Trying to figure HGH w/ or w/o insulin ???

[fm2002]

To start off I must say goal is to lose fat.

I've decided to add injectable Carnitine to my protocol. In order to get the Carnitine into the cells I'm using 1-2 iu's of insulin . I also use HGH @ 5iu's per day and have been for quite some time.

I can't seem to figure out whether HGH should be taken together with Insulin or not. I've read yes and no. For example many say HGH is antagonist of insulin and if taken together they basically cancel each other out. Another thread I read "The Book of Insulin" says they work great together. There other places that support this as well.

Remember I'm not a bodybuilder and do not want to build mass I want to burn/oxidize fat.

Can someone set me straight

This is my current protocol:

Wake up 7am: 2.5iu's HGH
8-8:30am breakfast

12:30PM workout
1:30PM inject 1ml Carnitine (assume a completed loading phase of 7.5ml the 1st week)
wait 15mins than 1-2iu's Humulin R U 100, 2.5 iu's HGH and a Whey shake w/ 2.5grams of Carbs

5:30pm eat dinner

The above is repeated 4 days a week

[SlimmerMe]

Be careful with insulin . Insulin is something which is not to be taken lightly. One wrong move and not a good thing.

And if you want to lose BF the best thing to do would be to go over to the Nutrition forum.

[MuscleInk]

Be careful with insulin . Insulin is something which is not to be taken lightly. One wrong move and not a good thing.

And if you want to lose BF the best thing to do would be to go over to the Nutrition forum.

Agreed. Insulin is NOT for amateurs.!!!

[fm2002]

Be careful with insulin . Insulin is something which is not to be taken lightly. One wrong move and not a good thing.

And if you want to lose BF the best thing to do would be to go over to the Nutrition forum.

Figured this was the place; ', HGH and Insulin Questions'

Have used insulin before and @ 1-2iu's I'm at the very low end of risk

[SlimmerMe]

Figured this was the place; ', HGH and Insulin Questions'

Have used insulin before and @ 1-2iu's I'm at the very low end of risk

You are correct this is the place for hgh/insulin. But...the best place to lose BF? is over in the nutrition forum.

[dtob]

correct me if im wrong but insulin is the storage hormone
as i understand ppl use it for putting on mass im unclear in why it would be run for fat loss

[fm2002]

correct me if im wrong but insulin is the storage hormone
as i understand ppl use it for putting on mass im unclear in why it would be run for fat loss

To get injectable Carnitine into the cells you need alot carbs/sugar or insulin. Carnitine not insulin for the fat loss.

[redz]

Terrible idea for just fat loss, there are far more simple safer ways.

[fm2002]

Seems everybody is focusing on the "fat loss" aspect of my protocol. I need help with hgh/insulin synergy or lack there of !

[human project]

Seems everybody is focusing on the "fat loss" aspect of my protocol. I need help with hgh/insulin synergy or lack there of !

Subscribed... I'm having the same issue bub.... I've been trying a few different protocols but 2.5 iu in the am and then 5ius split in two doses pre and infra workout then igf just before the end of workout then workout maybe 10-15more min and pin the slin.... I'm interested in what others say

[AnabolicDoc]

From what I understand, insulin works well with hgh to build muscle. Insulin will also tend to promote fat storage. So for fat loss it's better to avoid insulin in combo with hgh.

Now with that said, I've done a lot of dangerous and stupid things in my life but I would never mess with insulin. I'm not judging others, and certainly it has a role for pro BB's. I just don't think the benefits outweigh the risks for the average AAS user.

To the OP, using 1 of 2 units per day is probably not a big deal but eating a meal then would probably have the same effect in regards to insulin secretion. Just compensate with less intake at other times, or extra cardio, if your goal is fat loss. Do you mind if I ask, does the injectable carnitine help for fat loss? I don't want to hijack your thread, so do you mind if I send u a PM about this?

[AnabolicDoc]

I think an ideal hgh regimen for fat loss should include clen and more importantly T3. You can also add a light dose of test, about 250mg per week. This regimen should allow for accelerated fat loss with LBM retention, assuming appropriate diet and exercise. Also if you're using pharm grade hgh (nothing against generics), I think 1 to 2 units daily is enough for fat loss. You may need more if using non-pharm grade.

