HGH caused my heart enlargement??

**Gappa** · 07-27-2009, 09:38 PM

I went into the hospital the other day with shortness of breath and wheezing. After a CAT scan an echocardiogram and several EKG's they say my heart is enlarged and only pumping at 50% capacity. One valve is distorted and leaking in the lower left ventricle.
So what caused this?? The HGH?
I'm only 33 years old..

**peteroy01** · 07-27-2009, 10:19 PM

its common(dont think the 50% thing is). i have it as well i think 1in25 people have it and most dont know. heres a link if you want to know more. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/758816-overview

**lovbyts** · 07-28-2009, 05:29 AM

That sucks. so what's the fix? Do they have to operate to fix it?

**peteroy01** · 07-28-2009, 08:44 AM

i was put on 6.25mg of Carvedilol(beta blocker) 2x per day and 10mg Lisinopril(Ace inhibitor) the goal was to slow(carv) my heart rate and bring down BP(lisi). as you know the heart is a muscle and when worked out it gets bigger like any other muscle. you throw in some AAS and GH and you get even more growth. by taking the combined meds i lowered my heart rate and brought down my BP so my heart doesnt have to work as hard and will shrink like any other muscle not being used. when one has prolonged high BP the left ventricle tries to adapt by growing thicker to pump more blood with a stronger contraction. but its a flaw in our heart. the thicker the heart wall gets the less elasticity it has. kinda like being huge and loosing flexibility=less blood flow. hope that helps.

**Klimax** · 07-28-2009, 12:00 PM

Have you used clen before?

**peteroy01** · 07-28-2009, 12:26 PM

any stim will do what clen does to your heart. vasoconstriction, increased heart rate, hypertention. all of these overwork the heart and cause it to adapt(thicken the left ventricle). well the left V is the first to thicken and then the rest of the heart does as well. was the clen question directed towards me

**Klimax** · 07-28-2009, 01:01 PM

No, to Gappa.

**Gappa** · 07-28-2009, 04:45 PM

no clen but adderall and other amphetamines yes.

**Gappa** · 07-28-2009, 04:48 PM

many are saying that IGF-1 therapy can strengthen the heart itself.. any truth to this?

**DSM4Life** · 07-28-2009, 04:55 PM

This is the risk you take when you ask people on here that have no real medical education other than what they read on the internet.

good luck.

**peteroy01** · 07-28-2009, 05:57 PM

IGF may strengthen the heart but if you read my above post you will c that your heart doesnt need strengthening. the culprit is probably-amps(stems), HGH, and AAS. can you remember if the doc said that you had mitral valve regurgitation.

**seriousmass** · 07-28-2009, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

This is the risk you take when you ask people on here that have no real medical education other than what they read on the internet.

good luck.

x2.... I'd stop asking people on steroid .com for advice; rather, I'd explain IN DEPTH, all the AAS + HGH you've been taking to your doc. Enlargement of the heart is a serious, serious medical condition.

Stick to what your cardiovascular-specialist doc + the endocrinologist say. Those doc's have been in school for 15+ years; I wouldn't question their judgment on a medical problem of this magnitude..

**Gappa** · 07-28-2009, 07:45 PM

shit I thought i would just bang another 300mgs of amps into my neck and ride it out.
no seriously I am on carvedilol, lisinopril, digoxin, and flurosemide "lasix" for the fluid back up in my lungs. I am going in for a nuclear stress test tomorrow.
only reason I am asking here is I am sure to find more folks with identical problems here as many have followed similar paths in their training and substance intake. I would be much more likely here than in a retirement community or forum for computer nerds.lol

**DSM4Life** · 07-28-2009, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Gappa

shit I thought i would just bang another 300mgs of amps into my neck and ride it out.
no seriously I am on carvedilol, lisinopril, digoxin, and flurosemide "lasix" for the fluid back up in my lungs. I am going in for a nuclear stress test tomorrow.
only reason I am asking here is I am sure to find more folks with identical problems here as many have followed similar paths in their training and substance intake. I would be much more likely here than in a retirement community or forum for computer nerds.lol

There is no such thing as "identical problems" when it comes to medical conditions. We are all different , even when we have the same problem (ironic). Do yourself and your loved ones a favor and take advice only from your current doctor.

**goose** · 07-28-2009, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

There is no such thing as "identical problems" when it comes to medical conditions. We are all different , even when we have the same problem (ironic). Do yourself and your loved ones a favor and take advice only from your current doctor.

