so is there any non fake gh left.

[4linked]

So is the only way to get real gh to get it from a pharmacy? Just seems like everybody gets scamed or can't tell between peptides and gh

[tdoe11]

Just like anything else you can find pharma products. It does take some effort though, and will more likely than not cost quite a bit of bread. Don't anyone pm me I don't know where to tell you to go

[4linked]

Iv given up lol it just seems like too much of a chance to get screwed

[pavlenko]

I would say that whoever is deep enough competitively into this bodybuilding sport knows where to get real HGH.

[lovbyts]

Ive spent far to much trying to find it over the years and gave up quite a while ago. Only way I will go anymore is via RX

[Angel of death]

I would say that whoever is deep enough competitively into this bodybuilding sport knows where to get real HGH.

This. A couple years ago my connect got me some real genotropin because I wouldn't even try his generics. This guy is into competitive bodybuilding and all his friends / gym buddies compete. Everything else he has is real. After the genotropin ran out (and fairly recently) against my better judgment, I started on this dudes' generic grey top hgh. About a month and a half in at 3.3ius per day and based on my experiences with hgh I can say that this stuff is real. I've had fakes, I've had real stuff, I've had stuff I was on the fence about. But this stuff is real. And if nothing else, tells me it is possible to get real generic hgh.

[PT]

I have nutropin pens and Sereno kits. There both awesome but the 18ius vials in the kits confuse me sometime because I got so used to 10iu vials. Those things are like gold to me so I better not wake up to a pm asking if I want to part with any

[ScotchGuard02]

The Chinese bluetop have been hammered pretty hard on this forum. I completely agree that there are a TON of fake HGH coming out of China. I have done a lot of research and found a good source that I've been using for the last, going on 7 years. The quality is about 40% to to 50% of pharma but the main thing is that it works. I just can't afford pharma so I continue to use bluetop out of China.

[marcus300]

Its huge at the moment and what's been happening over the last 12 months is seeing that the underground have caught onto the old generic crap there is a huge supply of pharm grade gh knocking around from the source what sell the generics!! now the only trouble is I can go tomorrow and buy a 1000 boxes of geno pens and get an endless supply of them. So what does this tell you do these so called source suddenly have a direct link to pharm grade which is cheap or have they started to fake pharm grade to fool the under ground yet again????? I know many guys who have purchased these so called pharm grade gh's what suddenly appear and to be honest it took me years to get across what they were doing with the generis so do I really want to be battling telling people something they don't want to hear!! Buy some and try it and see how things turn out over the next 12 months and decide for yourself

[marcus300]

I would say that whoever is deep enough competitively into this bodybuilding sport knows where to get real HGH.

Strange how you always come up when the discussion relates to finding hgh !!

[Rick Kane]

I just can't afford pharma so I continue to use bluetop out of China.

I'm in the same boat. Btw, if that really is you in your avatar, you a BMF!

I was fortunate enough to use pharms gh the last two years but this year I just can't afford. I've returned to generics at 4ius/d and hoping for the best.
I've seen bloods from a couple of trusted members with igf in the 400-500 on 5ius while using this product. I'm waiting a couple of months before I test. I've seen plenty of serum tests for these generics all in the high 20's and low 30's but I don't really care about serums. As most of us know, although not an exact science, IGF levels are much better at gauging legitimacy.

[thisAngelBites]

I've returned to generics at 4ius/d and hoping for the best.
I've seen bloods from a couple of trusted members with igf in the 400-500 on 5ius while using this product. I'm waiting a couple of months before I test. I've seen plenty of serum tests for these generics all in the high 20's and low 30's but I don't really care about serums. As most of us know, although not an exact science, IGF levels are much better at gauging legitimacy.

How do the bloods compare to those who are just taking IGF-1?

And I think there is reason to be concerned with generics and not just that it's potentially money for nothing.

The making of the GH is not the hard part of recombinant GH - it's the quality control: removing e coli toxins, protein folding problems (which it's thought can stimulate auto immunity to your endogenous GH production), and subsequent neurodegenerative diseases (each of which I have looked at all have protein aggregate problems). I don't know everything about all this, but I know enough to be concerned. I've been meaning to write up a post with details and links to the studies, maybe I'll move it up the to-do list.

[Rick Kane]

How do the bloods compare to those who are just taking IGF-1?

I don't know how they compare but it's not IGF. IGF will make you sleepy, hungry and strong pumps in the gym almost immediately that's why a lot pin pre-workout.
I've known these guys off the boards for well over a decade. One of them chooses to run generics along with pharma. He has no connection to the products and I see no reason to believe he would mislead me.