[briansvk]

Well first of all.. There is really no need for slin for fatloss, BUT it can be very beneficial if used properly. But I have managed to get sub 5%BF with HGH, T4, clen combo... Of course diet and cardio...

On the other hand.. 1-2IU of slin is very low dose. Some individuals can pin this without any carbs just to get to ketosis fast with little risk of hypo, of course this is really not for someone who doesn't know his body reactions VERY VERY WELL! But the main reason for doing this is NOT FATLOSS, but anabolics effects of slin which are used to preserve as much muscle mass as possible. Slin itself wont do anything for fatloss.

I did not try this myself, but if I would, at first I would use 4-5g carbs/IU slin and try to tapper down of course with glucose and BG meter always in my hand.

[human project]

In my experience with slin I always gain bf when I first start my cycle but for some reason when I run longer 6-8wk slin cycles it seems I actually start to loose bf and water retention in the last few weeks. I've herd this be the case for other bodybuilders too

[fm2002]

Slin itself is not used for fat loss. Injectable Carnitine is. In order to get the Carnitine into the muscle membrane Insulin must be present. There are 2 ways to achieve this. Both have to be done in close proximity of injecting the Carnitine.

1] minimum intake of 75g of simple carbs or sugar [your own body produces insulin to combat the onslaught of carbs/sugar]
2] 1-2 iu's of injected insulin [the choice I prefer]

Here's an excerpt from a thread started on another forum from DAT.

[A highly bioavailable form of L-Carnitine that if used together with insulin will activate a "switch" that will reduce carbohydrate oxidation and increases fat oxidation in contracting muscle, reduce fatigue, reduce muscle glycolysis and increase glycogen storage during periods that are almost always reserved for carbohydrate oxidation.

This is a little known protocol using injectable L-Carnitine and insulin (exogenous or endogenous) that immediately (or subsequently) enables the regulation of muscle fuel selection in favor of utilizing fats.]

The article is much longer, but don't think DAT would appreciate a cut and paste.

FYI - for those of you using Carnitine powder or such if you are not using the sugar/carb or injectable insulin with it YOU ARE WASTING YOUR MONEY.

[AnabolicDoc]

In regards to your posts, if your goal is fat loss you want to minimize insulin use. Your 1 to 2 units per day with L-Carnitine is not significant. But significant amounts will cause fat retention even with GH. Have you seen how fat these pro BB's get in the off season? Part of the reason is insulin use along with excessive food intake. You can't use insulin without eating proportionately, therefore with our without GH insulin well cause fat storage (or hypoglycemic coma and possible death if you don't eat enough).

What is your l-carnitine schedule?

[M302_Imola]

I've been using a fatloss protocol consisting of peps (GHRP/GHRH), 100mcg T4, injectable L-Carnitine, 2iu slin, and cpwo (carbless pwo) for about 3 weeks now, and I'm losing a substantial amount of fat each week. You can lose weight with small doses of slin. As for my pwo protocol, here it is: workout and then do 20-30 mins LISS cardio, immediately after I pin 2iu slin (humalog) and 100mcg each GHRP/GHRH. I go ahead and have a 50/50 whey/casein blend protein shake (only 2g trace amount of carbs) right after injections. 10 mins later I inject Carnitine (I loaded on 12ml (500mg/ml) the 1st week and now I'm running 6ml/week maintenance dose). My workouts normally finish around 6:30pm and I stay carbless until the next morn (6:00 am)...I then carbup for my evening workout again on workout days. Anyhow, hope this helps...if you have anymore questions you can pm me if you would like. If you have never used slin be careful with staying carbless after your injection and never inject more than 2iu while staying carbless. Always have glucose tabs on hand in case you have hypo symptoms. I don't normally go hypo as some of the protein from my whey/casein shake will eventually convert over to glucose through gluconeogenesis.

