GH antibodies

[VTliftVT]

I have been reading more and more about how the impurities of generic (blue top in my case) GH can cause the bodies to produce antibodies and fight its natural GH eventually....maybe i am not understanding this correctly.

either way, what are the chances of this occuring? has it been proven to occur? is this something that should make me toss the blues i have (just kidding )?

im currently running 10iu PWO (3 times /week) and 4iu on non workout days.

thoughts?

thanks,

VT

[plzr8]

are you noticing any red lumps at injection site? this was known to happen with a few batches of blues in the past....

[Gear]

It is HGH with a 192 amino acid sequence that tends to carry this issue.

-Gear

[VTliftVT]

no, none at all. i am a member of a few other boards and someone had posted about how your body can produce anti-bodies due to the lower grade GH because of its impurities (apparently doesn't happen to pharm grade). this was said to occur after extended use of generics like blue tops. i had never really heard of it but he was adament that the body can and will produce those anti-bodies which will eventually turn to your natural GH production and wreak havoc.

[VTliftVT]

gear, thats what i was looking for, thanks!

[BigLittleTim]

It is HGH with a 192 amino acid sequence that tends to carry this issue.

-Gear

Sight-unseen, how can you avoid getting HGH with a 192 amino acid sequence? Are there certain brands or manufacturers you should just say: "If it's that, I don't want it."?

-BLTim

[Gear]

Sight-unseen, how can you avoid getting HGH with a 192 amino acid sequence? Are there certain brands or manufacturers you should just say: "If it's that, I don't want it."?

-BLTim

All FDA approved HGH brands (European/American brands) are 191aa. This is the good/expensive stuff. Apart from Jintropin, I don't believe the Chinese brands are 191aa, but that's just what I think. Some really like the Chinese stuff and some do not. Everyone likes the Euro/American stuff and I am sure there is a reason for that. The European/American stuff is certainly on a different level to the Chinese stuff.

-Gear

[VTliftVT]

so would blue tops then be considered 192aa?

[Gear]

so would blue tops then be considered 192aa?

All sources who provide Chinese HGH brands claim their HGH is 191aa, but of course they are going to tell you that because they know everyone steers away from 192aa HGH. I wouldn't bother asking for proof on paper either as these lab reports can be faked quite easily. I can't 100% confirm the blues are 192aa, but I ceratinly have good enough reason to believe they are.

-Gear

[VTliftVT]

I have been taking my blue tops for a couple of months now with no redness, itching, swelling etc. Do you think I should still worry about the anti-body situation due to it beint 192 or whats your opinion on that?

[Gear]

I have been taking my blue tops for a couple of months now with no redness, itching, swelling etc. Do you think I should still worry about the anti-body situation due to it beint 192 or whats your opinion on that?

Don't be 100% about them being 192aa, even I am not a 100% about that. But as I said, I do have good enough reason to believe that they are 192aa and I would be very surprised if I was wrong, but without a lab report confirming excatly what it is we can only assume/guess.

There is actually a certain amount of people who will react quite well to 192aa HGH and will not develop antibodies, so if you have been using the blues with success I say keep on using them.

-Gear

[Gear]

Have you ever come across anyone having the "welts" issue when using Saizen or any other pharmaceutical grade HGH? I certainly have not, but how many have this issue with Chinese HGH brands? Quite a few, and I am sure you'll agree. So this is what I mean by saying American/European brands are on a totally different level to Chinese brands.

-Gear

[PT]

i have used about 1000ius of kexing hgh in the past which is 192 and i had great results. it all depends on the person. as for chineese hgh, gensci claims to be the only asian supplier of 191 hgh but im not sure about that. i personally belive that blue tops are 192 but i have yet to see any proof.

[VTliftVT]

I completely agree with what you are saying. Thanks for all of the info. I seem to be responding well with them as of right now. No welts or anything and I wake up with swollen hands/ankles quite and many of the sides known for GH use such as sore wrists etc. I guess I will continue use.

Sorry to keep bugging you but are there any signs or symptoms that one should be aware of as far as developing anti-bodies?

[Gear]

GenSci are the only company in China who have the license to produce HGH with a 191 amino acid sequence. If there is anyone else who has this license then let's see it.

I really hope that I am wrong about the blues (and the rest of the Chinese HGH brands) being 192aa for mine and everyone elses sake, but when you do your research and get the facts together then you have no choice but to believe what it seems.

-Gear

[PT]

i just spoke with someone from kefei and they assure me that its 191aa

[Gear]

Don't believe everything you see or hear.

-Gear

[PT]

Don't believe everything you see or hear.

-Gear

im well aware of that. i said up above that i belive there 192aa and i still do. i was just stating what i was told. i have been around way to long to belive anything without proof

[thunderin]

Here is some scientific evidence I found.

