HGH VETS: What Happens to HGH when Insulin is Present?

[JuliusPleaser]

So I posted a thread earlier where I decided to stop hgh after being on consistent daily dosages for probably over 8 months.

I used generic kits; ranging from elitropins to meditropin to grey tops. The latter two have been tested on boards to be very high quality; the former elitropin was a great band a few years ago which I had in stock.

I was taking 5iu to start, then 4iu, then 3iu, then finally 2.5iu, being that I figured longer the better, but this tapper down happed over months time.

I started to Intermittent Fast before I jumped on gh (I mean literally fast, not even taking amino acids during my workouts) so I figured I would take the shots mid-day not to interfere with my natural pulse in the am when fasted 16 hrs. The goal here is to maximize fat loss, since apparently while fasted fat burning is at an all-time high.

Anyway to get to the point, I have a few kits left and I figured why not blast through them at 5iu thinking maybe I didn't get the best out of it while IF or whatever. So the question is this:

If I am intermittent fasting to increase natural HGH, but if I am using exogenous HGH, is it more logical to skip fasting totally and just shoot HGH in the am so long it is at a higher dosage than what my body would produce?

The reason I started IF was to get the fat loss benefits and also I worked out in the AM so no point eating for me when my workouts are fine; also, I was under the impression that fat-burning is 'turned off' when insulin is raised when breaking a fast, but will this matter at all if you shooting exogenous HGH?

What happens to it when insulin is present? I know bodybuilders use HGH and Slin together, but I think that is for maximal growth rather than fat loss?

Thanks.

[GearHeaded]

insulin itself does not 'turn off' fat burning.. in fact plenty of bodybuilders use insulin at low dose prior to cardio to help induce fat burning (I practice this myself as well).
its the rise in blood sugar that can limit lipolysis. the release of insulin is secondary to that. insulin in the presence of low blood sugar can increase fat burning

HGH is naturally released when blood sugar is low. the most glucose dependent thing in our body is our brain, which can require nearly 600 calories per day. one theory on why HGH is released when our blood sugar is low (and often times when we are sleeping) is to keep the brain fed. how does it do this. the brain releases HGH, which will occupy receptor sites in muscle, adipose tissue, organs, etc.. when HGH is active the cells temporarily become insulin resistant, and unable to uptake glucose. Then our liver, sensing blood sugar is dropping to low, will release stored glucose into the blood stream. however this stored blood sugar will really only be able to feed the brain at this time because other tissues are occupied by HGH and will not be able to be 'fed' glucose. so the brain essentially releases HGH as a way to prioritize itself for glucose metabolism.
^ this is a theory I read a long time ago and just off the top of my head. not sure how accurate this is as am not going to go back and look at the studies I've read on it , as its just a passing point to this topic.

so to your concern-- HGH will temporarily make you insulin resistant. If you take high amounts of HGH throughout the day your blood sugars will run just as high as a diabetic. However, using HGH and insulin together will have synergistic effects in the liver and cause it to produce much more IGF1 then is normally/naturally possible. IGF does the opposite, it makes you insulin sensitive and will drop your blood sugar. this is one reason why HGH and Insulin go well together.

so , if your running HGH solo. I just recommend taking it in the morning fasted and doing a fasted workout. you'll get the most fat loss benefits using HGH that way, and being your not eating you won't need to worry about the temporary insulin resistance.

and if you want to save a TON of money, for what your doing all you really need to be running is HGH-Frag, which is HGH streamlined down at the cellular level to just its fat burning properties.

[JuliusPleaser]

Yes I have heard about frag but its a trust thing and whether it is effective or not and from what lab.

Right now I have kits left so I might as well use them; in your opinion, is doing IF and relying on my normal GH not as effective as taking HGH? If did decide to finish off my kits (Chinese generic) what does do you recommend? 5iu pre workout in the am? They are good quality for generics and came back testing high.

Just to clarify, I'm not just on GH, I'm also on TRT cyp 200mg and about to add Tren E 200mg this week while finishing off var.

