HGH SubQ vs. IM

**DeepDiver** · 03-16-2011, 03:38 PM

Greets All: Coming off a Test Deca Cycle and will be starting a 4 to 6 month HGH Cycle. This is all Dr proscribed due to my job requirements. In any case, that’s another discussion. I have done HGH before (about 4 years ago) with good results, and my questions are:

Sub Q vs. IM pin &
twice per day pin

Now I have read all the great posts on this, including the excellent article written by Red Barron (where r u RB??) and am in need of something a bit more recent. My Doc says that the newest thinking is IM pin for HGH, so does anyone have any recent thinking on the subject? I have read the 2007 study Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of GH: dependence on route and dosage of administration, and it clearly goes with IM (I think, need a scientist to translate) but as I read posts here from the vets it seems to still point to subq, however, these are old post!! Can someone point me to newer ones or give an opinion?

Also, Doc is saying don’t listen to the “don’t do the nighttime pin stuff, I’m a doc and i know better”. Yeah, heard that before, again he says this is new data and that "we" learn new things about this every day. Any help most appreciated in advance.

Plan is for 1.5 to 2.0 ius to start, twice daily, see how its tolerated and go from there. 49 y/o, 200 lb male, teens bf%, 5 day early am heavy workout.

**cyounger100** · 03-16-2011, 04:37 PM

your doc is saying that it is good too inject nitetime hgh ? and IM for adminstration i do subq but im no doctor thats for sure

**ScotchGuard02** · 03-16-2011, 09:38 PM

I've tried both. I get better results with subq. IM seems to enter my blood stream a lot faster but i get more sides like tight hands. With subq my body seems to absorb the HGH more consistently rather than spiking the concentration. I'm been on HGH for over two years 5iu/ed and tried about 11 different HGH brands.

**DeepDiver** · 03-17-2011, 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by cyounger100

your doc is saying that it is good too inject nitetime hgh ? and IM for adminstration i do subq but im no doctor thats for sure

Yes, thats what the Doc is recommending and is the reason I ask for recent info, according to him, twice a day split and IM is the "new" thinking. This Doc is nationaly known in sports medicine, so he is no quack. Sometimes I tend to trust the vets a bit more though, thanks for your response. By the way I am 49 years old, this tends to make a big difference as it relates to PM pin, anyone know more about age related theorys related to this?

**DeepDiver** · 03-17-2011, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by ScotchGuard02

I've tried both. I get better results with subq. IM seems to enter my blood stream a lot faster but i get more sides like tight hands. With subq my body seems to absorb the HGH more consistently rather than spiking the concentration. I'm been on HGH for over two years 5iu/ed and tried about 11 different HGH brands.

Scotch; do you split the 5iu or go all at once? Some other reading I did last nite indicated a im pin in the am and a sq in the PM. Confusing to say the least, its so damn expensive you want to make sure you get he most bang for the buck! Thanks for your help

**Hazard** · 03-17-2011, 08:19 AM

here's what I have found.....

IM injections get the HGH in the blood stream faster but there's a lower absorbtion or your body utilizes less of what you inject. Sub Q injections wont give you as much of a spike because the absorbtion is slower. Wish I could find the study again.....

Regarding the night time injections..... it doesn't matter what the "new" thinking is...... unless a study proves that injecting exogenous hgh will not shut down your natural production..... why risk shutting down your largest pulse? I'd split it early am and PWO.....

~Haz~

**Hazard** · 03-17-2011, 08:20 AM

Also..... is he a sports medicine doctor or an endocrinologist? I work with a ton or sports med docs on a daily basis and they don't know their ass from their elbow when it comes to hormones. Tendons and joints..... yes. Hormones..... NO.

~Haz~

**DeepDiver** · 03-17-2011, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Hazard

here's what I have found.....

Regarding the night time injections..... it doesn't matter what the "new" thinking is...... unless a study proves that injecting exogenous hgh will not shut down your natural production..... why risk shutting down your largest pulse? I'd split it early am and PWO.....

~Haz~

Thanks Hazzard, now I'm getting somewhere.. I agree based on what i read, and was concerend that even at 49 years old, I would shut down the nite push. Since I work out at 5am M-F, what would you recommend for timing? I normally rise at 4:15am, have some oatmeal and a shake and i'm at the gym at 5am. Would you recomend i get up at 3am, pin and then go back to bed? What about a PWO, maybe early afternoon? Thanks for your help, much appreciated...

**DeepDiver** · 03-17-2011, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Hazard

Also..... is he a sports medicine doctor or an endocrinologist? I
~Haz~

Haz: He's board certified MD, and board certified in Anti-Aging and regenerative medicine. I think he was thinking that at my age, I dont have much pushing at nite, who knows, Let me know what you think of my split times question above. Thanks!

**Newcastle** · 03-17-2011, 11:55 AM

What kinda work do you do, I want that kinda job.

**DeepDiver** · 03-17-2011, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Newcastle

What kinda work do you do, I want that kinda job.

I swims around on the bottom of the sea.... Welding Metal things together.... or taking them apart... You don't want this job, unless you like to swim with the "big fishes" or hang around oil rigs or pipelines, but hey, someones got to do it! In any case what is meant by my comment is that I have to have a script for everything I do or the company Doc wont let me play in the water, plus I'm an old fart now, gotta know what I'm putting in the tank!

