insulin

**the swole patrol** · 07-12-2007, 12:06 AM

anybody here ever takin insulin ? they said it was more dangerous but worth the it if u didnt die from insulin shock. im not takin it. but just wondrin

**ottomaddox** · 07-12-2007, 12:18 AM

Don't even think about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***perfectbeast2001*** · 07-12-2007, 12:25 AM

Insulin is very safe if used in a controlled and responsible manner. However just one slip up with it can mean serious even life threatening consequences. If you are planning on using then research thew hell out of it first.

**Ejuicer** · 07-12-2007, 06:17 AM

I personally like insulin a lot and use it in most of my bulkers. As mentioned you better know exactly what you're doing with it before considering using it.

**InsaneInTheMembrane** · 07-12-2007, 10:28 AM

A pro BB friend of mine did insulin on a regular basis with proper diligence and care for years...until one day when he suffered a shock and had to go to the ICU and almost died just because he forgot to drink his PWO for a few minutes as a phone came and was embroiled in a conversation. It only takes ONE slip no matter how careful you are...that was an eye opener for me....I wouldn't even consider it unless I have tried every other compound on this sweet earth to gain mass and my body refused to grow any more (and we all know that aint gonna happen)...IMHO, just not worth the risk

**lightwaytbaby** · 07-12-2007, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by the swole patrol

anybody here ever takin insulin? they said it was more dangerous but worth the it if u didnt die from insulin shock. im not takin it. but just wondrin

look in the insulin /gh/igf forum for all your answers...

**Kratos** · 07-12-2007, 02:51 PM

omfg, don't you dare touch insulin

107 lb d-bol eater for those who don't know

**pigrond** · 07-12-2007, 03:18 PM

insulin will make you diabetic ,it can kill you ,if you have to ask a single question about its use your not ready for it .it will kill you,you need to stay away from it

**pigrond** · 07-12-2007, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

omfg, don't you dare touch insulin

107 lb d-bol eater for those who don't know

107 lbs man you aint got any buisness touching anything other than mass qauntities of food until you gain some weight your just wasting drugs

***perfectbeast2001*** · 07-12-2007, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by pigrond

insulin will make you diabetic ,it can kill you ,if you have to ask a single question about its use your not ready for it .it will kill you,you need to stay away from it

Agree apart from I would change to "insulin in theory might make you diabetic"

**Titleist** · 07-12-2007, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

omfg, don't you dare touch insulin

107 lb d-bol eater for those who don't know

Wow. Yeah bro, insulin should be the last thing on your mind.

**Gear** · 07-12-2007, 05:20 PM

Insulin will help shuttle nutrients into cells at a faster rate. This means it's very beneficial PWO for recovery purposes, but don't expcet any major weight or strength gains.

As mentioned above, insulin is in a different category to everything else. Ensure you are educated about it before use.

-Gear

**jerseyboy** · 07-13-2007, 08:24 PM

19 years old, 139 lbs? You've got to be kidding.

**agnisz** · 07-22-2007, 02:33 AM

I would strongly disagree with this sentence "insulin will make you diabetic". Only maybe if you use insulin on daily basis for 20+ years.

**jerseyboy** · 07-22-2007, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by agnisz

I would strongly disagree with this sentence "insulin will make you diabetic". Only maybe if you use insulin on daily basis for 20+ years.

What's your experience with insulin ?

**agnisz** · 07-22-2007, 09:27 AM

I do treat my patients with insulin (I'm endocrinologist). Unfortunately I can't say much about insulin from BB prospective. What I know for sure is that it's not that easy to kill your beta cells in pancreas by injecting insulin.

**Gear** · 07-22-2007, 04:39 PM

Many bodybuilders (which I won't name in the open) who are at the professional and ameture level have turned diabetic. Why? Well, if you ask me I can only think of one thing. On the other hand though, there has been no studies which shows insulin use for sport enhancing purposes can lead to user having this problem down the track. So upon this, you can make up your own mind.

-Gear

**agnisz** · 07-23-2007, 12:31 AM

The reason why many bodybuilders have turned diabetic most likely is not related to insulin use. As we know steroids and GH both are contrinsular, which increase the risk of insulin resistance eventually followed by development of diabetes. There are also some good studies as evidence of this fact showing impaired glucose tolerance in powerlifters taking steroids. And there is nothing to do with insulin use. Even more, insulin might even prevent this. For instance, currently I participate in ongoing clinical trial with the insulin use in non-diabetic subjects who are at high risk of diabetes (for example bb). The trial involves more than 5000 subjects worldwide and will be conducted for 5 years. The aim is to demonstrate that insulin prevents diabetes development in high risk subjects.

