IGF-1 Info from Dave Polumbo's column this month

[JohnnyB]

Posted by Crankin'steiN at Percision Muscle

IGF-1, as the name implies, is an extremely anabolic hormone that has insulin-like actions (i.e. it shuttles nutrients, specifically amino acids and glucose, into the muscle cells where they can be synthesized into new muscle tissue.) When bodybuilders take growth hormone injections, they are not injecting a pure growth stimulus - they are taking a stimululating or releasing factor. It is for this reason that high dosing of GH is not necessarily going to result in more growth. Growth is limited by the amount of IGF-1 the liver can produce in response to any given dosage of GH. IGF-1 has been synthetically synthesized (using similar technology as that used to make GH) to circumvent the shortcomings that are associated with GH-mediated IGF-1 production in the liver. If we try to maxamize the output of IGF-1 in order to further increase muscle mass, it becomes much easier to just administer IGF-1 directly. In persuit of this goal, scientists began to study the pysiology and pharmacology of the hormone IGF-1. What they found was that IGF-1 circulates in the bloodstream (99 percent) bound to specific binding proteins. It is the remaining unbound or free (1 percent) of the IGF-1 that causes the anticipated muscle cell hyperplasia. (The bound 99 percent is essentially wasted).In order to combat this phenomenon of the binding proteins "stealing" our precious IGF-1, scientists have chemically altered the original IGF-1 molecule and have added chemically bound side chains, thus creating a new hormone known as LONG R3 IGF-1. (The long R3 refers to the three long side chains that have been added to the original molecule). These large, space-occupying, side chains are attached to the IGF-1 molecule to prevent these blood born binding proteins from "snatching" up and inactivating the IGF-1. For the last several years, most bodybuilders who were privy enough to get their hands on synthetically produced IGF-1 have been using the Long R3 IGF-1 variety thinking it will last longer in your body (12 hours opposed to 20 minutes). Also, that more of it will be available (unbound) to help build and repair muscle. The theory is essentially correct, however, what bodybuilders started noticing after extended usage of Long R3 IGF-1 was that it stopped working as effectively after about 4 weeks.
I began to keep notes and I worked out a system by which bodybuilders would inject Long R3 IGF-1 [about 10-20 mcg] within 15 mins following a workout so the IGF-1 could circulate and locate these newly produced IGF-1 receptors on the damaged muscle cell membranes. (These new receptors appear as a direct result of damage induced by intense weight training and muscular trauma). It is at these damaged cells that the body increases the number of IGF-1 recpetors so it can signal where the muscle repairs must be performed. (This is why muscle cells grow, preferentially, and not bone tissue or internal organs, as rumoured).
However, as the dosage of IGF-1 increases above the suggested 10-20mcg per day, the IGF-1 muscle cell receptors become saturated and now all this excess IGF-1 goes straight to the highest naturally occuring concentration of IGF-1 receptors - The extremisties (i.e feet, hands and facial bones). Thereby, side effects such as shoe and hand size increases and facial bone thickening can occur. Additionally, high Long R3 IGF-1 dosing will lead to decreases in muscle cell IGF-1 receptors, thus diminishing the results seen with Long R3 IGF-1 usage over time. In summation, empiracal evidence has shown that 10-20mcg per day of Long R3 IGF-1 causes significant muscle cell hyperplasia and will continue to do so extremely effectively for approximately 30 days.
Even with conservative amounts of Long R3 IGF-1, the hormone still stops functioning after a perios of time. Therefore, I usually suggest that bodybuilders take a two to four week "holiday" off the Long R3 IGF-1 after every 30 day course of administration.

JohnnyB

[rococo]

Wow, good stuff! Thanks for finding it!

[asymmetrical1]

palumbo says some odd stuff....like, "running test at anything less than 750mg/week will not produce results"

[Solrock]

Nice post JohhnyB

[JohnnyB]

palumbo says some odd stuff....like, "running test at anything less than 750mg/week will not produce results"

I may not agree with every thing he say, but I do find this article of interest.

