chiropractor? do they work? med insurance?

[BrokenBricks]

neither is posting bogus charts and studies that support western medicine only and MD's and condemnation of DC's.

It is past my bed time. If you are saying that that chart does not represent any part of DC education so be it. I pulled that picture off 3 different DC websites. *They* seem to believe it. This is not an indictment of what *you* personally believe.



Here is a sample of homeopathic thinking...not DC..homeopathic....

"The major criticism that some in the scientific community have had with homeopathy, concerns the point that homeopathy's specific attenuations are diluted beyond 24x. Theoretically there would not be any of the original molecules remaining in it, based upon Avogardro's number, which is 6,253 x 10-23 (the number of molecules in a mole of any substance). The faithful believers in the Newtonian physics cannot conceive any reality beyond this point. However, homeopaths do agree it is not the molecules that are responsible for its healing effects, but some form of molecular activity that works profoundly with the nervous system. Quantum physics offer many explanations of activity beyond the molecular.

One other theory explaining homeopathy's effectiveness beyond the molecular can be explained by Swedish plasma physicist and Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfevs' observations with physical matter and antimatter. Hannes Alfevs' has stated: "In the laboratory whenever we produce matter from energy we also produce equal amounts of matter and antimatter. Antimatter and matter have opposite electrical charges, and when they are combined they annihilate each other and release a great amount of energy."

Many believe that this appears to be an accurate description of how homeopathic remedies function in the body. Matter (the pathological condition) and antimatter (the homeopathic remedy) unite to produce relatively large amounts of energy. The body's nervous system can then utilize this specific energy pattern for its restoration or "

This is not "alternative"....this is quackery.

[MuscleScience]

It is past my bed time. If you are saying that that chart does not represent any part of DC education so be it. I pulled that picture off 3 different DC websites. *They* seem to believe it. This is not an indictment of what *you* personally believe.



Here is a sample of homeopathic thinking...not DC..homeopathic....

"The major criticism that some in the scientific community have had with homeopathy, concerns the point that homeopathy's specific attenuations are diluted beyond 24x. Theoretically there would not be any of the original molecules remaining in it, based upon Avogardro's number, which is 6,253 x 10-23 (the number of molecules in a mole of any substance). The faithful believers in the Newtonian physics cannot conceive any reality beyond this point. However, homeopaths do agree it is not the molecules that are responsible for its healing effects, but some form of molecular activity that works profoundly with the nervous system. Quantum physics offer many explanations of activity beyond the molecular.

One other theory explaining homeopathy's effectiveness beyond the molecular can be explained by Swedish plasma physicist and Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfevs' observations with physical matter and antimatter. Hannes Alfevs' has stated: "In the laboratory whenever we produce matter from energy we also produce equal amounts of matter and antimatter. Antimatter and matter have opposite electrical charges, and when they are combined they annihilate each other and release a great amount of energy."

Many believe that this appears to be an accurate description of how homeopathic remedies function in the body. Matter (the pathological condition) and antimatter (the homeopathic remedy) unite to produce relatively large amounts of energy. The body's nervous system can then utilize this specific energy pattern for its restoration or "

This is not "alternative"....this is quackery.

Maybe this will help your argument out a little, I know its anecdotal but it may help you out. There are more if you want them.

http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/index.htm

[BrokenBricks]

Maybe this will help your argument out a little, I know its anecdotal but it may help you out. There are more if you want them.

http://www.homeopathicdoctor.com/index.htm

Revolting.

[thegodfather]

Too many intellectual meatheads on this board now...Damnit....

Anyway, I think it would be hard to quantify how many DC's actually practice homeopathic medicine. I would hope that none do, but in every profession you will have people practicing on the fringes. Look at the MD's who have gotten in some serious legal shit over prescribing HRT to patients and HGH. Some people in medicine view them as quacks, and dont see any legitimate value in prescribing HGH and Testosterone for longevity purposes just because the FDA's "prescribing guidelines" say that it can only be used to treat X condition.

I am fully down with DC's who treat only MS related injury. Those who try to broaden their scope of practice to other areas, well we've already had this discussion in the lounge and my feelings on it are pretty well established. No adjustment in the world is going to treat cancer, or a myocardial infarction, lol and I dont think any DC in their right mind would say they could, but I'm sure there are a handful that would say they could....

[MuscleScience]

Revolting.

Should I post more or is my point across.....

[thegodfather]

Revolting.

Lol....I'll bet the people at UPenn wanna knock this lady off for going this direction...I cant say bad things about the people at Jeff though, I have friends there, and they have a HUGE emphasis on community medicine...


AHHHH... lol christ...board certified in family medicine...but "licensed" in the state of california as a surgeon??? Something tells me she didnt do a PGY 1-5 residency and PGY 6-7 fellowship...No one in their right mind should let a board certified PCP perform a surgery on them...

[MuscleScience]

Too many intellectual meatheads on this board now...Damnit....

