mixed views on Lantus

[G-Force]

ok alot of people in the uk bodybuilding scene are raving about this long acting slin
claiming very large gains in a short period of time with very little chances of going hypo

i have done a search on here and it seems gear and a few others advise against this

and i just wondered the reason

it seems that it will increase protein synthesis and glycogen uptake all day long and u will gain minimum amounts of fat if you are using hgh and t3 or t4 with it

i heard somone on here say lantus will make u fat and possibly kill you

how can it be more likely to kill you than humalog when u are much more likely to become hyp from fast acting slins such as humlog

i am just lookin for some reasons for these statements

and possibly some pro's vs cons

[Garbanzo Dude]

What doses are these guys running and when? I've asked around about this a while and most told me it was a waste of time.

[G-Force]

they start on 20iu sub q first thing in the am with breakfast
and work up to 30 or 40iu a day

[G-Force]

man this board is slow

anyway i am trying lantus for the first time
put on 3.5kg in one week
strength is up
i am not suggesting for a minute that is all muscle
infact about 90% of its probably water since i was on low carbs for 5 weeks previously

going to see how the next few weeks pan out

[G-Force]

PWO fast acting insulin has many negative consequences.

1. lower blood glucose when we need it most for krebs cycle to generate ATP - no ATP no protein synthesis. Time when protein synthesis will start significantly delayed.

2. low blood glucose will stimulate secretion of glucagon, another pancreatic hormone. glucagon will use proteins to support glucose level. Instead of helping protein synthesis we are stimulating release of glucagon which will digest those proteins in muscles, which are still remained PWO.

3. fast acting insulin create sharp rise in insulin level as result IDE insulin degrading enzymes will be on rise too. It has few negative consequences: first it will leave us on low insulin level even after our humalog is gone, second IDEs can degrade IGF too. Instead of having more Igf in circulation PWO we are lowering it.

4. Did not serve the purpose - our goal PWO to make muscles to absorb more glucose and amino acids, insulin instead blocking release of glucose from liver and muscle cells already have GLUt4 transporter at any time and do not depend on insulin to absorb glucose.

5. if you drinking carbs/proteins drink during workout or PWO (everybody do) then you insulin PWO will be elevated already, simply does not make any sense injecting more insulin.

[G-Force]

One last thought I had is that we've never proven the rapid-insulin theory. It remains theory. It's only proven to succeed in throwing a quick 10-15 lbs on you before it fizzles out. Never has it been a strictly lean mass gain either, let's be honest.

This is because insulin spikes result in fat spillover, my friends.

This is why you are better off with 24 hour nutrition, eating complex carbs throughout the day, than consuming 50% of them in the form of sugar after a workout.

But forget the well established principles of nutrition for a moment.

Let's talk about rapid-insulin theory. The idea is that the muscles are "primed and ready" to shuttle in carbs and protein after training. (Let's also forget for now that there is some research that calls into question the traditional concept of the post-workout window.) So, the idea is that a quick spike of insulin will hammer in a ton of nutrients during this period of receptivity. But I've never seen a single study posted that has objectively measured the ability of rapid insulin to do this without resulting in fat spillover.

It's a good enough idea, isn't it? But where's the proof?

So we would be remiss to not take other theory into account when evaluating this theory, wouldn't we. This is another theory.

So, kick the tires and try it out for yourself. That's the only proof you'll need.

And the proof I've seen indicates a far superior result from long-acting insulin. Far greater gains with less fat spillover, by simply avoiding the huge spikes. Enhancing the concept of 24 hour nutrition. There are some principles that need to be followed, of course, to do it correctly. But long-acting insulin is far more powerful and far safer than rapid, and avoids the issues that Max raises in regard to rapid insulin above.

Who's right and who's wrong? You may just have to try it to find out, as the traditional slin guys certainly haven't (or they'd be dead by now. )

[paypeStaivy]

I forgot to say, Flamenco, that when I started on Lantus and Novorapid, my sugar levels had been in the high 20s/low 30s for around 6 weeks. 26 units suits me well now, but I daresay as it progresses, more will be needed.