[Granovich]

never heard of using insulin to lose fat

[Granovich]

I've been using a fatloss protocol consisting of peps (GHRP/GHRH), 100mcg T4, injectable L-Carnitine, 2iu slin, and cpwo (carbless pwo) for about 3 weeks now, and I'm losing a substantial amount of fat each week. You can lose weight with small doses of slin. As for my pwo protocol, here it is: workout and then do 20-30 mins LISS cardio, immediately after I pin 2iu slin (humalog) and 100mcg each GHRP/GHRH. I go ahead and have a 50/50 whey/casein blend protein shake (only 2g trace amount of carbs) right after injections. 10 mins later I inject Carnitine (I loaded on 12ml (500mg/ml) the 1st week and now I'm running 6ml/week maintenance dose). My workouts normally finish around 6:30pm and I stay carbless until the next morn (6:00 am)...I then carbup for my evening workout again on workout days. Anyhow, hope this helps...if you have anymore questions you can pm me if you would like. If you have never used slin be careful with staying carbless after your injection and never inject more than 2iu while staying carbless. Always have glucose tabs on hand in case you have hypo symptoms. I don't normally go hypo as some of the protein from my whey/casein shake will eventually convert over to glucose through gluconeogenesis.

WOW that was really good read
thank you!!!

[fm2002]

I've been using a fatloss protocol consisting of peps (GHRP/GHRH), 100mcg T4, injectable L-Carnitine, 2iu slin, and cpwo (carbless pwo) for about 3 weeks now, and I'm losing a substantial amount of fat each week. You can lose weight with small doses of slin. As for my pwo protocol, here it is: workout and then do 20-30 mins LISS cardio, immediately after I pin 2iu slin (humalog) and 100mcg each GHRP/GHRH. I go ahead and have a 50/50 whey/casein blend protein shake (only 2g trace amount of carbs) right after injections. 10 mins later I inject Carnitine (I loaded on 12ml (500mg/ml) the 1st week and now I'm running 6ml/week maintenance dose). My workouts normally finish around 6:30pm and I stay carbless until the next morn (6:00 am)...I then carbup for my evening workout again on workout days. Anyhow, hope this helps...if you have anymore questions you can pm me if you would like. If you have never used slin be careful with staying carbless after your injection and never inject more than 2iu while staying carbless. Always have glucose tabs on hand in case you have hypo symptoms. I don't normally go hypo as some of the protein from my whey/casein shake will eventually convert over to glucose through gluconeogenesis.

The only thing I would question about your timing is I've been told to inject the Carnitine first than wait say 15 minutes for the slin. The Carnitine needs a head start. Especially if you are using Humalog which I think is only active for 2 hours. I'm pretty much using everything you are just timed differently. I do my hgh as soon as I wake up. Than I workout in the afternoon, PWO inject Carnitine, 15 minutes later 2iu slin than drink my protein shake. Than I wait at least 4 hours [time for my humulin r to clear] to eat. If i wanted to go w/o eating until the next morning one could really shed some weight, but that's a bit risky for me.

[M302_Imola]

WOW that was really good read
thank you!!!

No problem...glad you enjoyed it!

The only thing I would question about your timing is I've been told to inject the Carnitine first than wait say 15 minutes for the slin. The Carnitine needs a head start. Especially if you are using Humalog which I think is only active for 2 hours. I'm pretty much using everything you are just timed differently. I do my hgh as soon as I wake up. Than I workout in the afternoon, PWO inject Carnitine, 15 minutes later 2iu slin than drink my protein shake. Than I wait at least 4 hours [time for my humulin r to clear] to eat. If i wanted to go w/o eating until the next morning one could really shed some weight, but that's a bit risky for me.

You bring up a good point on injecting the L-Carn 10-15 mins before my slin, but I forgot to mention that I'm pinning the humalog IM so that will speed up the peak timing and duration of the slin. Yes the slin is probably active for 2-3 hrs. when pinning humalog IM...should peak around the 20 min mark so I figure it's shoving the L-Carn into the mitochondria at that point and will continue shoving it for some odd mins after the peak...at that point the slin has done its job and the carn can work it's magic. Why are you waiting 4 hours after your initial protein shake to eat as this is a critical time to force more protein into the cells for repair and growth. You can eat protein while the slin is still active just to try avoid all fats. To be honest, waiting 4 hours to eat after your slin injection and protein shake is very risky as well...I would think even running the vacuum around the house (aka the smallest activity) could cause you to go hypo. Excess protein will help you not go hypo and be of benefit as well.

[fm2002]

No I'm shooting slin and immediately after drinking my shake. Soon will be switching to Humolog. The quicker in especially out of insulin is best.

[M302_Imola]

No I'm shooting slin and immediately after drinking my shake. Soon will be switching to Humolog. The quicker in especially out of insulin is best.