Anyway, I think it would be hard to quantify how many DC's actually practice homeopathic medicine. I would hope that none do, but in every profession you will have people practicing on the fringes. Look at the MD's who have gotten in some serious legal shit over prescribing HRT to patients and HGH. Some people in medicine view them as quacks, and dont see any legitimate value in prescribing HGH and Testosterone for longevity purposes just because the FDA's "prescribing guidelines" say that it can only be used to treat X condition.

I am fully down with DC's who treat only MS related injury. Those who try to broaden their scope of practice to other areas, well we've already had this discussion in the lounge and my feelings on it are pretty well established. No adjustment in the world is going to treat cancer, or a myocardial infarction, lol and I dont think any DC in their right mind would say they could, but I'm sure there are a handful that would say they could....

I love debate like this, this was what I did for five years straight. Usually it was me on the receiving end because my professors didnt want me to get cheated on my scientific badgering.....

[Doc.Sust]

It is past my bed time. If you are saying that that chart does not represent any part of DC education so be it. I pulled that picture off 3 different DC websites. *They* seem to believe it. This is not an indictment of what *you* personally believe.



Here is a sample of homeopathic thinking...not DC..homeopathic....

"The major criticism that some in the scientific community have had with homeopathy, concerns the point that homeopathy's specific attenuations are diluted beyond 24x. Theoretically there would not be any of the original molecules remaining in it, based upon Avogardro's number, which is 6,253 x 10-23 (the number of molecules in a mole of any substance). The faithful believers in the Newtonian physics cannot conceive any reality beyond this point. However, homeopaths do agree it is not the molecules that are responsible for its healing effects, but some form of molecular activity that works profoundly with the nervous system. Quantum physics offer many explanations of activity beyond the molecular.

One other theory explaining homeopathy's effectiveness beyond the molecular can be explained by Swedish plasma physicist and Nobel Laureate Hannes Alfevs' observations with physical matter and antimatter. Hannes Alfevs' has stated: "In the laboratory whenever we produce matter from energy we also produce equal amounts of matter and antimatter. Antimatter and matter have opposite electrical charges, and when they are combined they annihilate each other and release a great amount of energy."

Many believe that this appears to be an accurate description of how homeopathic remedies function in the body. Matter (the pathological condition) and antimatter (the homeopathic remedy) unite to produce relatively large amounts of energy. The body's nervous system can then utilize this specific energy pattern for its restoration or "

This is not "alternative"....this is quackery.

yes that is homeopathic nonsesne. thank you for clarifying that as nothing to do with DC's. it is junk.

[Doc.Sust]

Revolting.

take notice the initials after he name where MD. not DC. i am sure you dont want that lady to be thought of as the poster child of what the average MD does or believes in. right?

on a side note, i dont know enough on homoepathy to slam it or say it is all bullshit. i would be ignorant to say it doesnt work because i myself dont know the first thing about it. what you did post in that one thread looked like a total bunch of BS, but can anyone say for certain that ALL homeopathic theories are complete bullshit?

anyone with some more info on the homeopathic scope of practice please explain to me the general premise of what they practice.

[quarry206]

Why don't people just realize that just because something isn't a 100% it doesn't make it worthless..

there are cures on the market that do more harm than good. there are so called cures that only work on 10% of people effected by a disorder, but we are so happy to have it. and lets not get started on the vaccines we pump into our child that have never been double blind tested or anything else to give us proof of its worth. we love things that work for us and talk shit about what doesn't....on this forum we talk all day about workouts and rehabs that work good for different people, and ask for help... but yet now that we have a medical issue that we are 50%-50% on.. people just want to talk shit instead of helping the next person by just telling why maybe theirs didn't work...

remember one thing. there are good chiropractors and bad ones, good doctors and bad ones, good cops and bad ones, even a presist can lead somebody to a better life or destory a little boys furture...

[BrokenBricks]

Why don't people just realize that just because something isn't a 100% it doesn't make it worthless..

there are cures on the market that do more harm than good. there are so called cures that only work on 10% of people effected by a disorder, but we are so happy to have it. and lets not get started on the vaccines we pump into our child that have never been double blind tested or anything else to give us proof of its worth. we love things that work for us and talk shit about what doesn't....on this forum we talk all day about workouts and rehabs that work good for different people, and ask for help... but yet now that we have a medical issue that we are 50%-50% on.. people just want to talk shit instead of helping the next person by just telling why maybe theirs didn't work...

remember one thing. there are good chiropractors and bad ones, good doctors and bad ones, good cops and bad ones, even a presist can lead somebody to a better life or destory a little boys furture...

A vaccine denier?


The bold part is a complete cop out. "Good astrologers and bad" It is just a mechanism by which you rationalize doing no thought of your own.