**Hazard** · 03-17-2011, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by DeepDiver

Thanks Hazzard, now I'm getting somewhere.. I agree based on what i read, and was concerend that even at 49 years old, I would shut down the nite push. Since I work out at 5am M-F, what would you recommend for timing? I normally rise at 4:15am, have some oatmeal and a shake and i'm at the gym at 5am. Would you recomend i get up at 3am, pin and then go back to bed? What about a PWO, maybe early afternoon? Thanks for your help, much appreciated...

Originally Posted by DeepDiver

Haz: He's board certified MD, and board certified in Anti-Aging and regenerative medicine. I think he was thinking that at my age, I dont have much pushing at nite, who knows, Let me know what you think of my split times question above. Thanks!

Yea i'm not sure what an average pulse is for someone around 50. I can't say whether it would be worth not shutting down that nite pulse or not. If you have no issues with taking a shot at 3am go for it. Then i'd probably take another around 12 noon. GH is active int he body for around 5 hours or so I believe - so it shouldn't affect a nite pulse.

Now.... on the other hand...... taking a shot before bed may help with sleep. I'd wait for some more responses, particularly from scotchguard or someone with a lot of hgh experience, before you get set with a protocol.

~Haz~

**Hazard** · 03-17-2011, 05:44 PM

Also remember that carbs can affect the absorbtion of HGH..... try not to eat them an hour before or after your shot.

~Haz~

**supe3** · 03-17-2011, 06:45 PM

This thread seems to go well with another that was started a couple days ago... http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...how-you-should

I'm not sure it got the discussion and debate I thought it would. Does anyone have some thoughts on it?

**DeepDiver** · 03-18-2011, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

Yea i'm not sure what an average pulse is for someone around 50. I can't say whether it would be worth not shutting down that nite pulse or not. If you have no issues with taking a shot at 3am go for it. Then i'd probably take another around 12 noon. GH is active int he body for around 5 hours or so I believe - so it shouldn't affect a nite pulse.

Now.... on the other hand...... taking a shot before bed may help with sleep. I'd wait for some more responses, particularly from scotchguard or someone with a lot of hgh experience, before you get set with a protocol.

~Haz~

Thanks Haz. I am going to try that routine, rise at 3, pin, then back to bed an hour before i eat and workout. Since I go to bed at 8:30pm, I will take the second shot at mid afternoon. I really appreciate your help, just got my gear and al set for 6 months, I'm so broke now wont have to worry about eatn carbs LOL

**DeepDiver** · 03-18-2011, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by supe3

This thread seems to go well with another that was started a couple days ago... http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...how-you-should

I'm not sure it got the discussion and debate I thought it would. Does anyone have some thoughts on it?

Supe, I read the study the other day, unfortuantly I dont have the background to understand it without relying on the interperter. In any case, if true, bedtime works, who knows

**Sgt. Hartman** · 03-18-2011, 03:00 PM

This chart shows the different amounts of GH that "average" adult males secrete in a 24hr period and how much of it is during the day and how much during sleep.

The chart measures GH in mcg and 1mcg = .003iu of GH so at 50 you're producing less than .3iu during sleep.

Whether or not the advantages of pinning at night are great enough to offset losing your .3iu - who knows?

**DeepDiver** · 03-18-2011, 04:38 PM

Awesome chart Sarge, I would have to say that if I inject 1.5iu of gh at 8pm and the negative feed back loop starts 2 hours after falling asleep (accordong to the study above in Supe3's link) than I am in good shape. However, earlier in the day like early afternoon should work as well. I quizzed my doc some more today and he indicated that a subq at 8pm will have no effect on my natural relase that should occur by 11pm. What he did say was most important was to pick a time in the AM and the PM and try to stick to it religiously. That, according to him, was the most important part of the protocl. Many thanks, if anyone else has input please post, I will be starting Monday morning.

**DeepDiver** · 05-02-2011, 09:30 AM

Update: I am in week six of my 3 iu per day split 1.5am and 1.5pm. As far as the time I was doing my second pin at 2am, back to sleep for 2 hours, rise at 4 for gym. I spoke to the doc and he said the last hours of sleep are far more important than getting up, pin and sleep again. So he has me on early am after I return from gym and fast a couple hours (about 9am) and then again at 2pm since I go to bed at 8pm. My Dr taught me a great trick for painless IM if you want to go that route; Sit in a chair, put your palm on the top of your thigh, move it to the outside of your thigh, not the inside, so the back of your palm is now facing out, not up. The area on the side of your thigh, about 7 inches long starting from your knee heading to your groin contains zero fat (on men) and no nerve endings. He says that nature has no nerve endings there because we tend to bang our legs there all the time. Well, whatever the reason he is correct, feel for yourself, no fat, all muscle and most important no nerve endings. He says the top of your thighs and the inside are loaded with nerves and it hurts a little bit. I do my am in the right leg side of my thigh and my pm in the left leg side. I am down 10 full pounds in 6 weeks, however I did just come off a test deca cylce so half that is related to that, maybe more. In any case great results so far, awesome energy levels!

**ScotchGuard02** · 06-22-2011, 03:48 PM

I do 5iu/ed and I don't split it up. I split it up for about a year and then I got lazy. I take all 5iu/ed in the morning as soon as I get. I haven't felt any difference as when I was pinning twice a day. I do subQ because it feels easier on my body. If you're doing only 3iu/ed I'd just do the whole thing in the morning. Anything over 5iu/ed I'd split into two doses.