Yes I understand that but then after your slin and protein shake you're waiting 4 hours before you eat again? If so, I wouldn't advise this...this is the time when you should be consuming a good amount of protein (no fat though). And yes, Humalog is the $hit...quick in and out.

[fm2002]

Yes I understand that but then after your slin and protein shake you're waiting 4 hours before you eat again? If so, I wouldn't advise this...this is the time when you should be consuming a good amount of protein (no fat though). And yes, Humalog is the $hit...quick in and out.

First thanks for the advice ! I hear what you are saying about NOT eating. Been told the same thing on another forum. It hasn't been an issue for me. Usually PWO I just chill out. Just watch TV or read a book and sometimes snack on some peanuts.

What kind of protein would you recommend ?

[M302_Imola]

First thanks for the advice ! I hear what you are saying about NOT eating. Been told the same thing on another forum. It hasn't been an issue for me. Usually PWO I just chill out. Just watch TV or read a book and sometimes snack on some peanuts.

What kind of protein would you recommend ?

I don't know how you just chill out pwo...I'm hungry as a horse! lol Here's my protocol: workout then pin slin and peps, wait about 10 mins and then have a 50g protein shake (consisting of half whey and half casein), 1 hour later I have a 8 oz. grilled chicken breast, two hours later I have a casein shake with some efa's before bed.

[human project]

I think an ideal hgh regimen for fat loss should include clen and more importantly T3. You can also add a light dose of test, about 250mg per week. This regimen should allow for accelerated fat loss with LBM retention, assuming appropriate diet and exercise. Also if you're using pharm grade hgh (nothing against generics), I think 1 to 2 units daily is enough for fat loss. You may need more if using non-pharm grade.

Do you think t3 is more important then taking t4?? How much do you recommend for 6-8ius of hgh a day

[briansvk]

Do you think t3 is more important then taking t4?? How much do you recommend for 6-8ius of hgh a day

T3 has totally different significance when taking with HGH. T4 is necessary with HGH if you wanna get full potential of it. But not because of fat loss, but because it will be converted to T3 in the body. And actually the conversion itself is so important. This is a very good article explaining everything about thyroid and HGH topic (cant add link so I just copied some important parts):

Interestingly, the hypothalamus isn’t the only place where SS is contained; the thyroid gland also contains Somatostatin-producing cells. This is of interest to us, because in the case of the thyroid, it’s been noted that certain hormones which were previously thought only to govern GH secretion can also influence thyroid hormone output as well. SS can directly act to inhibit TSH secretion or it may act on the hypothalamus to inhibit TRHsecretion. So when you add GH into your body from an outside source, you are triggering the body into releasing SS, because your body no longer needs to produce its own supply of GH…and unfortunately, the release of SS can also inhibit TSH, and therefore limit the amount of T4 your body produces.

In addition, as IGF-I production isincreased in the hypothalamus after T3 administration and T3 may participate in IGF-1 mediated negative feedback of GH by triggeringeither increased somatostatin tone and/or decreased GHRH production (6). IGF, interestingly, has the ability to mediate some of T3’s effects independent of GH, but not to the same degree GH can (7.) In fact, IGF-I production isincreased in the hypothalamus after T3, administration it may plausibly participate in negative feedback by triggeringeither increased somatostatin tone and/or decreased GHRH production.So we know that GH lowers T4 (more about this in a sec), but an increase in T3 upregulates GH receptors (8) as well as IGF-1 receptors (9,10).
As can be previously stated, and due to the ability of GH to convert inactive T4 into active T3, GH administration in healthy athletes shows us an entirely predicatble increase in mean free T3 (fT3), and a decrease in mean free T4 (fT4)levels.(11)



As you can see, T3 levels are directly correlative to GH gene transcription. The scientists who conducted the study which provided the graph above concluded that the amount of T3 present is a regulatory factor on how much GH gene transcription actually occurs. And gene transcription is what actually gives us the effects from GH. This last fact really seems to shed some light on why we need T3 levels to be supraphysiological if we’re going to be using supraphysiological levels of GH, right? Otherwise, the GH we’re using is going to be limited by the amount of T3 our body produces. However, since we’re taking GH, and it is converting more T4 into T3, T4 levels are lowered substantially, and this is the problem with GH. and may actually be THE limiting factor on GH…if we assume that at least some of GH’s effects are enhanced by thyroid hormone, and specifically T3, then what we are looking at is the GH that has been injected is being limited by a lack of T3. But that doesn’t make sense, because if we use T3 + GH, we get a decrease in the anabolic effect of GH.