And I think there is reason to be concerned with generics and not just that it's potentially money for nothing.
I agree

The making of the GH is not the hard part of recombinant GH - it's the quality control: removing e coli toxins, protein folding problems (which it's thought can stimulate auto immunity to your endogenous GH production), and subsequent neurodegenerative diseases (each of which I have looked at all have protein aggregate problems). I don't know everything about all this, but I know enough to be concerned. I've been meaning to write up a post with details and links to the studies, maybe I'll move it up the to-do list.

I would be interested in what you come up with. I wrote about these concerns on 2012 when I stopped using generics. Occasionally I have the opportunity to talk to a Doctor who owns a peptide co and researches treatment for wasting diseases. I asked him about generics and aside from the obvious that you don't know what's in it, he stated that unless someone is purposely trying to poison you with peptides that can harm you, if the 191 sequence, folds or anything is wrong with the chain your body will not recognize it and it will be eliminated. He also mentioned something about Isotopes but that's too complicated and I didn't really understand what he meant. This why the serum test can't be trusted. The molecular weight can be correct but with zero bioavailability.

Responses in bold.
In case anyone is wondering I have thought about asking him to test a generic for me. I'm afraid to ask and lose him as a social friend. Besides, It's hard enough to talk to him in a social setting without others walking up and interrupting.

[thisAngelBites]

I think that idea that they would just not be bioavailable is theoretical and (I suspect) out of date, although it is clear that no one understands exactly what happens in each situation and why whatever it is that occurs occurs. This is very much the infancy of this part of biology.

Proteins that are not "right" (meaning misfolded or are atypical isomers <-- that's probably what your doctor friend was talking about, etc.) can form aggregates and there is some evidence that in some cases, the aggregates are toxic to cells. There is also some evidence they can disrupt signaling in cells between endoplasmic reticulum and golgi bodies. They can also form fibrils, and you can end up with plaques - not unlike what happens in the brain in alzheimer's.

I will try and get the details typed in, and to collate the studies I have looked at so you can have a look and a think.

[Rick Kane]

I think that idea that they would just not be bioavailable is theoretical and (I suspect) out of date, although it is clear that no one understands exactly what happens in each situation and why whatever it is that occurs occurs. This is very much the infancy of this part of biology.

Proteins that are not "right" (meaning misfolded or are atypical isomers <-- that's probably what your doctor friend was talking about, etc.) can form aggregates and there is some evidence that in some cases, the aggregates are toxic to cells. There is also some evidence they can disrupt signaling in cells between endoplasmic reticulum and golgi bodies. They can also form fibrils, and you can end up with plaques - not unlike what happens in the brain in alzheimer's.

I will try and get the details typed in, and to collate the studies I have looked at so you can have a look and a think.

Maybe how I paraphrased what he said to me sounded theoretical and possibly out of date as you put it. However, I don't think anything that comes out of this mans mouth would fall into those categories.
The man has a PHD, co-fonder and Chief Scientific Officer with published work in pier reviewed journals.
Just wanted to clarify since "friend who's a doctor and owns a Biotcech company" as I put it is kind of vague.

You seem to know more about this than I do. If you have a specific question I can ask him the next time I see him.

[thisAngelBites]

Hey Rick, it's probably just me, but someone having a PhD and being involved in peer review doesn't impress me in and of itself.

I evaluate people's reliability on the strength of their thought process and how well they evaluate the empirical. I'm sure this sounds arrogant, but I don't mean it that way. One of my interests is epistemology, so I very much care about how people think they know things, and critical thinking is where it's at, for me.

Getting a doctorate requires quite a bit of commitment and hard work and I don't know anyone with a doctorate who's an idiot - but many of them (and a large proportion of my friends and acquaintances have them) are just nothing extraordinary, in terms of brain power. A few have amazing intellects, but I know enough of them that I judge on a case by case basis.

Also, most doctorates are very focussed and narrow programmes of study, so at best they guarantee a pretty narrow band of specialisation, and I would want to know what exactly their dissertation was in order to get a sense of what they know.

Additionally, science and medicine in particular are many ways in their respective infancies, where the information completely changes within a short period of time. As an example; I took a neurobio class in the middle 80s, and then another one in 2001 and it was literally night and day as to how much things had changed.

Another thing I take into account is how people are motivated. It's funny how having a financial interest in something can cloud someone's thinking. And that's not limited to peptide company owners. :-)

Secondly, peer review is a joke. There's a ton of fraud in medicine and peer review misses a lot of it. Recently there was a lovely case where some people got together, intentionally dry labbed/faked a bunch of research and submitted it to journals, several of whom accepted it for publication. Peer review may be the system in place at the moment to try to ensure scientific integrity, but it does a piss poor job, so I wouldn't be too impressed by it (I don't want to throw it away - it is far better than nothing, but it's not the holy grail).