JohnnyB

[asymmetrical1]

I may not agree with every thing he say, but I do find this article of interest.

JohnnyB

definitely a good post and read johnny b.....and palumbo might just know what he is doing.....he's a rather big guy to say the least

[groverman1]

Thanks for passing in the info bro.

[powerlifter]

Nice post Bro - good info

[BrownBomber]

WOW!! Only 10-20mcgs a day. Most every "Educational post" I read about IGF-1 recommends to start at 40mcgs. Ive read some post where ppl use in excess of 80mcgs of IGF a day to even notice results. DO you guys feel that IGF is dependent on ones weight?

Thanks
BB

[einstein1905]

WOW!! Only 10-20mcgs a day. Most every "Educational post" I read about IGF-1 recommends to start at 40mcgs. Ive read some post where ppl use in excess of 80mcgs of IGF a day to even notice results. DO you guys feel that IGF is dependent on ones weight?

Thanks
BB

No, the effects of shooting it IM should be predominantly site-specific, so your overall bodyweight shouldn't be a factor. If you shoot it subQ (you shouldn't), that's a different story.

[Microbrew]

Nice Post

[Mr. Sparkle]

Good read, thanks JB

[JohnnyB]

All the info we can get on this is going to help us all

JohnnyB

[BrownBomber]

No, the effects of shooting it IM should be predominantly site-specific, so your overall bodyweight shouldn't be a factor. If you shoot it subQ (you shouldn't), that's a different story.

I see. However, if one trained back should they shoot their traps, bi's, lats, rhomboids, etc? And where do you shoot on your day off? If you trained shoulders do you shoot 10mcgs in the left delt and 10cgs in the other??

Thanks
BB

[Mr. Sparkle]

So it was a myth that everything IGF-1 touches will grow, just the rebuilding muscle cells. Is that what he is saying here?

[mugzieee]

what about strenghthening of the tendons and ligaments with long r3 IGf-1 ?

[einstein1905]

So it was a myth that everything IGF-1 touches will grow, just the rebuilding muscle cells. Is that what he is saying here?

No, it's not a myth. Anything with IGF receptors can be bound by IGF. I've seen it 2x now where he (Paumbo) says the greatest number of IGF receptors are in the extremeties...possibly, but the greatest concentration of IGF receptors are on the intestinal epithelia (in normal people). The spleen also has a high concentration of IGF-1 receptors. He makes a valid point that more IGF-1 receptors are expressed on damaged muscle tissue and that this would be the optimal time to shoot in that site. However, there is a variation of IGF-1 that is expressed in the muscle (not in the liver) in response to resistance training. It hasn't been shown that the muscle-specific IGF-1 and the liver-originating IGF-1 won't have the same effect on muscle, but it's not certain they will. This, for those that know, is not the same as MGF, which is yet another IGF-1 variant.

He says that more than 20 mcgs of IGF-1 in a particular site can saturate the IGF receptors and allow surplus IGF-1 to go systemic. Recent eveidence has shown that the opposite is true. IGF-1 has been expressed at high levels withing muscle, which affected neighboring muscle cells but did NOT elevate plasma IGF-1 levels at all. This makes for good evidence that IGF-1 has trouble entering or leaving muscle. The effect of GH is to bind to GH receptors on muscle, causing increased expression of intramuscular IGF-1. You see increased plasma IGF-1 levels while taking GH because much GH is going to the liver causing increased expression of liver-originating IGF-1 too.

IGF-1's effects on connective tissue would be best seen if injected subQ so that it goes systemic. However, this also allows for binding wherever there is IGF receptors, so it isn't the best idea. GH would be better if that's your prime reason for taking IGF-1.

I haven't seen any data to support the doses he mentions. He may be correct, but pretty much any study on IGF-1 these days is publishable, so I'd expect him to back that up with citations. There have been many that have seen great results with 40 mcgs and up. I haven't heard from people using much lower doses....I'd like to though.