Once again - I would strongly disagree with this sentence "insulin will make you diabetic".

**NotSmall** · 07-23-2007, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by agnisz

The reason why many bodybuilders have turned diabetic most likely is not related to insulin use. As we know steroids and GH both are contrinsular, which increase the risk of insulin resistance eventually followed by development of diabetes. There are also some good studies as evidence of this fact showing impaired glucose tolerance in powerlifters taking steroids. And there is nothing to do with insulin use. Even more, insulin might even prevent this. For instance, currently I participate in ongoing clinical trial with the insulin use in non-diabetic subjects who are at high risk of diabetes (for example bb). The trial involves more than 5000 subjects worldwide and will be conducted for 5 years. The aim is to demonstrate that insulin prevents diabetes development in high risk subjects.

Once again - I would strongly disagree with this sentence "insulin will make you diabetic".

I have heard a convincing argument for this, along the lines of exogenous insulin giving the pancreas a break and alleviating the stress on it.

**jcdonny** · 07-23-2007, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Gear

Many bodybuilders (which I won't name in the open) who are at the professional and ameture level have turned diabetic. Why? Well, if you ask me I can only think of one thing. On the other hand though, there has been no studies which shows insulin use for sport enhancing purposes can lead to user having this problem down the track. So upon this, you can make up your own mind.

-Gear

Do you not think it might be the gh, not the insulin that had made them diabetic, i would think thats more of a possibility?

**Gear** · 07-23-2007, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by jcdonny

Do you not think it might be the gh, not the insulin that had made them diabetic, i would think thats more of a possibility?

Well, since you said that, then we may as well add IGF to the list as well because IGF effects BG levels too. But I only mentioned insulin as insulin effects your BG levels more than anything else IMO. I suppose we could say it could be a number of different compounds.

-Gear

**jerseyboy** · 07-23-2007, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by agnisz

I do treat my patients with insulin (I'm endocrinologist). Unfortunately I can't say much about insulin from BB prospective. What I know for sure is that it's not that easy to kill your beta cells in pancreas by injecting insulin.

Ok great. Being an insulin user myself, it's nice to get some information from someone in the field. Good discussion.

**agnisz** · 07-24-2007, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Gear

Well, since you said that, then we may as well add IGF to the list as well because IGF effects BG levels too. But I only mentioned insulin as insulin effects your BG levels more than anything else IMO. I suppose we could say it could be a number of different compounds.

-Gear

IGF is insulin sensitizer, so its action is oposite to GH, which increases insulin resistance. Both - IGF and insulin itself are out of the list.
Steroids and GH are most likely to make BB diabetic.

**Gear** · 07-24-2007, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by agnisz

IGF is insulin sensitizer, so its action is oposite to GH, which increases insulin resistance. Both - IGF and insulin itself are out of the list.
Steroids and GH are most likely to make BB diabetic.

I was refering to any compounds that effect BG levels.

Originally Posted by agnisz

Both - IGF and insulin itself are out of the list.

This is something I have been trying to rsearch, but it's hard without clinical studies.

-Gear

**agnisz** · 07-24-2007, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Gear

I was refering to any compounds that effect BG levels.

This is something I have been trying to rsearch, but it's hard without clinical studies.

-Gear

You don't need clinical studies for things that are pretty nicely proved already in basic research. Let me ask you the question: why would you even think that insulin might make someone diabetic? What are underlying mechanisms according to your theory? Negative feedback system? Something similar as in case of steroid use , when your testicles might decrease endogenous testosterone production as a result of exogenous steroid use? If you believe that case of insulin use might be the same, you are totally wrong and should go back to learn more about human physiology. That's correct - exogenous steroids acts as negative feedback and suppresses endogenous steroid production. However, in case of insulin negative feedback in NOT the insulin level, but the GLUCOSE level. If the glucose level is high, insulin production rises and vice reverse! By injecting insulin you DO NOT suppress endogenous insulin production. If you inject too much you get hypoglycemia. If insulin production would be regulated by endogenous insulin injections you shouldn't worry about getting shock! Even more, it has been demonstrated in many clinical studies, that insulin injections preserve beta cells and restore exogenous insulin production.