The gurus and bodybuilders talk amongst themselves, and they damn well they should have to,im in the trenches punk. There is no other means by which bodybuilding pharmacology can be disseminated, assessed, honed, and perfected. The bodybuilding-type research these guys need isn't being studied by the mainstream medical community, peer reviewed, and published in prestigious journals. There are no university studies with a protocol that requires 4000 - 5000 mg, or more, of testosterone a week per subject. For better or worse, bodybuilding is proven in the trenches. Where else would warriors line up willingly as test subjects? You've got to have balls in order to lose them, and they do on both counts.You think you local doctor knows about steroids and HGH use??? This is not a healthy sport.

**DSM4Life** · 07-28-2009, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by goose

The gurus and bodybuilders talk amongst themselves, and they damn well they should have to,im in the trenches punk. There is no other means by which bodybuilding pharmacology can be disseminated, assessed, honed, and perfected. The bodybuilding-type research these guys need isn't being studied by the mainstream medical community, peer reviewed, and published in prestigious journals. There are no university studies with a protocol that requires 4000 - 5000 mg, or more, of testosterone a week per subject. For better or worse, bodybuilding is proven in the trenches. Where else would warriors line up willingly as test subjects? You've got to have balls in order to lose them, and they do on both counts.You think you local doctor knows about steroids and HGH use??? This is not a healthy sport.

I agree but what i said still stands. It all comes down to you being a test rat. Its a personal decision one has to make and i don't rest all the blame on people here . He should understand when you play with matches someone is bound to get burnt. Might not happen to you but when this guys heart possible gives out tell that to his children.

I agree.

**goose** · 07-28-2009, 08:18 PM

I will say this.

Its unlikely this dude got these complications from HGH.Unless he has used HGH for over 5 years and doses above 10iu ED.

IM guessing he has not,but with his condition, stop using AAS and peptides.And concentrate on your health.

Good luck.

**DSM4Life** · 07-28-2009, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by goose

I will say this.

Its unlikely this dude got these complications from HGH.Unless he has used HGH for over 5 years and doses above 10iu ED.

IM guessing he has not,but with his condition, stop using AAS and peptides.And concentrate on your health.

Good luck.

I think it just frustrates me when i hear people cycling for years, come here with a problem and when you ask when his last blood work was taken he says never. I just don't understand how people can be so wreakless with something so important.

**peteroy01** · 07-28-2009, 08:32 PM

Gappa-you wouldnt happen to have a copy of your EKG would you.

**peteroy01** · 07-28-2009, 08:34 PM

and if your on anything, QUIT now and start PCT.

**peteroy01** · 07-28-2009, 08:39 PM

DSM- i dont think he's looking for medical advice here but looking for a reason why he has his condition. and i agree with you that we are all different but docs tend to treat the same medical problems the same way.

**pharm-muscle** · 07-28-2009, 08:44 PM

What was your ejection fraction, that will gives us(me) an idea of how bad your left sided heart failure is. Left sided heart failure isnt too bad as long as it is not dilated cardiomyopathy..that is when the old antique of a drug digoxin has its use.
Just watch yer health now man...as we say in cardiology...an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...keep that BP down..you should also be on spironolactone as this blocks aldosterone remodeling of the heart...it is another mainstay of heart failure!..U should also thinnk about a statin! Even if your cholesterol is reasonable...if you are infact do have LVH(left ventricular hypertrophy we need to keep those coronary arteries clean and open!

Gappa, what dose of dig r u on...that shit is worthless essentially...only good for symptoms of Heart failure...and more specifically dilated cardio myopathy...which I doubt you have if you are a younger body builder! It does not alter the course of the disease...justs keeps people out f the hospital from symptoms of heart failure

BTW about ready to graduate with a residency in cardiolgy (PharmD with cardiology specialty) So all of this is current recomendations of the 2008 chest guidlines!

**DSM4Life** · 07-28-2009, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by peteroy01

DSM- i dont think he's looking for medical advice here but looking for a reason why he has his condition. and i agree with you that we are all different buy docs tend to treat the same medical problems the same way.

Yeah i started going into the general direction with my rant.

**peteroy01** · 07-28-2009, 08:54 PM

ive been doing that lately too. think its the tren .

**Gappa** · 07-28-2009, 09:07 PM

ejection fraction was 25to30%.. 60% is considered normal.. right?? i disagree dsm there are MANY well educated people i have found to be quite helpful in areas I am lacking on forums such as these. you never know who is watching/reading, doctors, scientists, millionaire business owners etc etc..
I will know more tomorrow.. This happened right after a light amphetamine run..used for diet and hunger control and for low carb energy levels so at least I listen to my body and deff have all my bloodwork up to date.. The meds given were just an initial discharge protocol I assume.
The CAT scan and cath tests were used to check for blockages which my arteries and vessels are squeaky clean. I don't doubt that as my diet has been very clean most of my adult life.

