Metformin - Is there a good protocol and is it really useful ?

[Slacker78]

Hello guys, even though the king of the anabolic stuff is the insulin, for the moment i would use metformin to give a light boost to my glucose metabolism. I would interested for some good protocol to use it at the best. I know it could be used pre and post workout more or less like slin.

Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

[tarmyg]

There is a study going on for longevity and they give them 850mg 2-times/day.

[Slacker78]

Yes tarmyg, thank you. I'm going to use pre and post workout to increase glucose uptake by muscle cells. I'm finding for a good protocol for the best use.

[GearHeaded]

Metformin does not work like insulin at all . you'll get no direct benefit from taking it around your workout like you would using insulin. Metformin lowers blood sugars 'over time' , by suppressing hepatic output of glucose (the liver stores glucose and then slowly releases it into the blood stream over time, Metformin limits this secretion of glucose into the blood stream, and the net result is lower over all blood sugar over time).

lower over all blood sugar over time (A1C) is what diabetics are seeking. and thats what Metformin does (which is also why it can be considered an anti aging drug being elevated blood sugars accelerate the aging process)..

Metformin "might" increase insulin sensitivity as well. but there is no clear evidence for this. and even if it did that would be an overall effect and not something that would benefit a workout in any way (your already super insulin sensitive when working out and post workout).
there is some other research being done out there looking at how Metformin may help lower overall glucose levels through some sort of interaction with gut biome as well. no conclusions have been made.


but in any case , Metformin will not help workouts in any way like insulin and does not work like insulin at all. looking for an insulin mimic or insulin secretagogue is going to be your best choice if driving glucose and nutreints intra and post workout is what your after (or simply exogenous insulin itself).


if your on HGH or other Growth Hormone peptides and your running high blood sugars all the time. then adding Metformin can be beneficial , mainly from a health aspect.
500mg with meal 1 and 500mg again with last meal before bed is an effective dose. the number one side effect from it is digestive stress and diarrhea .
taper down to just 500mg once per day if that happens.

also of note - Metformin is one of very few drugs that have been considered an actual anti aging drug by the world health organization. its something a great majority of people could benefit from taking the rest of their lives

[Slacker78]

Metformin does not work like insulin at all . you'll get no direct benefit from taking it around your workout like you would using insulin. Metformin lowers blood sugars 'over time' , by suppressing hepatic output of glucose (the liver stores glucose and then slowly releases it into the blood stream over time, Metformin limits this secretion of glucose into the blood stream, and the net result is lower over all blood sugar over time).

lower over all blood sugar over time (A1C) is what diabetics are seeking. and thats what Metformin does (which is also why it can be considered an anti aging drug being elevated blood sugars accelerate the aging process)..

Metformin "might" increase insulin sensitivity as well. but there is no clear evidence for this. and even if it did that would be an overall effect and not something that would benefit a workout in any way (your already super insulin sensitive when working out and post workout).
there is some other research being done out there looking at how Metformin may help lower overall glucose levels through some sort of interaction with gut biome as well. no conclusions have been made.


but in any case , Metformin will not help workouts in any way like insulin and does not work like insulin at all. looking for an insulin mimic or insulin secretagogue is going to be your best choice if driving glucose and nutreints intra and post workout is what your after (or simply exogenous insulin itself).


if your on HGH or other Growth Hormone peptides and your running high blood sugars all the time. then adding Metformin can be beneficial , mainly from a health aspect.
500mg with meal 1 and 500mg again with last meal before bed is an effective dose. the number one side effect from it is digestive stress and diarrhea .
taper down to just 500mg once per day if that happens.

also of note - Metformin is one of very few drugs that have been considered an actual anti aging drug by the world health organization. its something a great majority of people could benefit from taking the rest of their lives

Ok GearHeaded. I was thinking to use insulin ( in found in my Pharmacy Humulog ), but i'm afraid of use it; i've read all your answers in other sections and best practices to found the good ratio ( UI/Carbs grams ) to keep glucose in range of 80-115, but even with 20UI/day divided in pre and post workout, i'm not ready to use because i'm alone at home and i wouldn't get hypo which could me hurt.

I will use Met just before bed to limit glucose increasing during the sleep and give a benefit to shift a metabolism "boosting" to lipids as could be expected.

[Ashop]

I don't tolerate it well. Gives me explosive diarrhea and stomach distress.

[Slacker78]

I don't tolerate it well. Gives me explosive diarrhea and stomach distress.

Sometimes, the same happened to me, but at dosage higher than 1000mg/day. Below that threshold, didn't happen.