Also, I actually have very potent IGF-1 that doesn't come from any American lab, in fact is comes from Israel. I ran it a palumbo style cycle for 3 months and was blown away by the results at only 10mcg on pre-workout, but I was eating carbs that time (now I'm not). Some claim that IGF-1 is nothing more than a glorified GDA and is a waste of money. What's your take on that, I still have some to take as well lol, so I need to use it regardless

I could combine both if I wanted to HGH and IGF-1, but I wanted to save IGF-1 for bulking phases.

I never tried insulin, nor do I think I'd want to.

[JuliusPleaser]

you there gearheaded ? lol

[GearHeaded]

just to clarify. your currently doing IF and doing your workouts fasted in the AM (not just cardio but lifting too) ? Then you have an eating window where you mainly consume what, protein or fats, are you on keto or carnivore ? And are you in a calorie deficit with this as well and trying to shed some more fat?

theres a couple different ways of going about this, I think your on the right track, just want to clear a few things up

as for IGF . yes there is legit IGF that does work out there. I prefer guys run it in between cycles or while cruising as a sort of bridge. Anabolics like Tren increase IGF plenty, no need run more IGF when on a heavy cycle. down time is best time to run it IMO

[JuliusPleaser]

I've been doing a lot of research on poliquin. He basically says counting calories is a waste of time and that one should just eat whole foods and train hard, focusing on building muscle and being athletic. He does not say you don't have to be in a deficit, but he is saying that a calorie is not just a calorie as IIFYM will claim; although we all know that a deficit is what ultimately causes fat loss. He says if you're not 10% bf, you don't' deserve carbs; so get lean enough eating fats, proteins, then you can have carbs. Someone who is doubt double sessions may need carbs, but someone like me doesn't. And i'm not 10% bf.

http://http://main.poliquingroup.com...oesnt_Wor.aspx

I'm basically full carnivore 5 days a week, then weekends I do refeeds or whatever, but I do IF everyday. My calories were I had set on MFP were 2300, which is a HUGE deficit for me. When I switched to carnivore, I realized I was getting weaker for some reason...Then I realize that being carnivore in the deficit of 2300, it was 45 to 55 ratio protein to fat, so 259g pro to 141 fat; of course there are some carbs from cheese or whatever small things, but then I realized the TEF of protein is reducing my protein calories by 25-30%, so doing 2300 counting calories on carnivore I was shrinking and getting weaker...so I was probably only consuming probably 2000 calories (after TEF burns off).

So now I took poloquins advice, stopped the calorie counting, ate more meat and even added a whey protein shake PWO, trained heavy and volume as he advices for dopamine dominate neurotransmitter types, and eat when I feel like it in my 8hr feeding window, 12pm - 8pm usually. I got stronger and my size came back in my arms which I had lost half inch lol.

Cardio I don't do other than weds; I do about an hr of various things: stepper, row machine, treadmill, for a total of 1hr.

My routine is fasted in the am:

Monday: Chest/Shoulders/abs

Tues: Back/calves

Weds : cardio

Thurs: Arms/ abs

Friday: Legs/ calves

Sat + Sun off.

My meals are :

1. PWO shake 12PM: 50g whey and 2 tblspoon peanutbutter

2. 3 whole eggs, 8oz of ground full fat turkey, 2 slices of 2% single cheese

3. 1 Ribeye (which is 1200-1500 calories itself) two slices of whole fat cheese

4. 8 oz of organic ground beef (80% lean) 2 piece of 2% cheese

Then I may have a spinach salad with dressing and 1 cup of cottage cheese.

I'm probably consuming 3k calories today, but all this protein is probably creating a deficit 30% itself, so basically why I think poloquins reasoning of no longer counting is necessary; and I am getting leaner doing this while getting stronger every week.

Friday after legs, I'll do a high carb day, where I take my family to Carrabba's to eat pasta and bread; on such a day I only eat twice. Saturday I'll go back to carnivore or whatever. I go by how I feel in regards to eating, but I eat what I posted above Mon-Friday, usually, and weekends I eat loosely but less calories for certain.