**Gappa** · 07-28-2009, 09:09 PM

medical advice for the "normal" population is often DRASTICALLY different than what we should expect as elite athletes.

**pharm-muscle** · 07-28-2009, 09:43 PM

50% is about normal! If it is 25-30% then it is probably systolic dysfunction...meaning you are not pumping everything out as well as you should...this is typically dilated cardio myopathy...the ventricles interior is dilated....not the wall of the heart! But, you said they also determined that you had a leaky valve...this can also present as dilated myopathy! Which in my eyes is not nearly as bad as a dilated left ventricle....cant really fix a dilated venticle, but can fix a valve! The Carvedilol might make you feel like shit at first! What dose lisinopril and carvedilol do they have you on?

Best of luck man!

**pharm-muscle** · 07-28-2009, 09:49 PM

diet might not matter if you use AAS regularly or are genetically predisposed to it!
just wanted to make sure

**peteroy01** · 07-28-2009, 10:01 PM

my hats off to pharm, awesome input
Gappa keep us posted dude.

**pharm-muscle** · 07-28-2009, 10:07 PM

Thanks peterpy01!
Yeah Gappa send me that ekg...ill tell you exactly what the heck is up...not that your MDs cant! just like to practice what Ive learned!

**pharm-muscle** · 07-28-2009, 10:17 PM

I bet it is purley valve related because body builders dont typically get systolic dysfunction...unless you have had years of HTN many years!...this valve issue would explain backflow into your lungs, and the poor ejection fraction....was the wall thickness normal of your left ventricle!
Im guessing you have mitral valve prolapse or insufficiency(sp...i cant spell sorry)....you might want to ask them about blood thinners ie Warfarin if this is the case 5mg every day to start proly!

**pharm-muscle** · 07-29-2009, 11:50 AM

hows it lookin...you see the doc today?

**Doc M** · 07-29-2009, 04:12 PM

Let me intervene here- sorry pharm-muscle, your input is very good, but he needs to keep in mind that his Docs are looking at the raw diagnostic data and making their decisions based on that. It's quite difficult/impossible to diagnose anything without seeing the entire picture of symptoms, patient history, etc., etc.

My recommendation would be to NOT go in for an appt. and ask them about any meds or other courses of therapy. Let them run all the specific tests, which they will, unless you are seeing a gaggle of morons, and then let them start a course of treatment based on the information that they obtain.

Make sure you are taking the meds exactly as prescribed and that you are following all of the advice of the people in charge of your care.

Also, what type of Doctor's are you seeing specifically? Maybe I just missed that as I was reading through the post.

Doc M

**pharm-muscle** · 07-29-2009, 04:50 PM

To diagnose mitral valve prolapse, LVH, Dilated cardiomyopathy is a 20min echo...regardless of what caused it...it is now an issue that needes to be resolved...i guess he neeeds to go in to get a full workup right...they def need to know his history...but labs and diagnstics wont lie to them either...if his ejection fraction is low and they have the images of his heart they dont need to know much more....Gappa, make sure they run a CBC and blood culture...could be an infectious source...RARE AS HELL...mainly see this in IV drug users using non-sterile injections...cover all bases...good luck!...side note...the spironolactone I suggested previously can cause gyno in 10% of men taking it...so if you are willing to pay more for a name brand Eplerenone is your other option and doesnt cause gyno
Thanks for the props DOC M!

**pharm-muscle** · 07-29-2009, 04:50 PM

Im hoping he is seeing cardiologists!!

**pharm-muscle** · 07-29-2009, 05:32 PM

Check...if...it was infection from injection it would most likely be on the right side of the heart

**Doc M** · 07-29-2009, 11:52 PM

He does need a complete workup, from ground zero. It's always the best way to help pinpoint other possible underlying issues. I hope they did in fact start from scratch and did all the necessary labs, blood draws, echo.....and start working the problem from there.

Keep us posted, I'm gonna follow this one carefully

Doc M

**Gappa** · 07-30-2009, 10:55 AM

I am seeing one of the top cardiologists in this area. Care and treatment in the Hilton Head area are some of the best around (all the rich retired golfer types). I did the stress test and am now eagerly waiting the results. I will surely post as soon as I hear. Thanks for all the good info pharm and doc.
You know it was funny I'm laying there on the hospital bed and the doctor comes in and says you have had heart failure... I asked him why I am not dead then.

**Gappa** · 07-30-2009, 11:05 AM

i didnt know much about the heart at all b4 except it has 4 chambers and pumps blood..

**DCannon** · 07-30-2009, 11:43 AM

I was told by a Cardiologist once that I have a leaky valve. He did a bunch of tests and followed up on it for a few years. Eventually he told me it was nothing to worry about and most people have it and don't even know about it.