[quarry206]

its not a cop out, its just a fact of life... just because you have a bad one, or because it didn't work for you. doesn't mean all of them are idiots.. for a long time i thought it was a waste of money. until i knew people personally that went with serious long time back and neck problems and now are pain and medication free..

i don't sit up all night looking up graphs and for everything.. because it doesn't effect me. we don't make fun of people praying over the sick? if going to a chiropractor makes them better than let them go.. why really does it bother you that much. people wth experience with them or medical professionals chimes in with opinions. as did you with your medical opinion. and giving yours is fine. but why make the whole practice of chiropractors seem like voodoo. people come on here to get help. not to see people fighting like children. so on that note. i say goodbye to a thread that should have never been revised from its grave..


and throwing astrologers in there was the cop out. i name actual jobs that millions people go to daily, i didn't throw in witch doctors or furtune tellers


and as far as vaccine deny. yes i do now, for myself, because of a very bad experience in 2003 that ended with me in surgery. and all path reports said it was from the amount of vaccinces the army pumped into me before leaving for Iraq. since then i don't take anything that i see no need in taking.

[Doc.Sust]

A vaccine denier?


The bold part is a complete cop out. "Good astrologers and bad" It is just a mechanism by which you rationalize doing no thought of your own.

enough.i thought we at least had some sort of understanding. i am trying to keep this on the civil side but you have to keep pushing the issue. dont compare it to astrology. that is just insulting and my friend i have let you get away with a few to many insults. even personal jabs at myself.knock it off. agree to disagree and walk away.

[BrokenBricks]

enough.i thought we at least had some sort of understanding. i am trying to keep this on the civil side but you have to keep pushing the issue. dont compare it to astrology. that is just insulting and my friend i have let you get away with a few to many insults. even personal jabs at myself.knock it off. agree to disagree and walk away.

My quoted comments related to what quarry wrote. You misread it. I am not comparing DC to astrology. I am taking a style of thinking "well there are good and bad in anything, so why worry about it" and extending it to its logical conclusion. It is lazy thinking meant only to end discussion. In reality everything must be judged on its own merits.

You, nor I, nor anyone here I above criticism however. I am being civil and calm.
I think you can take it. I took the "MDs are owned by drug companies and are just pushing whatever drug the companies tell them to" line of garbage from another poster. After working my ass off for over a decade (and maybe having seen ten drug reps in all that time) it pisses me off too. But we are big boys and can take it.

[BrokenBricks]

its not a cop out, its just a fact of life... just because you have a bad one, or because it didn't work for you. doesn't mean all of them are idiots.. for a long time i thought it was a waste of money. until i knew people personally that went with serious long time back and neck problems and now are pain and medication free..

i don't sit up all night looking up graphs and for everything.. because it doesn't effect me. we don't make fun of people praying over the sick? if going to a chiropractor makes them better than let them go.. why really does it bother you that much. people wth experience with them or medical professionals chimes in with opinions. as did you with your medical opinion. and giving yours is fine. but why make the whole practice of chiropractors seem like voodoo. people come on here to get help. not to see people fighting like children. so on that note. i say goodbye to a thread that should have never been revised from its grave..


and throwing astrologers in there was the cop out. i name actual jobs that millions people go to daily, i didn't throw in witch doctors or furtune tellers


and as far as vaccine deny. yes i do now, for myself, because of a very bad experience in 2003 that ended with me in surgery. and all path reports said it was from the amount of vaccinces the army pumped into me before leaving for Iraq. since then i don't take anything that i see no need in taking.

I'll tell you my problem. Not all DC restrict themselves to MS complaints. So I get to see patients in the ER who have delayed being treated for their pneumonia or heart attack because their DC said it was a displaced rib or what not. These people are not qualified to rule out MI, yet some do this sort of thing or else I would not have to deal with the after math. This is serious. These are real people in the real world with real disease. "Lets just all get along" Doesn't cut it.

[Doc.Sust]

I'll tell you my problem. Not all DC restrict themselves to MS complaints. So I get to see patients in the ER who have delayed being treated for their pneumonia or heart attack because their DC said it was a displaced rib or what not. These people are not qualified to rule out MI, yet some do this sort of thing or else I would not have to deal with the after math. This is serious. These are real people in the real world with real disease. "Lets just all get along" Doesn't cut it.

md's dont misdiagnose? is that what you are saying? lol come on, get out of here. get off the medical soap box and quit pointing fingers. misdiagnosis happens on both sides of the fence. i some how doubt that the majority of your cases are chiropractic errors.

[yannick35]

Has i said chiropratic will work for some people but at some point the chiro needs to call it quits, in my case he did not and that is why i am so frustrated against this profession.

I had to do my own research and bring him the articles that would confuse him, snapping hip joint, ligament laxity, prolotherapy, core exercise training, spineforce, inversion table and more.

The first chiro was a nice guy told me that posture re-education does not happen in a week and that in my case it would take around a year.

After six months when i saw almost no results a part from temporary relief from my chronic pain i question is practice, he showed me the before and after x rays that did show progress.

It was after a year that i was frustrated and showed him is promo that said if he could not get me better he would send me elsewhere, this is when he told me that he did not have the techic to adjust my C7 verbebrae and that he would send me to another chiro who does have the techic.

I went there with a lot of frustration this second chiro was a total jerk but still i manage to stay there for 10 weeks, after seeing no results i canceled the rest of my appointments and told him that i wanted to go to sport medecin.