As far as the time to take it after workout....I would think that there would be a window of time in which IGF-1 receptors were expressed at their highest levels on damaged muscle. Very knowledgeable people have said that even the next day into the muscle worked the day before works great. Someone asked into which muscle would they shoot if they worked back....that depends on where you'd most like to see the effects, IMO. I'm fairly convinced that very little IGF will leave the muscle injected.

[JohnnyB]

I thought the IGF-1 would enter the system thorugh the blood stream like injexting AAS would, does it enter the blood stream at all?

JohnnyB

[Bigkel1]

how expengive is long r3 igf1

[Testify]

Thanks JB!

[einstein1905]

I thought the IGF-1 would enter the system thorugh the blood stream like injexting AAS would, does it enter the blood stream at all?

JohnnyB

If injected subQ, it should. If injected into a muscle, it may or may not. Some recent papers suggest it may not, but they have no good explanation for why this is happening. It's just that the data showing it doesn't (which wasn't the primary focus of the paper...just a side observation) is pretty clear.

[JohnnyB]

How good are sub-q injection for growth?

JohnnyB

[einstein1905]

How good are sub-q injection for growth?

JohnnyB

For GH, it's a different story. If you're doing GH, you want the GH to cause the dramatic increases in hepatic IGF-1 release/expression. You also want the GH to bind to the GH receptors on muscle and cause upregulation of
IGF-1 within the muscles (the muscle IGF-1 variant, IGF-1E, I believe...not so important). GH can also act directly and indirectly on connective tissue and various components of the immune system, and so many other tissues.

I hear people throw out numbers like "40mcgs of IGF-1 LR3 is the same as 7.5IUs of GH". These kind of numbers would be very difficult to accurately come up with. It's not even known all the various places at which GH acts, and new variants of IGF-1 have been discovered recently.
I would say that 40mcgs or so of R3 injected subQ, which will become systemic, would have a far greater impact on plasma ACTIVE IGF-1 levels (and for a longer period of time) than would 4IU's of GH injected subQ per day, as the IGF-1 resulting from exogenous GH is native and still subject to binding by IGFBP3 among others and has a shorter half-life. That's why I would rather inject the R3 IM site-specifically to alleviate most, if not all, of the unwanted binding throughout the body. That's not to say that IGF-1 LR3 doesn't have other direct effects on tissues. Connective tissue, for example, can be greatly benefited by IGF-1, but to get to connective tissue, you have to allow the IGF-1 to go systemically and bind receptors on connective tissue in a stochastic fashion. In doing so, you subject yourself to all the deleterious effects of IGF-1 throughout the body too. You can't, obviously, directly inject tendons realistically.

Taking supraphysiological levels of GH just allows you to do this in a milder fashion and also to get the compound effects of GH binding having direct effects on target tissue as well as indirect effects such as its binding causing target tissue upregulation of IGF-1. You are still prone to IGF-1 binding epithelia on the intestines and other unwanted locations.

You know subQ GH shots are affecting connective tissue......
The actual sensation of the carpal tunnel pain from GH is more than likely exactly that....carpal tunnel pain. The "carpal tunnel" is a "tunnel" through which tendons from your fingers run through your wrists. There is very little room in the "tunnel". Therefore, any swelling of these tendons puts pressure on the "tunnel" and all of the tendons passing through it and causes pain. Tendon growth will have the same kind of effect as tendon swelling/inflammation.

[JohnnyB]

I meant how would IGF-1 be for muscle growth sub-q

JohnnyB

[Pinch]

For GH, it's a different story. If you're doing GH, you want the GH to cause the dramatic increases in hepatic IGF-1 release/expression. You also want the GH to bind to the GH receptors on muscle and cause upregulation of
IGF-1 within the muscles (the muscle IGF-1 variant, IGF-1E, I believe...not so important). GH can also act directly and indirectly on connective tissue and various components of the immune system, and so many other tissues.

