Glucophage question .

[Legolas]

Thinking to cycle glucophage for 6 to 8 weeks ( MAX ) , what do u guys think ??
For those who dont allready know me , im 22 years old , i was a fat but i started my transformation plan last april 2008 ( and yes in less than a month and ill be wrapping up my first year of the transformation journey ) ,since i started ive allready lost about 72pounds of fat and gained somewhere around 25 pounds of muscles , but i still have my belly fat which is so ****ing hard to get rid of im really finding it difficult to lose this fat im really depressed ive been having sleeping disorders for the past month or so !!!! anyway , my goal is not to bulk it never was to bulk my goal is to be fit and have lean muscle mass and i was thinking to cycle Glucophage cuz it will help me put a little bit of extra muscle that i want badly plus a guy told me that it will help me lose the fat especially around the belly area .

So please guys i need ur advice ( im making cardio exercises , trisets at the gym and a good diet almost no fats and very little amounts of carbs around 30g a day max ) i wanna know how to properly cycle glucophage to get that extra muscle mass i want , the dose , what to eat etc......

Thanks you guys i really need ur help

[Narkissos]

Thinking to cycle glucophage for 6 to 8 weeks ( MAX ) , what do u guys think ??

I see no reason to cycle off it personally.

Run it through-out your cutting diet.

For those who dont allready know me , im 22 years old , i was a fat but i started my transformation plan last april 2008 ( and yes in less than a month and ill be wrapping up my first year of the transformation journey ) ,since i started ive allready lost about 72pounds of fat and gained somewhere around 25 pounds of muscles

Nice.

So please guys i need ur advice ( im making cardio exercises , trisets at the gym and a good diet almost no fats and very little amounts of carbs around 30g a day max )

You're consuming almost primarily protein?

I think you need to modify your diet... particularly if you're going to use glucophage.

Moderate carb, moderate protein, low fat (not to be confused with 'no-fat').

Ingesting some fats is essential to fat loss... at least if you're concerned with maintaining skin/hair quality, keeping your immune system at peak efficiency, favourable hormone output, cortisol mediation, the assimilation of fat-soluble nutrients...etc. I could go on and on mate.

Visit the diet forum... Have your diet checked out.

It's served you thus far... but it can always be improved on.

i wanna know how to properly cycle glucophage to get that extra muscle mass i want , the dose , what to eat etc......

Thanks you guys i really need ur help

If huge increases in muscle mass is what you're searching for, you're looking at the wrong compound mate.

Glycogen supercompensation... favourable nutrient partitioning... and subsequently, fat-loss and improved recovery... yes.

Huge muscle mass increases? No.

-CNS

[Gear]

I was just about to say that gluco has nothing to do with gaining of muscle, all it does is control your blood glucose and is certainly not necessary in most cases unless you are diabetic.

On a side note, you have done very well with your gains, keep it up

-Gear

[Narkissos]

and is certainly not necessary in most cases unless you are diabetic.

Metformin is a great diet aide...whether bulking or cutting.

Its application isn't limited to diabetics.

That's like saying slin is solely for diabetics.

Metformin can be utilized in many capacities... e.g. To get an individual back into ketosis quickly after a re-feed. (re: keto dieting)

Multiple applications mate.

-CNS

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ glad u posted this - I'm using glucophage in conjunction with my carb cycling (prime) diet - I like it alot. Definite difference with it - no doubt .... Actually i believe you advised me on how to use it in an insulin thread where someone was insulin resistant ...etc....

[Narkissos]

^^^ glad u posted this - I'm using glucophage in conjunction with my carb cycling (prime) diet - I like it alot. Definite difference with it - no doubt ....

Glad you posted actually.

There's an abject lack of knowledge where the use of compounds like, in the dieting capacity, is concerned on these forums.

Glad you like it

Actually i believe you advised me on how to use it in an insulin thread where someone was insulin resistant ...etc....

Yeppers.

Did you, by the way, precede the carb-cycling w/ an actual primer?

It's wicked-effective.

[Narkissos]

Visit the diet forum... Have your diet checked out.

^^bump!

[Gear]

lol Nark, you always love putting your .02 no matter what the case. Anyway, I mentioned gluco not being necessary as his main goal is lean muscle mass, sure it helps in some ways but certainly not the first thing on the list to use if you are after lean muscle gains.

-Gear

[Deep_Fried]

Ditto.

Metformin is a good GDA and mediator of decreased insulin secretion for dieting.