He got frustrated and told me that no one quits before he tells them to, that sport medecine would do nothing for me and that i would come crawling back in a few months to get my adjustments.

that made me very mad and i told him and is receptionist to fukk off.

Some chiro do practice prolotherapy and have better views but the ones i saw where just lame assholles.

Please understand my frustration has i have been injured for a very long time this is taking away my life has week speak, so many times i have been told to be patient and even more without results.

I wasted all my thirties and in 3 years will be 40 years old, when i was younger i was competing in Tae Kwon Do did very well, i was weight training 4-6 times per week, manage to keep my bodyweight in a good range and my body fat too.

Over the last 8 years its been very hard to train, my bodyweight has gone from 180 pounds to sometimes 230 pounds.

Now with the help of prolotherapy i can do a lot more and was able to get down to 208, still want to try and get down to 180 again.

[Doc.Sust]

I think you can take it. I took the "MDs are owned by drug companies and are just pushing whatever drug the companies tell them to" line of garbage from another poster. After working my ass off for over a decade (and maybe having seen ten drug reps in all that time) it pisses me off too. But we are big boys and can take it.

sure we can.

but doesnt it suck when someone berates something you worked so hard for and that their opinion was completely off base because they were misinformed and not even close to truth?

now you see how i feel

i respect what you do. very very much so. but it isnt a profession that is for everyone, myself included. i couldnt imagine the time, social life , athletics, friends and family you have to put to the side to do what you do. high stress, over worked and underpaid for the amount of crap you have to put up with.
if you had to read that as a job description, i think most people wouldnt jump at the opportunity.take that above statment and change it to the opposite, and you have my job. dont the opposites sound somewhat appealing? the idea of never being on call, never missing your childs little league game. never missing an aniversery or holiday? getting paid well and working basically with minimum stress and still helping people on a daily basis?

weather you believe it or not, chiro has a place in health care, it does good. we all arent crazed lunatics with magic crystals and harry potters book of spells. i think what we do is more like PT than anything else, those who do think they can fly on magic carpets and change water into whine are whack jobs and dont represent the majority of what the profession does.

what you do is a necessity, and i thank you. it is something that you really have to want, want more than just about anything else in the world . ever feel like the job owns you more than you love the job? just curious.

[Doc.Sust]

Has i said chiropratic will work for some people but at some point the chiro needs to call it quits, in my case he did not and that is why i am so frustrated against this profession.

I had to do my own research and bring him the articles that would confuse him, snapping hip joint, ligament laxity, prolotherapy, core exercise training, spineforce, inversion table and more.

The first chiro was a nice guy told me that posture re-education does not happen in a week and that in my case it would take around a year.

After six months when i saw almost no results a part from temporary relief from my chronic pain i question is practice, he showed me the before and after x rays that did show progress.

It was after a year that i was frustrated and showed him is promo that said if he could not get me better he would send me elsewhere, this is when he told me that he did not have the techic to adjust my C7 verbebrae and that he would send me to another chiro who does have the techic.

I went there with a lot of frustration this second chiro was a total jerk but still i manage to stay there for 10 weeks, after seeing no results i canceled the rest of my appointments and told him that i wanted to go to sport medecin.

He got frustrated and told me that no one quits before he tells them to, that sport medecine would do nothing for me and that i would come crawling back in a few months to get my adjustments.

that made me very mad and i told him and is receptionist to fukk off.

Some chiro do practice prolotherapy and have better views but the ones i saw where just lame assholles.

Please understand my frustration has i have been injured for a very long time this is taking away my life has week speak, so many times i have been told to be patient and even more without results.

I wasted all my thirties and in 3 years will be 40 years old, when i was younger i was competing in Tae Kwon Do did very well, i was weight training 4-6 times per week, manage to keep my bodyweight in a good range and my body fat too.

Over the last 8 years its been very hard to train, my bodyweight has gone from 180 pounds to sometimes 230 pounds.

Now with the help of prolotherapy i can do a lot more and was able to get down to 208, still want to try and get down to 180 again.

please dont group us all together. guy should have sent you to an ortho if he couldnt help. conservative care doesnt work in a tinely fashion, you have to refer out. i dont know your case so i cant comment on specifics, but it sounds like you got a raw deal from 2 idiots.

[BrokenBricks]

md's dont misdiagnose? is that what you are saying? lol come on, get out of here. get off the medical soap box and quit pointing fingers. misdiagnosis happens on both sides of the fence. i some how doubt that the majority of your cases are chiropractic errors.

No, that is *not* what I am saying. MDs miss things, no doubt. But there is no one else with the training. People come in *dying*, every day. You get the education, you try to do the best you can. When a DC says "Well this is not appendicitis" or "This is not MI" they are not simply making a potential error, they are making statements that they have no business making in the first place.

Whether it is the majority of patients or 1%, it is too many. It should never happen becuase DC should not be ruling out medical disease.

All you need to say is "Yeah, some over reach and practice beyond their skills. I stick within the scope of my eduction, personally." Simple.