I hear people throw out numbers like "40mcgs of IGF-1 LR3 is the same as 7.5IUs of GH". These kind of numbers would be very difficult to accurately come up with. It's not even known all the various places at which GH acts, and new variants of IGF-1 have been discovered recently.
I would say that 40mcgs or so of R3 injected subQ, which will become systemic, would have a far greater impact on plasma ACTIVE IGF-1 levels (and for a longer period of time) than would 4IU's of GH injected subQ per day, as the IGF-1 resulting from exogenous GH is native and still subject to binding by IGFBP3 among others and has a shorter half-life. That's why I would rather inject the R3 IM site-specifically to alleviate most, if not all, of the unwanted binding throughout the body. That's not to say that IGF-1 LR3 doesn't have other direct effects on tissues. Connective tissue, for example, can be greatly benefited by IGF-1, but to get to connective tissue, you have to allow the IGF-1 to go systemically and bind receptors on connective tissue in a stochastic fashion. In doing so, you subject yourself to all the deleterious effects of IGF-1 throughout the body too. You can't, obviously, directly inject tendons realistically.

Taking supraphysiological levels of GH just allows you to do this in a milder fashion and also to get the compound effects of GH binding having direct effects on target tissue as well as indirect effects such as its binding causing target tissue upregulation of IGF-1. You are still prone to IGF-1 binding epithelia on the intestines and other unwanted locations.

You know subQ GH shots are affecting connective tissue......
The actual sensation of the carpal tunnel pain from GH is more than likely exactly that....carpal tunnel pain. The "carpal tunnel" is a "tunnel" through which tendons from your fingers run through your wrists. There is very little room in the "tunnel". Therefore, any swelling of these tendons puts pressure on the "tunnel" and all of the tendons passing through it and causes pain. Tendon growth will have the same kind of effect as tendon swelling/inflammation.

does carpel tunnel tendon swelling from GH subside after usage?

[3Vandoo]

does carpel tunnel tendon swelling from GH subside after usage?

Good question, im not on GH since 5 months now and I still have stiff fingers and all effects related to GH

[einstein1905]

does carpel tunnel tendon swelling from GH subside after usage?

That's just the thing...it's growth not swelling. Have to ask around...ask some people that have been off for awhile.

[einstein1905]

I meant how would IGF-1 be for muscle growth sub-q

JohnnyB

If IGF-1 has trouble leaving individual muscles, then I suspect (but I can't say for sure) that IGF-1 won't be able to access muscle IGF-1 receptors well from the vascular system. So, it's probably not the hepatic-originating IGF-1 increases caused by exogenous GH use that is responsible for increased muscle mass, but rather the GH binding to muscle GH receptors and causing the localized espression of IGF-1.
I can't make a good argument for injecting IGF-1 subQ. The GH binding GH receptors on muscle, causing intramuscular IGF-1 expression, may not even be as significant as the increased IGF-1 expression response in resistance-trained muscle.

[JohnnyB]

So IGF-1 doesn't get into the blood steam via the muscle as gear does? Why do you think that is? It would seem that the blood in the muscle would pick it up like it does AAS.

JohnnyB

[einstein1905]

So IGF-1 doesn't get into the blood steam via the muscle as gear does? Why do you think that is? It would seem that the blood in the muscle would pick it up like it does AAS.

JohnnyB

I honestly don't know why this is. The recent paper expressing IGF-1 transgenically in skeletal muscle showed very high levels of expression within the muscle. Despite this, plasma levels of IGF-1 did not elevate. The authors couldn't give a good explanation for this either. This wasn't a "no statistically significant increase in plasma IGF-1 levels when results from individuals were averaged" kind of thing....NONE of the individuals showed elevation in plasma levels, despite high levels of intramuscular expression. Muscle is very vascularized, and vascular tissue is very permeable to so many compounds. Yet, even though IGF-1 had effects on neighboring myotubes/muscle fibers/bundles, there wasn't any taken up by the vascular system.
I've never seen where anyone looked at this type of thing before, therefore there is no literature to dispute this.

