's as i got some nasty rashes. did'nt think it was the blue tops untill some other complained about it either. when i stopped them it was gone in a few days. back on jino's for me.

-rodge

nice that the igf were also elevated with the blue tops, too bad you get those rashes...
Just a really good way to check ur HGH...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ufa

Excellent thread! Fred you always have interesting studies. Do you have a
date on the study you referenced.

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hey thats a good one...maybe its in the same time-frame when Protropin came out, so they want to publish everything positive about 192aa....gonna search those dates for ya...

1ste article: 2002
2nd article: 1986
3th article: 1985

damn those are quite oldies...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fred9

hey was reading about the side-effects of HGH and came along the following:

191AA (Humatrope):
As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. During the first 6 months of Humatrope therapy in 314 naive patients, only 1.6% developed specific antibodies to Humatrope (binding capacity ≥0.02 mg/L). None had antibody concentrations which exceeded 2 mg/L. Throughout 8 years of this same study, two patients (0.6%) had binding capacity >2 mg/L. Neither patient demonstrated a decrease in growth velocity at or near the time of increased antibody production. It has been reported that growth attenuation from pituitary-derived growth hormone may occur when antibody concentrations are
>1.5 mg/L.

192AA (Protropin):
As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. Growth hormone antibody binding capacities below 2 mg/L have not been associated with growth attenuation. In some cases when binding capacity exceeds 2 mg/L, growth attenuation has been observed. In clinical studies and postmarketing experience of patients treated with 192 amino acid for injection, approximately 0.4 percent of patients screened for antibody production developed antibodies with binding capacities > 2 mg/L at six months. Out of approximately 26,000 patients who have been treated with 192 amino acid residues , 5 (=0.02%)patients have had growth deceleration associated with binding capacities > 2 mg/L. If growth deceleration is observed that is not attributable to another cause, the patient should be tested for antibodies to growth hormone. Although no evidence exists to indicate that the methionine on the N-terminus of 192 amino acid residues causes antibodies to growth hormone, the physician should consider transferring the patient to somatropin (rDNA origin) for injection, if a patient has antibody binding capacity > 2 mg/L, and has exhibited growth attenuation.


Most 192AA is reconstituted with bac. water which includes BA and most 191AA with sterile water. Some people are sensitive to the benzyl alcohol and develop red welts from it. Its not the 192AA.

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I was reading that its not the HGH that causes the welts, instead it was the water you mix with it. Some people have a reaction to the benzyl alcohol. Try shooting 4ius of just the water and see what happens. I'm interested to see what happens.

This thread is over 7 years old......