However, it actually has a significant negative impact on hypertrophy via decreased Insulin, decreased hepatic IGF-1, raised IGF1BP, as well as inhibition of the signaling pathways mediated via IGF-1 that activate mTOR.

A snipet about Metformin from Datbtrue:

Metformin

Metformin chronically activates AMP-activated kinase (AMPK). AMPK slows liver glucose output by down-regulating expression of glucose-6-phosphatase and phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase; in skeletal muscle, it boosts the efficiency of insulin-stimulated glucose uptake by increasing expression of GLUT-4. These effects mandate a down-regulation of insulin secretion.

The resulting reduction of liver insulin activity will suppress liver production of IGF-I while boosting that of IGFBP-1, thereby decreasing plasma free IGF-I.
Stimulation of AMPK with Metformin also interferes with the Ras–Raf–MEK–ERK pathway of IGF-I signaling by inhibiting the ability of IGF-I to activate ras and its downstream targets.

Stimulation of AMPK with Metformin also blocks the ability of the PI3K-Akt pathway to activate mTOR.
Since the Ras–Raf–MEK–ERK cascade, as well as mTOR and its downstream targets, are key mediators of IGF-I’s ability to increase hypertrophy a systemic increase in AMPK activity as brought about by Metformin will hinder the potential for hypertrophy not only by diminishing plasma levels of insulin and free IGF-I, but also by intervening in the post-receptor intracellular pathways mediated events which bring about these bodybuilding effects.

[Legolas]

First of all i want to thank everyone who replied to my questions but i have some comments on some of the replies if u dont mind

I was just about to say that gluco has nothing to do with gaining of muscle, all it does is control your blood glucose and is certainly not necessary in most cases unless you are diabetic.

Isnt Glucophage considered an anabolic substance ? it may not be compaired to HGH or Insulin or testo etc..... anabolic and androgenic wise but still its anabolic ( at least that's what i know from reading bout this substance " metformine hcl " )

If huge increases in muscle mass is what you're searching for, you're looking at the wrong compound mate.

Glycogen supercompensation... favourable nutrient partitioning... and subsequently, fat-loss and improved recovery... yes.

Huge muscle mass increases? No.

-CNS

I didnt mention anything bout getting huge , in fact i mentioned that getting huge isnt my goal and never was , what i really want to know is if its possible to get an increase of 30 to 50% more muscles gains with glucophage cuz i really dont want to run any steroids or insulin and HGH is too expensive so..... ??

[Deep_Fried]

First of all i want to thank everyone who replied to my questions but i have some comments on some of the replies if u dont mind




Isnt Glucophage considered an anabolic substance ? it may not be compaired to HGH or Insulin or testo etc..... anabolic and androgenic wise but still its anabolic ( at least that's what i know from reading bout this substance " metformine hcl " )



I didnt mention anything bout getting huge , in fact i mentioned that getting huge isnt my goal and never was , what i really want to know is if its possible to get an increase of 30 to 50% more muscles gains with glucophage cuz i really dont want to run any steroids or insulin and HGH is too expensive so..... ??

NO, Metformin is hardly an anabolic substance by definition. It actually compromises the key aspects of what you would consider anabolic if you read the post above.
Insulin is anabolic, but metformin decreases its response to blood glucose as well as general baseline levels. IGF-1 and its signaling pathways are also inhibited to a degree as well. Put all this together in your head and you will have a better understanding.

So you dont want to have increase in muscle size but you want 30-50% muscle gains?? What does this mean to you??? To me it is very confusing and I can only surmise you mean strength and not mass since those would be the only 2 definitions of "muscle gains" you can apply to your statement.

Either way, both these goals are not something you should look to metformin for help with.

[Narkissos]

lol Nark, you always love putting your .02 no matter what the case.

I also like holding hands with that special some one, while taking long walks on the beach.

[Gear]

Either way, both these goals are not something you should look to metformin for help with.

Glad someone said this.

-Gear

[jimmyinkedup]

Ditto.

Metformin is a good GDA and mediator of decreased insulin secretion for dieting.

However, it actually has a significant negative impact on hypertrophy via decreased Insulin, decreased hepatic IGF-1, raised IGF1BP, as well as inhibition of the signaling pathways mediated via IGF-1 that activate mTOR.

A snipet about Metformin from Datbtrue:
Metformin

Metformin chronically activates AMP-activated kinase (AMPK). AMPK slows '> liver glucose output by down-regulating expression of glucose-6-phosphatase and phosphoenolpyruvate carboxykinase; in skeletal muscle, it boosts the efficiency of '> insulin-stimulated glucose uptake by increasing expression of GLUT-4. These effects mandate a down-regulation of '> insulin secretion.