As far as for IGF - there are many studies where IGF is used to treat hyperglycemia in diabetic patients. I wouldn't recommend using IGF together with insulin for two reasons:
1) the risk of hypoglycemia is increased
2) insulin injections will decrease level of free IGF as a result IGF use will be less effective

**Gear** · 07-24-2007, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by agnisz

You don't need clinical studies for things that are pretty nicely proved already in basic research. Let me ask you the question: why would you even think that insulin might make someone diabetic? What are underlying mechanisms according to your theory? Negative feedback system? Something similar as in case of steroid use , when your testicles might decrease endogenous testosterone production as a result of exogenous steroid use? If you believe that case of insulin use might be the same, you are totally wrong and should go back to learn more about human physiology. That's correct - exogenous steroids acts as negative feedback and suppresses endogenous steroid production. However, in case of insulin negative feedback in NOT the insulin level, but the GLUCOSE level. If the glucose level is high, insulin production rises and vice reverse! By injecting insulin you DO NOT suppress endogenous insulin production. If you inject too much you get hypoglycemia. If insulin production would be regulated by endogenous insulin injections you shouldn't worry about getting shock! Even more, it has been demonstrated in many clinical studies, that insulin injections preserve beta cells and restore exogenous insulin production.

As far as for IGF - there are many studies where IGF is used to treat hyperglycemia in diabetic patients. I wouldn't recommend using IGF together with insulin for two reasons:
1) the risk of hypoglycemia is increased
2) insulin injections will decrease level of free IGF as a result IGF use will be less effective

If you go back to post #17 quoted by me, and re-read what I said, you will relise that I never said I 100% believe excess insulin use for sport enhancing purposes can make one turn diabatic. This means there is no need to argue with me, I am not taking sides. Actually, if you re-read the second last sentence in post #17, you might agree with me instead of immidietly causing an argument.

You said "if you inject too much you get hypoglycemia". Hypo does not occur depending on how much insulin you injected. It arrives depending upon how much certain nutrients you have in your body. If you have enough nutrients in your body to fight hypo, you can inject as much insulin as you want and hypoglycemia will not occur. So, injectig insulin certinly does have a lot to do with hypo, but it isn't the reason behind why hypo occurs.

I have come across many posts such as yours that sound very professional and educative, and even though I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, when it comes to issues such as this, I'm very factual. For all I know you could be right, but I suppose I just feel more confident when I see things on paper. Another reason why I like to see paperwork is because I have come across many posts such as yours which sound very convincing but end up being wrong. There are quite a few posts just like yours that get fairly into detail which will go against what you're saying, so what do you believe? You believe what you know, and the only thing you can 100% believe is paperwork once it has been put to the test.

Thanx for your input.

-Gear

**agnisz** · 07-25-2007, 12:37 AM

Clinical studies are conducted in order to prove theory. You DON'T have ANY theory about mechanisms how the insulin can make someone diabetic, so there is NO need for such studies. Healthy thinking poeple don't need everything writen on paper. They use their brains to make logical conclusions from existing knowledges. If I believe that as a result of isnulin use poeple get additional kidney, does it mean that scientists now have to make the study to prove that I am wrong? Surely, no. Besides, it wouldn't be right for me to cultivate such theory in different threads.

**Gear** · 07-25-2007, 02:10 AM

I don't need a theory, I am saying bbers have turned diabetic in the past. Could this be due to excess insulin use? Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps it's a mixture of more than one compound that is responsible for these individuals turning diabetic. Perhaps it's something totally different, perhaps not. Perhaps it was a natural cause. Who knows, nobody knows because there are no studies shown this is possible. So, I don't need a theory, I am going by what it looks like to me, but hey I could be wrong.

As for not needing it on paper, everything is needed on paper, even the most simple understanding things in the world are on paper, that is the only way it becomes a fact. If it's not on paper, it's not a fact. If it's not a fact, then it could be wrong. You don't have any facts even if you are right.

As for the additional kidney case, lol.. that's just a silly example IMO. You can't compare something like that to what we are talking about. The case we are on is a little bit more complicated than the "extra kidney case" lol. So unless we are all Einstein's here, a bit of evidence would be nice. Afterall, if the answer to this issue was so easy to understand this topic would not be discussed so often by so many members on so many different boards.

-Gear

**agnisz** · 07-25-2007, 03:20 AM

Once again, it has been proved and it is ON PAPER that steroid and GH use is related to increased risk of diabetes. That's the reason why BB may eventually turn diabetic. There is nothing to do with insulin . Insulin can prevent development of diabetes in high risk patients. That's proved and it's ON THE PAPER. This evidence is sufficiant to make healthy conclusion that insulin use can not be cause fordiabetes. It's a myth.
Additional kidney case - silly example? Actually I do have one patient who is on insulin and who has 3 kidneys, which was revealed after 2 years being on insulin. Surely, I didn't think even a minute that it might be caused by insulin use, even though there is no studies that clearly says that insulin doesn't cause grow of additional kidney. And it's NOT on the PAPER. I didn't think about this possibility, because I am able to make conclusions from existing knowledge. Saying that, if someone out there is aware that insulin use might cause diabetes, he should also be aware of getting third kidney.