[BrokenBricks]

ever feel like the job owns you more than you love the job? just curious.

Thank you. But no, I am comfortable. Right now I am in residency and so I work much more than the attending physicians. But the hours are very variable depending on the specialty. As an ER doc there is no call, it is shift work. You can work more or less at your discretion. But it is in the ER and not like clinic work that the family doc does. Different stress. Family docs for the most part are treating things like HTN, diabetes, various pains, viral illness...things which won't kill you at all or will take decades to do their damage. While half of the ER patients should not have come in in the first place a few per shift are dying. In the ER people are going to die in 10 minutes, or in 12 hours....that sort of thing. Much different personality who goes into ER than other specialties like ophthalmology.

Does the job own me. I would say it does. It is something that comes home with you. Always feeling like there is so much more to learn. Never feeling like you know it all. Constant learning.

[MuscleScience]

Thank you. But no, I am comfortable. Right now I am in residency and so I work much more than the attending physicians. But the hours are very variable depending on the specialty. As an ER doc there is no call, it is shift work. You can work more or less at your discretion. But it is in the ER and not like clinic work that the family doc does. Different stress. Family docs for the most part are treating things like HTN, diabetes, various pains, viral illness...things which won't kill you at all or will take decades to do their damage. While half of the ER patients should not have come in in the first place a few per shift are dying. In the ER people are going to die in 10 minutes, or in 12 hours....that sort of thing. Much different personality who goes into ER than other specialties like ophthalmology.

Does the job own me. I would say it does. It is something that comes home with you. Always feeling like there is so much more to learn. Never feeling like you know it all. Constant learning.

The more you learn the more you figure out how much you still dont know.

[Kratos]

another example
"Todd Albert, MD"

"This is a very helpful article for patients contemplating lumbar fusion surgery. Patients with back and/or leg pain should attempt prolonged NON-OPERATIVE treatment prior to embarking on a path toward lumbar fusion. Remember that fusion will be much more helpful for certain diagnoses (degenerative spondylolisthesis, isthmic spondylolisthesis, and documented instability) and not so predictable for others (degenerative disc disease without instability)."

.

I've met that guy, he's a top notch surgeon.

[Kratos]

what would you do for someone with back pain broken bricks? What course of action do you advocate?

[MuscleScience]

what would you do for someone with back pain broken bricks? What course of action do you advocate?

I know what I would ask for if I had back pain. Percocet and lots of it....

[towtheline]

No, that is *not* what I am saying. MDs miss things, no doubt. But there is no one else with the training. People come in *dying*, every day. You get the education, you try to do the best you can. When a DC says "Well this is not appendicitis" or "This is not MI" they are not simply making a potential error, they are making statements that they have no business making in the first place.

Whether it is the majority of patients or 1%, it is too many. It should never happen becuase DC should not be ruling out medical disease.

All you need to say is "Yeah, some over reach and practice beyond their skills. I stick within the scope of my eduction, personally." Simple.

you said a DC shouldnt rule out a disease and I agree, but I feel that way about a lot of MD, as it appears statistics arent in your favor, lets look at one or two of many things: Abtibiotics, why give them knowing with your expertise how and what they work on(virus/bacteria). So are you reaching beyond your scope or just helping those pharm. comps?:

"Antibiotic resistance comes mainly because of inappropriate or improper use of antibiotics by physicians. Some 150 million prescriptions are written annually in this country. And 60 percent of them — that translates to 90 million prescriptions — are for antibiotics. Of those, 50 million are absolutely unnecessary or inappropriate."
— Dr. Philip Tierno, director of clinical microbiology and diagnostic immunology at New York University Medical Center.

[towtheline]

competency of our physicians? Remember, ERs are full of dying patients, misdiagnosed chiro patients, I am looking for those statistics.

In 2000, a presidential task force labelled medical errors a "national problem of epidemic proportions." Members estimated that the "cost associated with these errors in lost income, disability, and health care costs is as much as $29 billion annually." That same year the Institute of Medicine released an historic report, "To err is human: building a safer health system." The report's authors concluded that 44,000 to 98,000 people die each year as a result of errors during hospitalization. They noted that "even when using the lower estimate, deaths due to medical errors exceed the number attributable to the 8th-leading cause of death." The addition of non-hospital errors may drive the numbers of errors and deaths much higher. As the authors note, the hospital data "offer only a very modest estimate of the magnitude of the problem since hospital patients represent only a small proportion of the total population at risk, and direct hospital costs are only a fraction of total costs."