[Pinch]

I honestly don't know why this is. The recent paper expressing IGF-1 transgenically in skeletal muscle showed very high levels of expression within the muscle. Despite this, plasma levels of IGF-1 did not elevate. The authors couldn't give a good explanation for this either. This wasn't a "no statistically significant increase in plasma IGF-1 levels when results from individuals were averaged" kind of thing....NONE of the individuals showed elevation in plasma levels, despite high levels of intramuscular expression. Muscle is very vascularized, and vascular tissue is very permeable to so many compounds. Yet, even though IGF-1 had effects on neighboring myotubes/muscle fibers/bundles, there wasn't any taken up by the vascular system.
I've never seen where anyone looked at this type of thing before, therefore there is no literature to dispute this.

so does this mean it is best to do multiple IGF-1 intramuscular site injections? instead of doing sub-Q

?

[einstein1905]

so does this mean it is best to do multiple IGF-1 intramuscular site injections? instead of doing sub-Q

?

Everything seems to point to IM site injections being better.

[BrownBomber]

EinStein1905 (anyone can answer but it seems that ES1905 knows quyite a lot),

You really know your sht bro and I appreciate you sharing it with all of us! I have a few questions if you dont mind...

1) Have you ever used IGF?

2) If so what was your dosage? Length? Results?

3) SInce IGF-1 is better to shoot inot the muscle 15-20 minutes after a workout. Does this mean you shoud only use it on lifting days?

4) Also say you work chest on Monday. You wake up inject 10mcgs in left pec and 10mcgs in right pec w/ different slin pins of course. Then you lift in the afternoon and repeat this same sequence. IS this the best way to use IGF? Then back on Tuesday and inject in the lats...left one, right one, repeat......

5) I see ppl injecting it exclusively into their delts swithing them up everyday. Yet, none mention that their delts blew up or had amazing transformation in just the delts. Have any ideas on why?

Thanks for your time and knowledge bro

BB

[einstein1905]

EinStein1905 (anyone can answer but it seems that ES1905 knows quyite a lot),

You really know your sht bro and I appreciate you sharing it with all of us! I have a few questions if you dont mind...

1) Have you ever used IGF?

2) If so what was your dosage? Length? Results?

3) SInce IGF-1 is better to shoot inot the muscle 15-20 minutes after a workout. Does this mean you shoud only use it on lifting days?

4) Also say you work chest on Monday. You wake up inject 10mcgs in left pec and 10mcgs in right pec w/ different slin pins of course. Then you lift in the afternoon and repeat this same sequence. IS this the best way to use IGF? Then back on Tuesday and inject in the lats...left one, right one, repeat......

5) I see ppl injecting it exclusively into their delts swithing them up everyday. Yet, none mention that their delts blew up or had amazing transformation in just the delts. Have any ideas on why?

Thanks for your time and knowledge bro

BB

3mg total, 50mcgs/day bilaterally (about 6hrs post w/o into muscle group worked) for two 30 day cycles, 30 days apart. Although I didn't measure, pecs and bis were clearly fuller. It was during a cycle though, but these parts in particular took off while using R3.
I've read where people will even shoot the target muscle the next morning after working it the day before with great results. I don't think it's ever been shown how long IGF receptors are upregulated after the muscle is worked. I'd assume there is a somewhat generous window of opportunity.

I can't explain why people injecting solely into their delts aren't seeing gains there. I didn't notice any size gains in the delts, but definition/maturity improved. The real size gains (that stood out above the general mass gains of the cycle) were bis and pecs.

What I'm working on now, although very slowly, is designing 2 plasmid DNA vectors, one carrying the IGF-1 gene and the other carrying the IL-15 gene. When injected into a muscle, the 2 genes will be expressed under the control of a muscle-specific/viral hybrid promoter, so that IGF-1 and IL-15 will only be expressed in the muscle. I'm also using ultrasound to the injection site to increase uptake of the DNA into the muscle. It's pretty safe to say that the overall IGF-1 protein that will be expressed from these plasmids will be greater than any currently used dose of IM IGF-1 recombinant protein injection, and expression may last 30 days or much longer (we'll see). I'm just going to do my calves first to get a sense for the dosage and reaction. The synery between high levels of IGF-1 and IL-15 should be great.