[HoldMyBeer]

Look into berberine

[Quester]

-Like GH said, Metformin doesn't have much application to bodybuilding, in fact, it is conta-indicated for muscle growth.
--An additional reason is that it modulates AMPK. This is both good and bad because it restores ATP but it also down-regulates protein synthesis through its very strong inhibition of mTOR...it strongly moderates all types of signalling in the AMPK pathway. So, if you are pushing for high levels of protein synthesis, it is working against you (but, if you have a tumor, it is working against the tumor). This moderating effect, keeping things within a certain parameter, is why it has application to anti-aging. All of the anti-agers are skinny guys and many practice starvation diets.
https://www.cellsignal.com/contents/...0heat%20shock.
-Like Ashop said, it causes GI disturbances, but normally only in the beginning of usage. And, anyone who takes this takes it for life.

[Quester]

Ok GearHeaded. I was thinking to use insulin ( in found in my Pharmacy Humulog ), but i'm afraid of use it; i've read all your answers in other sections and best practices to found the good ratio ( UI/Carbs grams ) to keep glucose in range of 80-115, but even with 20UI/day divided in pre and post workout, i'm not ready to use because i'm alone at home and i wouldn't get hypo which could me hurt.

I will use Met just before bed to limit glucose increasing during the sleep and give a benefit to shift a metabolism "boosting" to lipids as could be expected.

Slacker,
Metformin has only a 6.2 hour half life and it may work well glucose control. However, it is very unlikely you'll be experiencing any muscle growth for the time that it is active in your system.
-
You may want to look into Lantus.
-I'm currently interested in it to regulate blood sugar while taking GH in order to cut/recomp. The way I understand it is, a shorter acting insulin is okay for bulking because we are going to eat after we take it. Whereas a long acting insulin doesn't spike and so, more subtly reduces blood sugar and thereby not necessitating a potentially large administration of carbs to prevent hypo. I'm only taking CJC/Ipam (Pharm grade) but I see my blood sugar climb with intensity and frequency of administration.

[Slacker78]

-Like GH said, Metformin doesn't have much application to bodybuilding, in fact, it is conta-indicated for muscle growth.
--An additional reason is that it modulates AMPK. This is both good and bad because it restores ATP but it also down-regulates protein synthesis through its very strong inhibition of mTOR...it strongly moderates all types of signalling in the AMPK pathway. So, if you are pushing for high levels of protein synthesis, it is working against you (but, if you have a tumor, it is working against the tumor). This moderating effect, keeping things within a certain parameter, is why it has application to anti-aging. All of the anti-agers are skinny guys and many practice starvation diets.
https://www.cellsignal.com/contents/...0heat%20shock.
-Like Ashop said, it causes GI disturbances, but normally only in the beginning of usage. And, anyone who takes this takes it for life.

Actually, i knew the met has a bad impact on muscle growth cause it affects IGF-1 release also. It would seems that longevity is prerogative of people which are oriented towards of catabolic life-style rather anabolic. Staying to this paradigm, we should expect a shorter life expectation given our anabolic-like life style.

However i don't use GH for the moment. My pocket does not me allow to use it. I would like to use slin instead, but i'm not an expert and i could have just Humulog that is very rapid action and it could be more harmful than regular or less rapid ones.

For test body exogenous insulin metabolism, at the beginning, should be useful starting with a kind of slin not too much rapid or regular . Humulog seems to be a risky choice for starting.

[Slacker78]

I'll search for Lantus, as it seems more manageable, thank you.

[Quester]

I'll search for Lantus, as it seems more manageable, thank you.

Sure, but so far it has been hard to find. If you do find it, PM me, PLEASE.

However, a new realization just came to light and I'm worried that in the application I am personally considering, Lantus my be counter productive. I know high blood sugar blunts the release of CJC/Ipam but I was unaware of insulin having an effect. I'm going to try to find out, including calling my pharmacist (and not reveal to much info), today.

[Quester]

In vivo, insulin suppresses endogenous growth hormone release.
Best article: https://academic.oup.com/endo/articl...7/2410/2423298
too many big words: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29063103 and (really fucked): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10224108

I'm still going to talk to my pharmacist but stop with the Lantus search for now.

[Quester]

My pharmacist (opened at 08:30) thinks it is speculative becuase there isn't enough research. But, he acknowledged a point about negative feedback loops regarding GH increasing insulin and therefore insulin decreasing endogenous GH.
So, maybe these things are to expensive, Lantus and CJC/Ipam, to combine.