[GearHeaded]

I'm a fan of Charles Poliquin as well. he actually lives near me and I've been wanting to get in contact with him to possibly do a seminar at my gym..

so , being you're not eating much as far as carbs go , I guess you, according to Charles, have not "earned" your carbs yet huh not below say 12% body fat yet .. I'm joking with you, but yeah Charles likes to say you shouldn't be eating carbs until you've earned it.
of course he is pretty lean and still likes his steak and almonds or game meat and nuts with no carbs

I'll address the rest your post soon

[JuliusPleaser]

I'm basically almost the same leanness of that of my avatar, which was last year that was 201lb, but now I'm 220, so I guess I improved lol...but even then, doing IIFYM carb cycling, I never got rid of that small fat pouch on the bottom .

Def would like to look like yours lol.

[JuliusPleaser]

I just took a picture to compare, but ya I am bigger than my avatar actually; way thicker, quality muscle, but midsection not as small...

left is my avatar

middle is when I was taking IGF 1 and high carbs, veiny as fk and leaner than all 3

and right is a pic I literally took now. I also just ate 2 hrs ago... also this picture if farther from the mirror and i'm not shaven, but I'm way bigger for sure.

[JuliusPleaser]

Where you at gearheaded? Lol

[GearHeaded]

heres what I would do if I were you and wanting to continue moving forward with your current protocol.

do NOT take the HGH in the morning. use the IF and fasted morning workout as an opportunity to spike your own natural GH. I would however obtain some HGH-Frag and begin using that for your morning workouts, you'll still get a natty pulse of GH but also get added fat mobilization with the Frag in there (I have a lot of my clients using HGH frag for fasted morning workouts and it works great.. PM me if you need a good source for it).

Now, to help with the muscle growth and being you are on a light cycle of AAS, I would go ahead and start using 4iu per day of HGH. I would do 2iu with your first meal. Then I would do another 2iu about 6 hours later with another meal (but not too close to bed time).
If you want to amplify the GH effects even more, you could also add Mk-677 (a GH secretagogue) and dose 15mg right before going to bed along with 5mg of Melatonin (which will promote a larger GH pulse while sleeping).

you can think of your whole day and breaking it down into different 'windows of time', at some times of the day your in fat burning mode, at other times of the day your in anabolic mode. with the HGH, the anabolics, the high protein diet, you will be holding onto or even able to build muscle while also loosing body fat (the thermogenic effect of the protein will greatly enhance your situation as well).

your physique is solid and your making good progress and on the right track. do you do a lot of heavy compound movements ?

[JuliusPleaser]

Basically I altered Dorian's routine to add more volume and angles for muscle groups.

For example: I almost still do his exact HIT back routine but switch up exercises every week. Sometimes ill start with heavy pull-overs, other times yate-rows and save half-deads for last, or start will pulls-up and follow that with half-deads. No matter what order I do, or what day, I make sure I'm doing something hard to start off then compound, then isolation.

Every body part will start with heavy compound movements, then I will do isolation movements.

I've taken poloquins advice and do what he suggests for dopamine types; heavy and volume. I do a shit ton of both now and I love it.

So tomorrow ill do legs:

Squats 10 x 3
Leg Press 5 x 6
Straight-leg Deadlifts 5 x 6
Extension 5 x 6
Curls 5 x 6

Standing calf machine 5 x 6
Seated calves 5 x 6

The next week ill switch squats to presses first along with the reps.

I workout instinctively too, so sometimes I will play around and do less reps or more reps, but generally I follow these guidelines.

I also diet instinctively; today was arm day but I had a long day without eating because I had to do a radio show, so I decided today will be my cheat day and ill go back to carnivore tomorrow. I ate carbs today and I got lethargic and now I'm over heating lol.

So this bring up another questions which I guess was my intial one; when GH is high, will I be 'fat burning' so long as I am not eating, or does even exogenous gh burn fat if even I'm not fasted. In other words, each of the shots of GH is that acting like I would be fasted even though i'm not?

I'll PM now. Much appreciated.