Originally Posted by fred9
hey was reading about the side-effects of HGH and came along the following:

191AA (Humatrope):
As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. During the first 6 months of Humatrope therapy in 314 naive patients, only 1.6% developed specific antibodies to Humatrope (binding capacity ≥0.02 mg/L). None had antibody concentrations which exceeded 2 mg/L. Throughout 8 years of this same study, two patients (0.6%) had binding capacity >2 mg/L. Neither patient demonstrated a decrease in growth velocity at or near the time of increased antibody production. It has been reported that growth attenuation from pituitary-derived growth hormone may occur when antibody concentrations are
>1.5 mg/L.

192AA (Protropin):
As with all protein pharmaceuticals, a small percentage of patients may develop antibodies to the protein. Growth hormone antibody binding capacities below 2 mg/L have not been associated with growth attenuation. In some cases when binding capacity exceeds 2 mg/L, growth attenuation has been observed. In clinical studies and postmarketing experience of patients treated with 192 amino acid for injection, approximately 0.4 percent of patients screened for antibody production developed antibodies with binding capacities > 2 mg/L at six months. Out of approximately 26,000 patients who have been treated with 192 amino acid residues , 5 (=0.02%)patients have had growth deceleration associated with binding capacities > 2 mg/L. If growth deceleration is observed that is not attributable to another cause, the patient should be tested for antibodies to growth hormone. Although no evidence exists to indicate that the methionine on the N-terminus of 192 amino acid residues causes antibodies to growth hormone, the physician should consider transferring the patient to somatropin (rDNA origin) for injection, if a patient has antibody binding capacity > 2 mg/L, and has exhibited growth attenuation.


Most 192AA is reconstituted with bac. water which includes BA and most 191AA with sterile water. Some people are sensitive to the benzyl alcohol and develop red welts from it. Its not the 192AA.

Originally Posted by fred9
found some more articles:


-Department of Analytical Chemistry, Genentech Inc., South San Francisco, CA 94080, USA. [email protected]

The clinical development of methionyl human growth hormone, with particular emphasis on immunogenicity and the effects of antibody development, are summarized. In an animal model in rhesus monkeys, the immunogenicity of dinical preparations was reduced by the inclusion of additional purification steps in the manufacturing process. The immunogenic response in patients was also decreased by these improvements. No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%). The data suggest that the immunogenicity was not due to the N-terminal methionine or E. coli protein impurities: rather it was probably caused by small amounts of growth hormone with subtle structural alterations whose nature remains unknown.

PMID: 12434920 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

-The use of an animal immunogenicity model in the development of Protropin somatrem (methionyl human growth hormone).

Jones AJ.

Department of Analytical Chemistry, Genentech Inc., South San Francisco, CA 94080, USA. [email protected]

The clinical development of methionyl human growth hormone, with particular emphasis on immunogenicity and the effects of antibody development, are summarized. In an animal model in rhesus monkeys, the immunogenicity of dinical preparations was reduced by the inclusion of additional purification steps in the manufacturing process. The immunogenic response in patients was also decreased by these improvements. No safety consequences related to antibody formation were observed and the occurrence of growth attenuation due to antibodies was found to be extremely low (<0.1%). The data suggest that the immunogenicity was not due to the N-terminal methionine or E. coli protein impurities: rather it was probably caused by small amounts of growth hormone with subtle structural alterations whose nature remains unknown.

-The molecular basis of recombinant DNA technology is described, and the principles of genetically engineered proteins developed. The production of hGH by such methods utilizes a strain of Escherichia coli as host and a vector plasmid containing the appropriate information. Fermentation and purification of the hGH produced gives a preparation of high purity, containing only 1-2 ppm of E. coli polypeptide (ECP). This somatrem (Somatonorm) is identical to pituitary hGH except for an additional methionine residue at the N-terminal. Monoclonal antibodies fail to distinguish between pituitary hGH and somatrem. Preclinical studies of a variety of pharmacological and toxicological parameters indicate that the two hGH preparations have identical biological effects; no toxicological or mutagenic effects of somatrem have been detected

Monoclonal antibodies to human growth hormone can distinguish between pituitary and genetically engineered forms.

Aston R, Cooper L, Holder A, Ivanyi J, Preece M.