[Slacker78]

However, i think that for BB purpose, what you want is to boost muscle cells nutrition in specific phase where they need stuff to growth. For this purposes, rapid insulin is used, preferably in pre and post workout. It doesn't would have sense to use slow insulin for these purposes, except as you said, to control GH insulin-resistance where your standard rapid ( or regular ) insulin protocol is not suitable for this target.

[GearHeaded]

couple of notes here

- Metformin can have some effects on protein synthesis and hepatic IGF output . this may be a concern for a 'natural' bodybuilder. but for enhanced guys these small effects are a drop in the bucket , they are not going to effect us. everything else we take so over rides these small effects that it makes no difference. its like dropping a few drops of water on a large house fire, it doesn't do anything.. plenty of pros use Metformin year round and they have plenty of muscle, its clearly not effecting their gains.
but if your 100% natty , maybe it would be a concern


- insulin itself is going to blunt natty release of GH that your seeking from peptides. IF your only concern when taking GH peptides is to just keep blood sugars down then Metformin is going to be the best option rather then long acting insulin because its not going to negatively effect the release of natty GH..
Or if you do run insulin then using something like MK677 or actual exogenous HGH is a better option then the short acting GHRPs. Or you can use the GHRPs and time things with a short acting insulin


Slacker - if your looking at using Insuln for mainly bodybuilding purposes, increase muscularity and recovery etc.. but your concerned about using a rapid acting insulin like Humalog , then using a basic fast acting insulin like Humalin R would be another choice. it does not hit quite as 'rapid' and hard as humalog and you have a much bigger window of time to get your carbs in.
simply starting out with like 5iu with your post workout meal is pretty safe and reasonable (even if you didn't have access to food 5iu isn't going to harm you) . I often times will take up to 10iu of Humalin r with no carbs at all just to clear elevated blood sugars (caused from HGH).

so thats another option to look into .

I do like Lantus as well but only in certain situations and not necessarily for enhancement purposes . humalog or humalin works much better as a pre and post workout enhancement .
Lantus is a good option when using MK677 and exogenous HGH . it will help regulate your blood sugars which are going to be prone to be running high from the GH.. also Lantus is a good tool for an off season bulk when your running a really high carb diet . it can help take the burden off the pancreas . YES you can run Lantus and still run short acting insulin pre and post workout and with other meals in the day.

also insulin is a great Cortisol suppressant and anti catabolic . 10iu of Slin with 20mg of Winny upon waking , your Cortisol levels will plummet

[GearHeaded]

one more note here that may be useful to the topic at hand

HGH (and GH peptides and secretagogues) elevate blood sugars. this is NOT necessarily a bad thing.. too many people wrongly assume that HGH is just making you insulin resistant. not true. HGH elevates blood sugars because it needs it. Glucose is your brain and your bodies number one fuel source. HGH repairs and helps build cells . this process requires "energy". building muscle tissue requires "energy". elevated Blood serum levels of glucose provide an instant source of energy . its not insulin resistance thats going on here , its simply elevating blood sugar as an energy source .
this is also why HGH is lipolytic and releases fatty acids from storage into the blood stream. as a second energy source to be used as fuel as well.


now naturally , HGH release and elevated blood sugars are generally only happening during a 4 hour time frame while sleeping (and thus fasting). natty GH pulsing is not going to give us chronic elevated blood sugars. while sleeping and fasting and having no nutrition coming in to fuel the brain (which requires 600 cals of glucose per day) elevated blood sugar is beneficial. but elevated blood sugar 24/7 is not beneficial . this can happen when we start taking exogenous compounds that cause HGH to be elevated all the time (and not just during sleep) and thus cause blood sugars to be elevated all the time.

This is where insulin is beneficial . I don't recommend long term high dose HGH usage unless your also going to be utilizing insulin with that protocol

[Slacker78]

couple of notes here

- Metformin can have some effects on protein synthesis and hepatic IGF output . this may be a concern for a 'natural' bodybuilder. but for enhanced guys these small effects are a drop in the bucket , they are not going to effect us. everything else we take so over rides these small effects that it makes no difference. its like dropping a few drops of water on a large house fire, it doesn't do anything.. plenty of pros use Metformin year round and they have plenty of muscle, its clearly not effecting their gains.
but if your 100% natty , maybe it would be a concern


- insulin itself is going to blunt natty release of GH that your seeking from peptides. IF your only concern when taking GH peptides is to just keep blood sugars down then Metformin is going to be the best option rather then long acting insulin because its not going to negatively effect the release of natty GH..
Or if you do run insulin then using something like MK677 or actual exogenous HGH is a better option then the short acting GHRPs. Or you can use the GHRPs and time things with a short acting insulin


Slacker - if your looking at using Insuln for mainly bodybuilding purposes, increase muscularity and recovery etc.. but your concerned about using a rapid acting insulin like Humalog , then using a basic fast acting insulin like Humalin R would be another choice. it does not hit quite as 'rapid' and hard as humalog and you have a much bigger window of time to get your carbs in.
simply starting out with like 5iu with your post workout meal is pretty safe and reasonable (even if you didn't have access to food 5iu isn't going to harm you) . I often times will take up to 10iu of Humalin r with no carbs at all just to clear elevated blood sugars (caused from HGH).

so thats another option to look into .