[towtheline]

Some numberssorry,too little time to fix graph)

Table Of Iatrogenic Deaths In The United States
(Deaths induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by medical treatment or diagnostic procedures)
Condition Deaths Cost Author
Adverse Drug Reactions 106,000 $12 billion Lazarou (1) Suh (49)
Medical error 98,000 $2 billion IOM (6)
Bedsores 115,000 $55 billion Xakellis (7) Barczak (8)
Infection 88,000 $5 billion Weinstein (9) MMWR (10)
Malnutrition 108,800 — Nurses Coalition (11)
Outpatients 199,000 $77 billion Starfield ( 12) Weingart (1, 12)
Unnecessary Procedures 37,136 $122 billion HCUP(3, 13)
Surgery-Related 32,000 $9 billion AHRQ(85)
TOTAL 783,936 $282 billion

We could have an even higher death rate by using Dr. Lucien Leape's 1997 medical and drug error rate of 3 million. (14) Multiplied by the fatality rate of 14 percent (that Leape used in 1994 (16) we arrive at an annual death rate of 420,000 for drug errors and medical errors combined. If we put this number in place of Lazorou's 106,000 drug errors and the Institute of Medicine's (IOM) 98,000 medical errors, we could add another 216,000 deaths making a total of 999,936 deaths annually.

[towtheline]

A long but interesting read:

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/medicine/usamed.htm

[BrokenBricks]

you said a DC shouldnt rule out a disease and I agree, but I feel that way about a lot of MD, as it appears statistics arent in your favor, lets look at one or two of many things: Abtibiotics, why give them knowing with your expertise how and what they work on(virus/bacteria). So are you reaching beyond your scope or just helping those pharm. comps?:

"Antibiotic resistance comes mainly because of inappropriate or improper use of antibiotics by physicians. Some 150 million prescriptions are written annually in this country. And 60 percent of them — that translates to 90 million prescriptions — are for antibiotics. Of those, 50 million are absolutely unnecessary or inappropriate."
— Dr. Philip Tierno, director of clinical microbiology and diagnostic immunology at New York University Medical Center.

It is very difficult to take you seriously when your spelling and grammar is so awful.

Each of your posts contains absurd statements with alarming frequency.

Talking about antibiotics is somewhat complicated. Quickly I will say that it makes no sense to stop using antibiotics altogether if the reasoning is that it will decrease resistance to antibiotics. What do you care what the resistance is if you don't use them? Second, the antibiotics that are over prescribed are "over prescribed" only if you take a specific view. If a women comes into my ER with a child who has a 95% chance of having a viral infection, and even if it was bacterial, those type of infections do not progress so quickly it would be dangerous to not treat *today*...if that woman comes to me and say "doctor please, I am afraid...cant you give my child something for the infection...isn't there an antibiotic to kill this?" I can say "Well mam, it turns out this is nearly always the type of thing which gets better on its own in a few days and antibiotics are not really going to do any good". But as reasonable as that sounds, very few parents are comfortable with that. "But is it POSSIBLE it could be bacterial?" "Very very unlikely, but possible" "I want everything done"....Now here I am, a quarter million in debt, in my 30s having had no income at all in my 20s, and am I really going to turn this lady down...It might take 1,000 patients with earaches before one of them really has a bad outcome without antibiotics...but all it takes is one to cost me potentially millions of dollars. So chalk up another in the list of "inappropriate antibiotics". The mother will sleep better, I will sleep better and knock on wood I have never seen an infection which, even if it was resistant to one antibiotic, was resistant to all. We are giving this lady an antibiotic that was invented before any of our parents were born. We don't throw around the big guns willy nilly.

A phase like "reaching beyond your scope" about MDs giving antibiotics....Really, are you hollow upstairs? Who's scope would giving antibiotics be within if not us?

Regarding patient deaths. First the numbers are bogus. It is absurdly difficult to figure those things out. About 2.5 million die in the US per year....nearly half are because Drs killed them? Really? Come on.

What you need to understand is that I can save your grandmothers life a dozen times...but screw up just a tiny bit, and the patient who has already been steered past death a dozen times with pacemakers, insulin, Er visits for near fatal heart failure, hip replacements, anti-coagulation for atrial fibrilation...if after all that, during on admission the medicine for her a-fib is left off the admit orders and she consequently has a huge stroke because a medical condition diagnosed by a doctor and treated by a doctor was briefly NOT treated the patient died. Well how reasonable is it to say "Look look, see how bad the profession is..*They KILLED her*..." Of course in *killing* all that done was not do the very thing you criticize us doing in the first place.


Look at a drug like coumadin for instance. It prevents blood from clotting as easily as it otherwise would. If you have atrial fibrillation, a condition which prevents the speedy passage of blood though the atria, your blood can easily clot inside the heart and sent those clots into your brain. So what has to be done is figure out how many deaths will be prevented with coumadin being given to patients with a-fib vs how many will die because of coumadin. It is not that coumadin itself is toxic in standard doses. Instead it impairs all clotting, even clotting which is useful. So is grandma has a nasty stomach ulcer, or falls down the stairs, sometimes the coumadin, becuase it slows the time it takes for the bleeding to stop, can make nearly lethal injuries *actually leathal*. So you have to weigh the risks...if you are nor prone to falls, if you do not have a history of ulcers...and so on...it is much much more likely that you will live longer on coumadin than without. So that is who gets it. Not old wobbly grandma. But when people calculate statistics what do they see in the end...here is a person who would not have died had they not been on coumadin...chalk one up for the Drs killing a guy...but is that fair? If I go into a room with 100 people, 10 of whom are going to die, and I make it so that only 2 die, did I kill those two? It depends on your point of view. But it is not reasonable to say, well then you should have done nothing.