Additional T3 is not all that’s needed here. What’s needed is the actual conversion process of T4-T3, and the deiodinase presence and activity that it involves. This is because Local 5′-deiodination of l-thyroxine (T4) to active the thyroid hormone 3,3′,5-tri-iodothyronine (T3) is catalyzed by the two 5′-deiodinase enzymes (D1 and D2). These enzymes not only “create” T3 out of T4, but actually regulates various T(3)-dependent functions in many tissues including the anterior pituitary and liver. So when there is an excess of T3 in the body, but normal levels of T4, the body’s thyroid axis sends a negative feedback signal., and produces less (D1 and D2) deiodinase, but more of the D3 type, which signals the cessation of the T4-T3 conversion process, and is inhibitory of many of the synergistic effects that T3 has! Remember, Type 3 iodothyronine deiodinase (D3) is the physiologic INACTIVATOR of thyroid hormones and their effects (13)and is well known to have independent interaction with growth factors (which is what GH and IGF-1 are).(14) This is because with adequate T4 and excess T3, (D1 and D2) deiodinase is no longer needed for conversion of T4 into T3, but levels of D3 deiodinase will be elevated. When there is less of the first two types of deidinase, it would seem that the T3 which has been converted to T4 can not exert it’s protein sparing (anabolic effects), as those first two types are responsible for mediation of many of the effects T3 has on the body. This seems to be one of the ways deiodinase contributes to anabolism in the presence of other hormones.

In other words, if we have enough to GH in our body aid in supraphysiological conversion of T4 into T3, but we already have the too much (exogenous) T3, the GH is not going to be converting any excess T4 into T3 after a certain point- which would be a limiting factor in GH’s anabolic effects, when coupled with the act that we’ve allowed the D3 enzyme to inhibit the T3/GH synergy that is necessary.

So what are we doing when we add T3 to GH? We’re effectively shutting down the conversion pathway that is responsible for some of GH’s effects! And what would we be doing if we added in T4 instead of T3? You got it- we’d be enhancing the pathway by allowing the GH we’re using to have more T4 to convert to T3, thus giving us more of an effect from the GH we’re taking. Adding T4 into our GH cycles will actually allow more of the GH to be used effectively!

So we want elevated T3 levels when we take GH, or we won’t be getting ANYWHERE NEAR the full anabolic effect of our injectable GH without enough T3. And now we know that not only do we need the additional T3, but we actually want the CONVERSION process of T4 into T3 to take place, because it’s the presence of those mediator enzymes that will allow the T3 to be synergistic with GH, instead of being inhibitory as is seen when T3 is simply added to a GH cycle. And remember, we don’t only want T3 levels high, but we want types 1 and 2 deiodinase to get us there- and when we take supplemental T3, that just doesn’t happen…all that happens is the type 3 deiodinase enzyme shows up and negates the beneficial effects of the T3 when we combine it with GH.

To your question about dosage... As stated from the article above.. How much T4 will be converted into T3 is HGH dosage dependent. But of course, there is no conversion cart for example you need 50mcg t4 for every 2IU of GH, no... I suggest to use 100-200mcg T4 with GH. I was using 100mcg/day and I think it was enough. Of course everyone is different, so... And you may need more with GH dosage around 10IU/day (I was using up to 7IU/day) but I don't think anyone would need more than 200/daily... But remember there is no reason to take too high dosages of T4. The body will convert into T3 only the required amount regulated by negative feedback mechanisms. So if your body converts only 50cmg you will get the same results with supplementing 100mcg or 400mcg...

[danp]

Stay away from insulin for two reasons. 1. Lack of experience using it. You can make yourself a diabetic. 2. Insulin in conjunction with hgh is more for muscle growth. Hgh by itself will help with body fat but it will take months to notice.

[danp]

You should get periodic basic metabolic panel and fasting blood sugar testing to check your glucose levels during your insulin use.

[M302_Imola]

You should get periodic basic metabolic panel and fasting blood sugar testing to check your glucose levels during your insulin use.

Always a good idea when using slin!