Monoclonal antibodies (MABs) prepared against human pituitary growth hormone (hGH) have been compared for their binding to pituitary-derived and genetically engineered methionyl growth hormone (met-hGH). The antibodies bind to four non-overlapping epitopes of which two are completely shared with human choronic somatomammotropin (hCS). The determinant defined by MAB NA27 was expressed on met-hGH to a lesser degree than on hGH of pituitary origin. However, another antibody, QA68, which binds to a determinant closely related to NA27, failed to discriminate between hGH and met-hGH. A further two MABs (EB1 and NA71) were similarly ineffective in distinguishing between the two forms of the hormone. The determinant recognized by antibody EB2 was equally represented on hGH and met-hGH when assessed by a liquid-phase radioimmunoassay: however, measurement of the binding in a solid-phase assay resulted in a two-four-fold lower binding to met-hGH. Bioactivity assessed by both an in vitro cell proliferation assay and an in vivo cartilage sulphation bioassay failed to distinguish between the two hormones. It is therefore concluded that the NH2-terminal methionine on bacterially derived growth hormone results in altered antigenicity of the hormone without any measurable effect on bioactivity
Thus the bioactivity of met-hgh is the same as HGH

Most studies are performed on people with GHD, they allready have a very high anti-body level to HGH...Another problem is that most antibodies that were measured in those studies is based on antibodies to Escherichia coli proteins and not the antibodies to met-HGH..

[Mutation]

i just spoke with someone from kefei and they assure me that its 191aa

Speak to anybody in the buisness of selling generic GH (yes, Kefei is considered generic, as they have NO license), and they will tell you what you want to hear.

Do I belive Kefei is 191aa...beats the crap out of me. The Kefei rep told me the same thing years ago. Yet Kefei seems to be the company that has a tendancy to give the most welts to users. Whether it be from imputities, excess fillers, or "allergic reaction to bac water".

The verdict is still out with Kefei. Some suppliers are even saying that Kefei is just a reseller.

The dumbass above that said the welts are due to allergic reaction to bacteriostatic water has not been around long. If that were the case then why can people go from using tha Bac water with blues and get welts, to using Bac water with ********** or other brands and get NO welts? Gee, I guess their allergic reactions to the water got up and walked away.

[thunderin]

Speak to anybody in the buisness of selling generic GH (yes, Kefei is considered generic, as they have NO license), and they will tell you what you want to hear.

Do I belive Kefei is 191aa...beats the crap out of me. The Kefei rep told me the same thing years ago. Yet Kefei seems to be the company that has a tendancy to give the most welts to users. Whether it be from imputities, excess fillers, or "allergic reaction to bac water".

The verdict is still out with Kefei. Some suppliers are even saying that Kefei is just a reseller.

The dumbass above that said the welts are due to allergic reaction to bacteriostatic water has not been around long. If that were the case then why can people go from using tha Bac water with blues and get welts, to using Bac water with ********** or other brands and get NO welts? Gee, I guess their allergic reactions to the water got up and walked away.

I was merely posting information that I found as I stated, but it nice to know I am a dumbass Thanks

[PT]

Speak to anybody in the buisness of selling generic GH (yes, Kefei is considered generic, as they have NO license), and they will tell you what you want to hear.

Do I belive Kefei is 191aa...beats the crap out of me. The Kefei rep told me the same thing years ago. Yet Kefei seems to be the company that has a tendancy to give the most welts to users. Whether it be from imputities, excess fillers, or "allergic reaction to bac water".

The verdict is still out with Kefei. Some suppliers are even saying that Kefei is just a reseller.

The dumbass above that said the welts are due to allergic reaction to bacteriostatic water has not been around long. If that were the case then why can people go from using tha Bac water with blues and get welts, to using Bac water with ********** or other brands and get NO welts? Gee, I guess their allergic reactions to the water got up and walked away.

actually shanghai kefei biotech co ltd in china does have a license.

[Mutation]

actually shanghai kefei biotech co ltd in china does have a license.

That is new to me. Where did you get that information?

[Mutation]

I was merely posting information that I found as I stated, but it nice to know I am a dumbass Thanks

You got me wrong brother. I am calling Fred9 a dumbass. He is the one that stated bacteriostatic water is the problem.

I'm sure you guys got my point though, correct? If it was bacteriostatic water causing all of these problems, then how could these same people switch to a new brand using the same Bact Water, and have no problems at all.

[Gear]

That is new to me. Where did you get that information?

There are a few things which make be believe they are just another bunch of people who purchase aftermarket HGH and sell to make a profit. For example, if they were a legit business who had the license to produce 191aa HGH why are they not promoting it more? There is a lot of money to be made in that business and promotion is the key. Where is their company website? A company who is allowed to legally produce HGH would be a multi million dollar company (especially one which produces 191aa HGH), and a multi million dollar company always has a website. Anyway, why would they be using a secure email address to communicate with customers and not a proper business email address? Things like that make me think they are not as legit as they seem but I don't know for sure.

-Gear

[PT]

if they dont then they have one he11 of a good cover up. i cant say that i personally saw there license because i havnt but i was told many times that they do. do i belive it? i do because i have seen alot of evidence pointing towards it. there not only a hgh manufacturer but they specialize in the manufacturing and research of all different of anti-aging products including igf. now im not saying i know for a fact that they have a license but i belive they do.