[quarry206]

i said i would leave it alone but i had to say something....broken bricks, you are passoinate about what you believe. for whatever your reason. you believe it and yes have facts to back up your believe.. and i agree doctors do not kill 2.5 million a year. but just as you pointed out about chiropratactors shouldn't be dealing with heart attacks, well thats the patience fault for going to them for a heart attack.. just as its the patience fault for coming to the ER to get their cold looked at, and then wonder why they have an Unnecessary Procedures done, because an ER doctor has the mind set somebody is coming in with an emergency. but as i agree with you that doctors are not evil and kill everybody. i highly doubt that chiropractors daily treat people for rib problems that are having heart attacks. and most of your arguements have been against your opinion that they step out of their lane, not that they have no use. which i believe they do. a very important role. do some patiences go to them that shouldn't, yes!.. do patience go to the ER that shouldn't.. yes!.. and before u argue details of what i say, i'll go on record, i'm a network programer, while in college i was a prison guard, not a Doctor, have a router at your place needing programed, i'm your man.. but a man with a headache i'd say go take some asprin and see a doctor i don't know...

i heard a quote one time that i feel has merit here.
"to those who believe no explanation is needed, to those who don't believe no explanation is ever good enough"

you believe you are right, and where you work you might be. even one case of wrongful death is too much. and if u have seen many or even many near deaths i can understand ur dislike of the field. Doc sus even agreed with you about some of it.

but this thread went from a poster asking for advise, which Doc_sus even told him to PM him with the results so he could better understand and give an opinion... but i will take ur side it seems people are just picking at you with facts that really can be wieghed differently depending how they are shown and the context of them.

give respect to your profession and lets all walk away from this stupid debate that nobody will ever win. it only is a waste of time for people coming on this forum looking for real help and advise.

[Kratos]

I know what I would ask for if I had back pain. Percocet and lots of it....

That's fun for about a day, or until you realize taking more than a couple percs makes you feel like someone kicked you in the stomach. I'll take dilaudid if I'm going for a narc and really put myself into orbit. But that's no way to live.

Guess I'm not going to get a reply from the Doc who's focus couldn't be spine specific.

[BrokenBricks]

That's fun for about a day, or until you realize taking more than a couple percs makes you feel like someone kicked you in the stomach. I'll take dilaudid if I'm going for a narc and really put myself into orbit. But that's no way to live.

Guess I'm not going to get a reply from the Doc who's focus couldn't be spine specific.

I want to take my time writing it. I am at lunch. Ill get back to you.

I'll quickly say that as an ER doctor treating chronic benign back pain is not what *I* do. I can give you the general doctor perspective later. But in the ER I am worried about things which cause back pain that would kill you today, or within the month. Barring that, it can be left to the primary care doctor. The ER is no place for mundane pain complaints. Things like abdominal aortic aneurysms, pyelonephritis and epidural abscess kill people left and right and often "back pain" is the only complaint the patient has. That is my main focus in the ER.

[thegodfather]

Some of the statements in this thread are RIDICULOUS...It's obvious people are shooting their mouths off from anecdotal experience, with no facts to back up the shit spewing from their mouths, and with little secondary education.

Antibiotics? You want to bitch about the cost of healthcare and your rising premiums? You really hate those 4 hours wait times in the ER dont you?

I'm sure we could pin point every situation we needed antibiotics for if we cultured EVEY SINGLE PATIENT who has an infection, and then incubate the culture for X time period (usually 24 hrs), and then find out whether it's viral, fungal, or bacterial. However, that would be HUGELY inefficient, and the costs would be so prohibitive, its just unthinkable to do. But this is the difference in opinion between people who are in the know, who are educated, and who WORK in the ER, versus those who have visited the ER briefly and use their ONE experience as the basis with which to predict all future outcomes. If you saw how busy we were, and how much S*IT we have to deal with from people and their entitled attitudes that they DESERVE any drug they say they want, you might chang your tune. The fact of the matter is, when a patient comes in with "tooth pain" as they so often do when I'm in the ER, we give them their percocet and get them out of the door. Why? 99% of them do not have any actual legitimate pain, they want their drugs. But keeping that patient there causes the staff an enormous amount of undue stress, as these people often cause a huge scene, make other patients uncomfortable, and have some ambulance chasing lawyer right down the street waiting to sue every staff member that so much as breathed next to that patient. What happens if we argue with that patient? We keep you, with a legitimate medical problem, in the waiting area while we fight with a drug seeker. Additionally, what about the 1% of cases who do have legitimate "tooth pain," do we let them suffer because a bunch of junkies visit the ER on a regular basis? Absolutely not.