I do like Lantus as well but only in certain situations and not necessarily for enhancement purposes . humalog or humalin works much better as a pre and post workout enhancement .
Lantus is a good option when using MK677 and exogenous HGH . it will help regulate your blood sugars which are going to be prone to be running high from the GH.. also Lantus is a good tool for an off season bulk when your running a really high carb diet . it can help take the burden off the pancreas . YES you can run Lantus and still run short acting insulin pre and post workout and with other meals in the day.

also insulin is a great Cortisol suppressant and anti catabolic . 10iu of Slin with 20mg of Winny upon waking , your Cortisol levels will plummet

Ok GearHeaded. Should i always keep the ratio 1UI/10 gr. carbs ? So 5UI of Humulin R post workout and 50gr of Carbs, right ? You told in another educational thread, to check blood sugar, after about 1.5 hour... is this valid for fast action insulin also as the rapid ones ?

[GearHeaded]

Ok GearHeaded. Should i always keep the ratio 1UI/10 gr. carbs ? So 5UI of Humulin R post workout and 50gr of Carbs, right ? You told in another educational thread, to check blood sugar, after about 1.5 hour... is this valid for fast action insulin also as the rapid ones ?

thats a good starting point ratio . however once you get dialed in its best to simply make your insulin use work with your existing diet. so if your diet calls for 250g of carbs per day , don't add any extra carbs or sugars just because your taking insulin. the insulin fuels the diet, not the diet fueling the insulin (unless your mega bulking and just going for adding as much mass as you can).. so if your post workout meal already consists of say 75g of carbs , then add in the amount of insulin needed for that amount of carbs , do not need to go doubling your carbs just because you taking insulin now.

but again, to start out and just play things safe, then yeah adding 10g of carb per 1iu of slin is not a bad idea.

give this a glance
https://forums.steroid.com/igf-1-lr3...g-insulin.html


so yes you'll want to track post perennial blood sugar. thats based on what your blood sugar is 1.5 hours after consuming at least 50g of glucose. your glucose should be under 130 ngdl at this time (wither natural or with insulin) . IF however your blood sugar reading at this time is say 70 , then you took too much insulin for the amount of carbs, you need to back off your dosage or increase your carbs.

I recommend getting a blood glucose meter and begin tracking your numbers ahead of time and finding a trend , BEFORE starting using insulin. that way when you add the insulin you can see how the trend and the numbers fluctuate.

eventually it becomes second nature.. I've been using Slin for 8 or so years . I pretty much know exactly how 10-20iu of slin in one dose is going to effect me. and how much carbs I'm going to need to keep me in that 100 ngdl or so post perennial range..
BUT even then , the body changes. if I went from a bulking phase to say a mini cut phase and I've doubled my cardio and I've cut back on food and carbs for say 5 weeks or so , and then I come back after that and begin using Slin again , I'm a lot more insulin sensitive and I need more carbs to cover the same amount of slin .
also, I know when I'm taking MK677 I can get by with more insulin and less carbs



note - keep in mind with Humalin R that its going to 'kick in' in about 30 or so mins, but its a slower "trickle effect" compared to Humalog. Also 2 hours later its still going to be in your system disposing blood glucose (its at this 2.5 or so hour mark that some guys end up going hypo, because they did not have enough carbs with their first meal with the slin, and now they've went too long without eating again)..
I personally like this aspect , because if I shoot say 20iu of slin post workout with that meal , that slin is also going to be there for my other meal that I eat about 2 hours or so after my post workout meal anyways (so I don't have to shoot more slin for that meal)

[Slacker78]

thats a good starting point ratio . however once you get dialed in its best to simply make your insulin use work with your existing diet. so if your diet calls for 250g of carbs per day , don't add any extra carbs or sugars just because your taking insulin. the insulin fuels the diet, not the diet fueling the insulin (unless your mega bulking and just going for adding as much mass as you can).. so if your post workout meal already consists of say 75g of carbs , then add in the amount of insulin needed for that amount of carbs , do not need to go doubling your carbs just because you taking insulin now.

but again, to start out and just play things safe, then yeah adding 10g of carb per 1iu of slin is not a bad idea.

give this a glance
https://forums.steroid.com/igf-1-lr3...g-insulin.html


so yes you'll want to track post perennial blood sugar. thats based on what your blood sugar is 1.5 hours after consuming at least 50g of glucose. your glucose should be under 130 ngdl at this time (wither natural or with insulin) . IF however your blood sugar reading at this time is say 70 , then you took too much insulin for the amount of carbs, you need to back off your dosage or increase your carbs.