Lastly, the research is full of problems with protein aggregates, especially in the brain (and GH crosses the b/b barrier) and it is considered a very serious problem that is not well understood. To just dismiss that seems odd to me (I understand he offered you some kind of explanation and didn't just dismiss it - but to be honest, I don't think there is a person in the world who has the answers to these questions, so to not acknowledge seems odd to me).

I got your PM and I will put together some brief compilation of the research and post it so anyone who is interested can have a look (I'm having a dinner party Saturday and so it will not be done before then!).

[Sgt. Hartman]

If you look at what each brand of gh is indicated for it can give you an idea of how readily available it should be on the black market.

This is just from memory so somebody correct me if I'm wrong but genotropin, humatrope, nutropin, norditropin, saizen are all prescribed for children/adults who are growth hormone deficient or children who are not growing properly due to various conditions. The market shouldn't be flooded with these brands simply due to the fact that these conditions are not that common. I'm not saying you can't get real genotropin, you can, but it shouldn't be on every gear web site because it's just not that readily available.

But serostim is the only gh (that I know of) prescribed to prevent and reverse muscle wasting in AIDS patients, which unfortunately is very common. I'm sure serostim is faked as well but there's a whole lot more of it out there than any other brand.

[PT]

Very good point. All my sero inserts talk only about aids and not children and the nutropin is the opposite. I actually read the entire sero insert a few weeks ago and was surprised.

As for real and fake hgh there are tons of fakes. I have seen fake generics and fake pharm brands. Anyone selling pharm brand hgh online is almost definitely selling fakes. As for generic, i know two people who sell a ton and both have great reputations. I know professional bodybuilders from other boards that swear by the generics.
I have both now and have run both in the past and had similar results. Of course I go a little lower on the pharm dose to cut back on the water retention but that's it.
With that said, I recently got a bad batch of hgh from a person I never dealt with before. What I felt from that I wouldn't wish on anyone here so be careful. Never buy from a website and make sure the person you buy from has a very good reputation

[thisAngelBites]

If you look at what each brand of gh is indicated for it can give you an idea of how readily available it should be on the black market.

This is just from memory so somebody correct me if I'm wrong but genotropin, humatrope, nutropin, norditropin, saizen are all prescribed for children/adults who are growth hormone deficient or children who are not growing properly due to various conditions. The market shouldn't be flooded with these brands simply due to the fact that these conditions are not that common. I'm not saying you can't get real genotropin, you can, but it shouldn't be on every gear web site because it's just not that readily available.

But serostim is the only gh (that I know of) prescribed to prevent and reverse muscle wasting in AIDS patients, which unfortunately is very common. I'm sure serostim is faked as well but there's a whole lot more of it out there than any other brand.

I never thought about this, but it's a fab observation. Most of the stuff I see sources selling is not serostim, and along the lines of what I was questioning before about how much legit stuff can possibly go missing. In terms of children with GH deficiency, it's such a small market that I'd bet the sources' products where it's claimed it's legit exceeds the amount of authentic pharma product actually being used by physician's patients. But I guess sources can defy the laws of science. :-)

[Rick Kane]

HGH is a multibillion dollar industry and there are not enough short statue children and HIV+ to support the numbers. Look it up. Numbers don't lie. I read a breakdown of US hgh sales and the number of children and hiv+ people using was ridiculously high. Where are the "bodies"?

I believe the products are being pushed on the black market with the knowledge and cooperation of execs.

I believe it was data from 2012 but Humatrope sales were $650,000,000
Humatrope 2011 $425,000,000 <-----from investor charts
Nutropin 2008 $350,000,000 <------from investor charts
Genotropin?
Nordi?
Serostim?
Tevtropin?
Omnitrope?

This data is old and I can only imagine what sales of HGH are like now.

I don't know about online sources though. They may or may not have authentic products. I wouldn't trust them and IMO gh is too expensive to take that leap of faith.

[Rick Kane]

I never thought about this, but it's a fab observation. Most of the stuff I see sources selling is not serostim, and along the lines of what I was questioning before about how much legit stuff can possibly go missing. In terms of children with GH deficiency, it's such a small market that I'd bet the sources' products where it's claimed it's legit exceeds the amount of authentic pharma product actually being used by physician's patients. But I guess sources can defy the laws of science. :-)

Just look at how much Humatrope Eli Lilly sold.
https://investor.lilly.com/releaseDe...leaseID=822044

[PT]

There is a kid who lives up the road from me on hgh. He is 11 years old and appears to be normal height. My neighbor found the box with the prescription blowing through his yard on garbage day

[thisAngelBites]

And of course many of the kids on it are on subsidised programmes because their families can't afford to pay, or their insurance doesn't pay enough of the cost due to policy limits. I'm on a board with a bunch of parents and many of them have filled out forms about their financial situation and quite a few of them get assistance from the manufacturers.

[PT]

You don't even want to get me started on that subject because it's drives me crazy. With that said, fortunately these people are definitely one of them