What BrokenBricks is referring to is something called DEFENSIVE MEDICINE. That means that he is forced to order CAT scans/MRI's for every patient who complains of a 'migraine' on the off chance it MIGHT be something serious. That is because of ambulance chasing lawyers who thrive on slamming the healthcare provider whenever they make a minor mistake. That is why he must prescribe the anti-biotics to the patients who fail to accept his diagnosis and ignore the many years of medical training he has. The internet has convinced patients, like one of the aforementioned posters, that they know more than medical professionals who have BASICALLY devoted 3/4 of their life to the study of medicine. Missed birthdays, missed weddings, missed nights with the one you love, missed vacations, and missed sleep.....so that you can walk into an ER at any hour of the day and be treated for punching a telephone pole after you got mad at your father in law(this happened last week).

[tcw]

This has become an amazing thread of egos and postulate "Meanderings."

I have 3 college degrees from accredited universities in the USA and earned 26 academic scholarships. Granted, my area of expertise is in Finance. However, with as much as I know in my subject area, along with my constituents, many of us could not see the bubble coming nor the implications of the subprime mess.

What does this have to do with the subject thread?

Very simple. Even so called experts make mistakes....and Gross errors at that. Guess that's why we have E&O insurance along with professional liability insurance.

Dr's, DO's, Chiro's, MDs...All of these Symbols behind names....mean nothing.

I just came from my Dr (who happens to be a DO) and we discussed my back injury. This guy is great. He didn't come at me with some pompous BS. He's basically a straight ahead Dr. with his patient’s best interest at heart.

I told him I visited a Chiro, and he didn't bat an eye. He said...."whatever helps your injury is the best solution. If you saw a witchdoctor and she sacrificed a chicken and cast a spell on you and it worked....then God Bless You."

Meanwhile, he prescribed what he thought might help and sent me on my way.

You can wipe your ass with your degrees and name symbols. They are good for getting hits with dumb chicks and the ignorant....but in the real world ...we've heard it all before.

The fact of the matter is...no matter how many symbols you have behind your name….Medicine is not an exact Science…and we all have to live with that Fact.

~TW

[BrokenBricks]

Dr's, DO's, Chiro's, MDs...All of these Symbols behind names....mean nothing.

The fact of the matter is...no matter how many symbols you have behind your name….Medicine is not an exact Science…and we all have to live with that Fact.

~TW

You are absolutely right. The letters only describe what eduction you have. They only describe the amount of experience you have. But what is that worth? Does it mean anything? I know when *I* get shot I'm not going to see some know it all uppity doctor..I'm going to see a plumber..I mean..its not like there is any science to this...its not like anything doctors do is based on evidence..nope, the plumber ought to be able to handle my gun shot wound to the chest just as well as anyone...

Or maybe I will go see a guy who randomly capitalizes words like "Science", "Facts" and "Symbols" for no reason.

The reality that humans, all human, make errors is evidence that *any* human is as capable as any other human at performing a given task? Do you think before you speak?

[thegodfather]

TCW....it has so much less to do with letters and more to do with.........Unless you have walked a mile in someones shoes, dont pretend to know the kind of responsibilities that go along with making life or death decisions as part of your everyday job. Dont pretend to know the kind of pressures and workloads that these people work under on a daily basis, and dont try to compare 3 degree's in Womens Studies and Art History to that of a medical professional.

[johnsiegal]

Funny how the health care professionals are so offended when someone challenges their knowledge base and credentials.

I don't see where this guy is pretending to be anything but a health patient client who's giving his opinion and some "so-called" health care pro wants to belittle his analogy.

The problem with many people in the Medical field is that they think they are so much smarter than everyone else....(as evidenced by the last two posts)....trust me they are not. There are plenty of arrogant Dr’s who kill and maim their patients. A lot of souls put their trust in someone's hands who boasted of degrees and symbols behind their names and yet turned out to be incompetent.

Everyone who is licensed as a professional (whether it be an MD, CPA, Aty, hairdresser, etc) is presumed to have some level of competency in their designated profession (as evidenced by passing a state board exam). But competency does not equal wisdom nor skill nor longevity in their chosen field.

Its obvious to the reader of this post.

Why one type of Dr.'s gets offended because he contemplates his knowledge is greater than someone who comes from a different school....is just plain ego machismo stupidity.

TCW....it has so much less to do with letters and more to do with.........Unless you have walked a mile in someones shoes, dont pretend to know the kind of responsibilities that go along with making life or death decisions as part of your everyday job. Dont pretend to know the kind of pressures and workloads that these people work under on a daily basis, and dont try to compare 3 degree's in Womens Studies and Art History to that of a medical professional.

[George Dubya]

Sound like the medical profession might be too much preasure for you Bo…

If I were you, I would get out.

Maybe try something in the Women’s Studies field.

I hear you can have your choice of psychotic chicks and mental cases.

TCW....it has so much less to do with letters and more to do with.........Unless you have walked a mile in someones shoes, dont pretend to know the kind of responsibilities that go along with making life or death decisions as part of your everyday job. Dont pretend to know the kind of pressures and workloads that these people work under on a daily basis, and dont try to compare 3 degree's in Womens Studies and Art History to that of a medical professional.

[Doc.Sust]

lol, wow this thread has taken an ugly left turn...