I recommend getting a blood glucose meter and begin tracking your numbers ahead of time and finding a trend , BEFORE starting using insulin. that way when you add the insulin you can see how the trend and the numbers fluctuate.

eventually it becomes second nature.. I've been using Slin for 8 or so years . I pretty much know exactly how 10-20iu of slin in one dose is going to effect me. and how much carbs I'm going to need to keep me in that 100 ngdl or so post perennial range..
BUT even then , the body changes. if I went from a bulking phase to say a mini cut phase and I've doubled my cardio and I've cut back on food and carbs for say 5 weeks or so , and then I come back after that and begin using Slin again , I'm a lot more insulin sensitive and I need more carbs to cover the same amount of slin .
also, I know when I'm taking MK677 I can get by with more insulin and less carbs



note - keep in mind with Humalin R that its going to 'kick in' in about 30 or so mins, but its a slower "trickle effect" compared to Humalog. Also 2 hours later its still going to be in your system disposing blood glucose (its at this 2.5 or so hour mark that some guys end up going hypo, because they did not have enough carbs with their first meal with the slin, and now they've went too long without eating again)..
I personally like this aspect , because if I shoot say 20iu of slin post workout with that meal , that slin is also going to be there for my other meal that I eat about 2 hours or so after my post workout meal anyways (so I don't have to shoot more slin for that meal)

Ok, very clear. Yes, you can track your trend which is related to that specific condition and mainly the diet you're doing in that precise period; AAS dosages and tipology, bulking of cutting phase might shift your ratio UI/Carbs. I'm taking 300mg of potassium also, as you suggest plus i eat often the bananas.

With insulin use, you have not eat more carbo but only adjust the timing you eat them within ( unless aggressive bulking as you told ).

Being Humulin R is released slower than other ones more rapid, it might lead to hypo or because you haven't eat enough carbo in your first meal after pinned it or because you have let pass too much time before you had the other meal after that one about post workout. I think that even you have after 1.5 hour a good blood sugar value, you could get hypo the same after a while if you don't eat for a long time as the insulin - being it's still acting in blood stream - make the glucose metabolism "quicker" so you could get hypo unexpectedly, especially if you're very insuline sensitivity. So timing is very important in insuline use.

Another question. It's often told to "increase insulin or reduce carbo" to find the ideal spot for each one. Now i wonder... what are the pros and cons to increasing insulin or reducing carbo ? The rule of thumb "less is better" ( related to insulin ) when and how could be advisable in this case ?

[Ashop]

Look into berberine

Something that's on my radar. Any experience or advice on Berberine?

[HoldMyBeer]

Something that's on my radar. Any experience or advice on Berberine?

500mg half HR before a high carb meal
It increases insulin sensitivity similar to metformin, but it does not effect your energy distribution system because it does not effect how your liver concerts glucose like metformin does.
Better explanation on advices radio: drugs n stuff episode 33 at 44:55
I just use it when I eat simple carbs to help control the blood sugar roller coaster that inevitably makes me crave and subsequently eat more carbs because I'm a fatty

[GearHeaded]

500mg half HR before a high carb meal
It increases insulin sensitivity similar to metformin, but it does not effect your energy distribution system because it does not effect how your liver concerts glucose like metformin does.
Better explanation on advices radio: drugs n stuff episode 33 at 44:55
I just use it when I eat simple carbs to help control the blood sugar roller coaster that inevitably makes me crave and subsequently eat more carbs because I'm a fatty

another way to put it -- Berberine helps 'Partition' glucose towards storage as muscle glycogen (and thus blood sugar levels lower) , whereas Metformin mainly lowers blood glucose by preventing its release into the blood stream in the first place (ie, hepatic output of glucose)..

Berberine would be considered the better "performance enhancer" , if thats what your after (which isn't really the point of either drug though)

[JohnnyBreeze]

This may be a bit off topic, but my pain management doctor put me on metformin to help lower my inflammatory markers which were insanely high. While I've lost quite a bit of weight since then (over 100lbs), all are now within normal range. I was taking no other anti-inflammatory medications.