The resulting reduction of '> liver insulin activity will suppress '> liver production of '> IGF-I while boosting that of IGFBP-1, thereby decreasing plasma free '> IGF-I.
Stimulation of AMPK with Metformin also interferes with the Ras–Raf–MEK–ERK pathway of '> IGF-I signaling by inhibiting the ability of '> IGF-I to activate ras and its downstream targets.

Stimulation of AMPK with Metformin also blocks the ability of the PI3K-Akt pathway to activate mTOR.
Since the Ras–Raf–MEK–ERK cascade, as well as mTOR and its downstream targets, are key mediators of '> IGF-I’s ability to increase hypertrophy a systemic increase in AMPK activity as brought about by Metformin will hinder the potential for hypertrophy not only by diminishing plasma levels of '> insulin and free '> IGF-I, but also by intervening in the post-receptor intracellular pathways mediated events which bring about these '> bodybuilding effects.

Interesting post and info - however the fact is glucophages' exact mechanism of action isnt 100% known. In fact more recent evidence suggests that it exudes its effects significantly at the insulin receptor site (tyrosene phosphatase). Its also believed to stimulate glycolysis (glucose removal from blood) ....and decrease glucose absorption rate in the gi tract. In fact even the AMPK theory outlined above is in question - it is now believed that AMPK may INCREASE insulin action - not decrease its production.. See Below:


Potential role of the AMP-activated protein kinase in regulation of insulin action

Jonathan S. Fisher

Department of Biology, 3507 Laclede Ave., Saint Louis University, St. Louis, MO 63103, USA

Received 12th December 2005 © Cellscience 2006


Because of the predominant role of skeletal muscle in insulin-stimulated clearance of blood glucose, understanding mechanisms for increasing the ability of muscle to respond to insulin could potentially lead to novel strategies for treatment or prevention of diabetes. Recently, the AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK), a heterotrimeric serine/threonine kinase, has emerged as a promising candidate for the potentiation of insulin action. Several antidiabetic drugs have been shown to activate AMPK, cellular stresses such as exercise that increase AMPK activity also increase insulin action, and several downstream targets of AMPK seem to be involved in regulation of insulin action. Although the picture is currently incomplete, it seems possible that AMPK or one of its effectors is a positive regulator of insulin-stimulated glucose transport. In addition to a discussion of the latest literature regarding AMPK and insulin action, this review includes a non-technical summary for students, academics from other fields, interested professionals, and the general public.


Non-technical summary

Insulin, a natural hormone which is secreted into the bloodstream after the consumption of carbohydrate rich meals, causes some tissues, including skeletal muscle (the muscles that make the body move), fat, and heart, to increase their uptake of glucose (blood sugar). Of these tissues, skeletal muscle is by far the most massive, comprising approximately 40% of body weight. The majority of glucose cleared from the bloodstream in response to insulin is stored in muscle. Therefore, muscle is of primary importance in the insulin-related control of blood glucose levels. Muscle that does not react properly to insulin often underlies the increased blood glucose concentrations which are the hallmark of diabetes.

It has been known for over two decades that a short time after exercise insulin works much better at stimulating glucose transport into muscle. Recently, evidence has emerged that a protein called the "AMP-activated protein kinase" (AMPK) could be responsible for increasing the sensitivity of muscle to insulin. AMPK appears to be a cellular fuel gauge that senses metabolic stresses or nutritional deficiency and subsequently controls several cellular processes to muster fuel resources and conserve energy. For example, it appears that AMPK can increase glucose transport into muscle but also increase the rate of fat burning by muscle. AMPK appears to activate several signaling pathways in muscle that are also stimulated by insulin, so it is possible that AMPK and insulin together could have synergistic effects on the signaling events that lead to glucose transport. AMPK also seems to prevent the negative effects on insulin's action of another cellular fuel gauge that senses nutrient sufficiency. Finally, it seems possible that the positive effect of AMPK on insulin's ability to stimulate glucose transport may simply be a result of increased fat burning that clears fat molecules (that inhibit insulin action), out of muscle cells.

Exercise robustly potentiates the action of insulin. However, some people at risk of developing diabetes are unable to exercise. Understanding the cellular mechanisms for increased sugar uptake into muscle is an important first step in developing drug strategies for treating or preventing diabetes when exercise is not a viable option.