[GearHeaded]

well the reason I asked about heavy training is that it shows in your physique.

as for HGH and fat burning. there are some conflicting things on how exactly HGH helps burn fat. one extremely simple way to think about it is that HGH while active and bound to a cells receptor sites keeps that cell temporarily unable to utilize glucose for energy (it becomes insulin resistant), and so now that cell has to use fat for energy. This is also why HGH can cause elevated blood sugars.
another way, is that it prevents the formation of fatty acids in the first place as well as binding to fatty tissue and releasing it into the blood stream as free form fatty acids (where they can be used as fuel, then oxidized by the liver and turned into ATP).
and the last way is simply that HGH can increase you metabolic rate.

so if you take all those things into consideration, GH is going to be 'burning fat' no matter what situation you put yourself in , fasted or fed.

the reason I told you to take in your exogenous HGH with meals is to prevent fat gain from the meal and induce fat burning to fuel the energy its going to take your body to digest all that protein (yep, eating itself becomes an opportunity to burn fat, especially on the carnivore diet

[JuliusPleaser]

Yes from the research I understand, when one becomes fat adapted, they burn more fat but they also store more fat; on the other hand, when one becomes a carb burner, the store less fat but burn off less fat.

Btw, how much gh-frag would I have to take in the am?

[GearHeaded]

Yes from the research I understand, when one becomes fat adapted, they burn more fat but they also store more fat; on the other hand, when one becomes a carb burner, the store less fat but burn off less fat.

Btw, how much gh-frag would I have to take in the am?

250mcg to start, then ramp up to 500mcg. OR 250mcg for fasted workout, then 250mcg late in the day when your somewhat fasted but going to be active.

I'll personally shoot 250mcg if I'm going on a hike with my wife. it doesn't have to be just pre lift or pre cardio

[fiddlesticks]

I can absolutely attest to insulin being fat burning as opposed to storing. Anytime I've ran insulin I have been much leaner than otherwise... its a very powerful anoretic signal.

Insulin + peptides = far more potent anabolic than gh alone. I recall seeing blood work where someone's igf was 400 percent higher than before after he used only 2 iu of insulin for a few weeks. My personal experience using insulin plus hexarelin was pretty intense and very effective.

[lightitup]

I did the same method and had great results but was running Anabolics along with IF and GH, I also did HIIT twice a week for more of spike and body fat melted super fast but over time I felt like I got more resistant to the GH so came off it ....but I kept my IF and still seen results 2months after it, quick way to melt the fat for sure

[waltr64]

Did you use anything to help restart your natural GH like some Growth hormone-releasing peptide 6 (GHRP-6) ?

[ramacher]

GearHeaded,

I am running 1.2mg of Pfizer's Genotropin through my endocrinologist ED. I take all of it in shot prior to going to bed. From previous posts on this thread, I am also adding 5mg of Melatonin prior to bed as well.

I just picked some Humalog and want to incorporate some small amounts with my gh regiment. How exactly do I incorporate insulin into my daily schedule? Do I inject around my workout time, do I need to take a pre-workout shake like Waxi-Maze with it? Will that help with fat loss or muscle gain? I just know from reading and researching, insulin works synergistically with gh.

[GearHeaded]

GearHeaded,

I am running 1.2mg of Pfizer's Genotropin through my endocrinologist ED. I take all of it in shot prior to going to bed. From previous posts on this thread, I am also adding 5mg of Melatonin prior to bed as well.

I just picked some Humalog and want to incorporate some small amounts with my gh regiment. How exactly do I incorporate insulin into my daily schedule? Do I inject around my workout time, do I need to take a pre-workout shake like Waxi-Maze with it? Will that help with fat loss or muscle gain? I just know from reading and researching, insulin works synergistically with gh.

couple of things here--
I would NOT be taking exogenous HGH prior to bed (for bodybuilding purposes). This protocol is from the original prescribing of people who have GH deficiency, and the idea here was to provide exo HGH at the time the person would normally be producing their own HGH (during sleep).
however with a normal person with a normal pituitary, we can still produce our own natty HGH just fine and we do so mainly when we sleep . by injecting HGH prior to bed, we shut off this natural production (and thus limit ourselves). we want both natty production at night, and exogenous HGH at other times.
also , you don't need to take Melatonin with exogenous HGH.. however taking it with GHRH's and GH secretagogues prior to bed to induce natty GH production is a good idea.

The timing of your HGH is going to be dependent on your goals and your lifestyle. there are different protocols for if your cutting, bulking, using HGH for growth factors, using it solely as an anti-catabolic, using it with insulin , etc..