[Mutation]

From what I remember, I was emailing the Kefei rep through their yahoo addy years ago. They had a website a while back, but it was junk.

I agree with you. I do not think they have a license, or they would not act so sneakey and shit them w/out labels to the U.S. You don't see Jintropin kits coming over with no labels.

I dont think anybody knows if it is 191 or 192, but I do know more people get welts from Kefei than any other brand...generic or not. That would mean it is either 192aa, has contaminants, or has excess fillers that people are allergic to. Ever heard of a licensed company's GH causing welts? I havnt!

On another note, Kefei works great for me and many others.

There are a few things which make be believe they are just another bunch of people who purchase aftermarket HGH and sell to make a profit. For example, if they were a legit business who had the license to produce 191aa HGH why are they not promoting it more? There is a lot of money to be made in that business and promotion is the key. Where is their company website? A company who is allowed to legally produce HGH would be a multi million dollar company (especially one which produces 191aa HGH), and a multi million dollar company always has a website. Anyway, why would they be using a secure email address to communicate with customers and not a proper business email address? Things like that make me think they are not as legit as they seem but I don't know for sure.

-Gear

[PT]

From what I remember, I was emailing the Kefei rep through their yahoo addy years ago. They had a website a while back, but it was junk.

I agree with you. I do not think they have a license, or they would not act so sneakey and shit them w/out labels to the U.S. You don't see Jintropin kits coming over with no labels.

I dont think anybody knows if it is 191 or 192, but I do know more people get welts from Kefei than any other brand...generic or not. That would mean it is either 192aa, has contaminants, or has excess fillers that people are allergic to. Ever heard of a licensed company's GH causing welts? I havnt!

On another note, Kefei works great for me and many others.

i have, kexing fitropin

[Mutation]

i have, kexing fitropin

That was random. What does that have to do with my post?

I know Kexing is extremely pure, and is actually suppposed to be pretty decent. Although it is 192aa, it causes less irritation than the generics. Remember, 192aa doesnt cause EVERYONE to get welts, just a percentage.

[PT]

That was random. What does that have to do with my post?

I know Kexing is extremely pure, and is actually suppposed to be pretty decent. Although it is 192aa, it causes less irritation than the generics. Remember, 192aa doesnt cause EVERYONE to get welts, just a percentage.

you said, ever heard of a licensed companies hgh giving so many people welts so i said kexing. a few years ago when kexing hgh was everywere alot of people complained of welts. as for the blue tops, im not defending the company because personally i dont even use them anymore. all i use is gensci and alot of red tops so i can give to sh1ts about kefei or there hgh. im just stating what i know and what i heard and thats all.

[Mutation]

you said, ever heard of a licensed companies hgh giving so many people welts so i said kexing. a few years ago when kexing hgh was everywere alot of people complained of welts. as for the blue tops, im not defending the company because personally i dont even use them anymore. all i use is gensci and alot of red tops so i can give to sh1ts about kefei or there hgh. im just stating what i know and what i heard and thats all.

Gotcha bro. Yes, Kexing would be a licenced company giving welts. I should have worded myself better. I should have said: Have you ever heard of a licensed company selling 191aa giving people welts.

Tricked me on that one. HaHa

[fred9]

You got me wrong brother. I am calling Fred9 a dumbass. He is the one that stated bacteriostatic water is the problem.

I'm sure you guys got my point though, correct? If it was bacteriostatic water causing all of these problems, then how could these same people switch to a new brand using the same Bact Water, and have no problems at all.

[mrincredible]

So what happens if your body develops antibodies? I started seeing some weird ass side effects.

mrincredible

[PT]

So what happens if your body develops antibodies? I started seeing some weird ass side effects.

mrincredible

your body just builds up immunities rendering the hgh useless

[mrincredible]

Thx

[RA]

Then what? would be my question...

your body just builds up immunities rendering the hgh useless

[PT]

Then what? would be my question...

the antibodies will make the hgh stop functioning and therfor it would be useless because your body will be imune

[Gear]

Well said pietro.

-Gear

[Mutation]

From what I read in Anabolics 2006, the antibodies lower the effects of the GH, but do not render it completely useless.

I guess everybody has their own theories and ideas about 192aa, antibodies, and immunity. But...personally, I wouldnt want to take any GH that was giving me welts.

[PT]

From what I read in Anabolics 2006, the antibodies lower the effects of the GH, but do not render it completely useless.

I guess everybody has their own theories and ideas about 192aa, antibodies, and immunity. But...personally, I wouldnt want to take any GH that was giving me welts.

it starts off by lowering the effect but once your body becomes completly immune to the hgh it will have no effect whatsoever