So i wouldnt say for certain glucophage is catabolic. I certainly also wouldnt say its anabolic .I think Nark summed it up perfectly : its an aid - great while bulking or cutting.
I agree ......

[Narkissos]

I think Nark summed it up perfectly : its an aid - great while bulking or cutting.
I agree ......

Glad someone said this.

-Nark

[Legolas]

ok guys even if its not anabolic i wanna cycle glucophage cuz from what u guys said it should be a great aid while bulking or cutting so please can anyone suggest the cycle ?? the dose, what to eat etc... plzplzplz

[Narkissos]

^^I typed up a long reply... then i deleted it, realizing that it was moot.

We need to know what your diet looks like mate.

[Legolas]

^^I typed up a long reply... then i deleted it, realizing that it was moot.

We need to know what your diet looks like mate.

ok. ok
I dont have a "diet" like the ones nutritionists makes but in general i injest around 150g to 250g of protein a day , carbs max 30g altho sometimes its a bit more ( cuz ive lost my motivation after 1 year of dieting ! im cheating a lot nowadays :S ), almost no fats at all expect the fat that exists in meat and poultry etc.....

Protein sources are mainly chicken , tuna and whey protein shakes
Carbs sources are mainly from cereal
Fats as mentioned above .

PS: i still have to lose like 22-25 pounds of fat which 90% of this fat is in my stomach ! even my butt isnt fat anymore ! so as u can see my problem is mainly my stomach :'(

[Narkissos]

ok. ok
I dont have a "diet" like the ones nutritionists makes but in general i injest around 150g to 250g of protein a day

FYI: That is a HUGE discrepancy.

, carbs max 30g altho sometimes its a bit more ( cuz ive lost my motivation after 1 year of dieting ! im cheating a lot nowadays :S ), almost no fats at all expect the fat that exists in meat and poultry etc.....

Protein sources are mainly chicken , tuna and whey protein shakes
Carbs sources are mainly from cereal
Fats as mentioned above .

PS: i still have to lose like 22-25 pounds of fat which 90% of this fat is in my stomach ! even my butt isnt fat anymore ! so as u can see my problem is mainly my stomach :'(

Ok... as I suggested here: Glucophage question .

You need to visit the diet forum.

You need a diet.

Diet takes precedence over supplements and drugs.

Furthermore, the compound you're looking to use requires a sound diet.

You can't half-ass it mate.

-CNS

[Flex-Appeal]

Don't let Nark brain wash you on diet BS haha jk Nark. Diet truly is 80% of it. Like they say, you are what you eat, and it's so very true. I get more out of a spot on diet then an extra 200mgs of test. My diet is not perfect at all but everyday i like to make small improvements. This is a life long endeavor.

[Legolas]

its not easy for me to come up with a diet even if i require the help of the diet forum anyway please guys just tell me 3 things , the dosage of glucophage ( 500 , 850 etc... ) and the amount of carbs required with a certain dosage + when to injest the carbs

PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[PT]

if you dont even know the answer to those simple question then i reccomend you put the drugs on the back burner for now and do alot of research while your learning how to properly eat. all the drugs in the world wont do a damn thing for you if your diet isnt good

[Gear]

if you dont even know the answer to those simple question then i reccomend you put the drugs on the back burner for now and do alot of research while your learning how to properly eat. all the drugs in the world wont do a damn thing for you if your diet isnt good

-Gear

[Narkissos]

if you dont even know the answer to those simple question then i reccomend you put the drugs on the back burner for now and do alot of research while your learning how to properly eat. all the drugs in the world wont do a damn thing for you if your diet isnt good

For the second time this year, I have to agree with PT.

-CNS

[Flex-Appeal]

^ brownie points for you! Haha

[Legolas]

ok u guys i dont want a " fancy " diet just tell me how many grams of slow or fast acting carbs do i need to take with a single dose of 850mgs of glucophage please

[Narkissos]

ok u guys i dont want a " fancy " diet

You don't need a 'fancy' one.. you need a sound one.

just tell me how many grams of slow or fast acting carbs do i need to take with a single dose of 850mgs of glucophage please

More than your current non-diet allows.

You need structure dude...

[Legolas]

what do u meen by structure ??

Please man just tell me how much carbs a day do i need if i take 850g glucophage a day , so i dont hurt myself

[PT]

For the second time this year, I have to agree with PT.

-CNS

im telling you nark, your moving on up. you keep this up and you'll be on that stage again in no time

[Narkissos]

im telling you nark, your moving on up. you keep this up and you'll be on that stage again in no time

What stage would that be?

Showtime at the Apollo?