I can expound more if I know your goals and situation.. example, for HGH lipolytic effects, I prefer dosing HGH first thing in the morning with fasted cardio. for HGH anti-catabolic effects I prefer dosing it in the morning at a higher dose (5iu) with breakfast and exogenous insulin.. for growth factor usage and synergistic effects and IGF spike, I prefer pre or post (or both) workout with insulin and a cocktail of different nutrients.
I explain some of this further in my "insulin use for bodybuilding" thread.

as for you wanting to use insulin as well. there are many different options. I would start with the pre and post workout (you can do one or the other or both) protocols . example, post workout with your post workout nutrition which should consist of 30+ grams of whey isolate and 50g of high molecular weight carbohydrate (ie, fast acting carbs), and NO fat, and starting with only 5iu of insulin.
and again your HGH use is going to be dependent on some factors as well and can be used separate or as part of your insulin use. If your looking for that IGF spike then you'll use insulin and GH in the same window . some guys simply use insulin to mitigate HGH side effects, its really person dependent.


a lot more can be said about this and there is much more advanced protocols . but just using above as examples, would need more details to further help.

[ramacher]

Thanks for the reply back GearHeaded!

So evidently I do have a growth hormone deficiency. I was diagnosed having AGHD by my endocrinologist. Started at 0.3mg ED, then increased to 0.8mg ED, and finally now at 1.2mg ED, which is roughly 3.6 IU ED.

I am 28 years old, former collegiate football player, currently 6'2" 315 roughly 21.2% bf (got measured in a tank). I want to get down to 250ish. So to answer your question, I want to use it primarily for cutting, but couldn't it also be possible to gain some muscle as well? My diet is relatively strict with the macros all set. I don't know if 3.6IU ED will make me insulin resistant, but I was thinking of adding slin before my workout. I can pm you and maybe set up a consult if possible because I value your time. Thoughts?

[GearHeaded]

Thanks for the reply back GearHeaded!

So evidently I do have a growth hormone deficiency. I was diagnosed having AGHD by my endocrinologist. Started at 0.3mg ED, then increased to 0.8mg ED, and finally now at 1.2mg ED, which is roughly 3.6 IU ED.

I am 28 years old, former collegiate football player, currently 6'2" 315 roughly 21.2% bf (got measured in a tank). I want to get down to 250ish. So to answer your question, I want to use it primarily for cutting, but couldn't it also be possible to gain some muscle as well? My diet is relatively strict with the macros all set. I don't know if 3.6IU ED will make me insulin resistant, but I was thinking of adding slin before my workout. I can pm you and maybe set up a consult if possible because I value your time. Thoughts?

with that diagnosis at least your getting legit Pharma HGH.

couple of things
- using HGH at the lower dose end of the spectrum is going to be best for fat loss . however, if you want to put on some muscle too you can do that with proper training and diet independent of your HGH use. and putting on some muscle will help boost your metabolism and ultimately help with overall weight loss and body composition.

- as to blood sugar and insulin resistance , I would strongly advise going to wall-mart and picking up a 10$ blood sugar monitor and start keeping track of your morning fasted blood sugar as well as your post meal blood sugar. develop a base line and see if over time the HGH use is causing some amount of insulin resistance . and there are plenty of ways to mitigate this (not just through drugs , but diet techniques as well).
Keep in mind though, that while taking HGH your blood sugar can be slightly elevated and 'indicate' insulin resistance, but its not always insulin resistance thats going on, HGH has the effect of altering your metabolism away from using glucose as fuel and towards lipolysis (which will be shown as slightly higher blood sugar levels)..
anyhow at this stage I'd just get accustomed to starting to monitor your own blood sugar

- as for adding slin, when your goal is primarily weight loss, I would recommend a much different slin protocol then the one I give for pre and post workout slin usage for putting on muscle and size.. slin can be used for fat loss, muscle retention, and as an anti catabolic while dieting , but the technique is slightly different then the norm or some of what you read in my insulin use thread.
I can go over those techniques as well , but first I would really get on getting a blood glucose monitor and get started with that and get a baseline going.

yes feel free to PM me if you want more specific and detailed suggestions, happy to help

[Kay kay]

Great knowledge on hgh and slin gear! I’ve had lots of success with slin but haven’t used hgh yet sadly. Waiting until I can afford a solid dose of pharmacy consistently before jumping in... will probably pm you when that time comes to get my hgh slin protocol down if that’s okay?