Is a herniation/degenerative L5 a death sentence?

**theforce3169** · 09-14-2008, 11:08 PM

Hello, I have had a diagnosed herniated/degenerative L5 since about 7 years ago.

I've had back problems for years before, just never saw a doctor.

I guess my question lies in whether or not this condition is always going to be a factor in my ability to exercise..

Seems like a dumb question because I have already been dealing with it for over 20 years.

I guess that I am just frustrated and wish that there was something that I could do or take for it.....

Pain Management (pain pills) don't work after awhile anyhow. The only medicine that ever worked was Fentanyl which is Oxycontin. The only problem (besides being addictive) is that even though it takes away the pain you can't do strenuous exercise on it. Being that it is a transdermal patch, the more I sweat, the more was released and got me sick......

Anyways, does anyone have experience with their L5?

Does anyone have any experience that would give me hope?????

**TranscriptionFactor** · 09-15-2008, 01:49 AM

how about a discectomy operation? I'm sure you have dealt with orthopedic surgeons and/or neurosurgeons, what do they say?
Do you have radiculopathy - pain down the back of your leg and or weakness of your big toe ...or is it only low back pain?
I hope you are entirely off Oxy's or other narcotic - that is horrible for long term pain mgmt.

When exercising, what ex. bothers you?

I would think squats, deads and heavy bench might irritate it, as well as heavy mil. press

**Iced696** · 09-15-2008, 03:58 AM

It's NOT a death sentence. Literally everyone develops degenerative disc disease to one degree or another through the course of their lifetime and most people are not even aware of it. It's part of the aging process. Additionally, there are millions of people who have herniated discs that lead a normal life and even continue to lift. You will have to establish how bad yours are and possibly seek some other forms of treatment in the future. I have two, one at L4 & L5, and like many others, have slight degenerative disc disease. I took the epidural route and got the shots. That was over 5 years ago and I still squat and dead lift, not heavy mind you, but with no pain from my back at all. It will force you to re-evaluate and more importantly, lift with very strict form. Normally the epidurals are not long term but I have had very good luck with them. Now my shoulder, that's another story altogether. But follow your docs advice and listen to your body.

**TranscriptionFactor** · 09-15-2008, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by theforce3169

Hello, I have had a diagnosed herniated/degenerative L5 since about 7 years ago.

I've had back problems for years before, just never saw a doctor.

I guess my question lies in whether or not this condition is always going to be a factor in my ability to exercise..In short, yes

Seems like a dumb question because I have already been dealing with it for over 20 years.

I guess that I am just frustrated and wish that there was something that I could do or take for it.....as correctly stated above, Epidural corticosteroids and or facet joint injections are first line interventions....if very herniated and radiculopathy present, discectomy....other options - spinal cord stimulator or intrathecal pump for low back pain...not recommended IMO is spinal fusion which generally has a poor result

Pain Management (pain pills) don't work after awhile anyhow. The only medicine that ever worked was Fentanyl which is Oxycontin. The only problem (besides being addictive) is that even though it takes away the pain you can't do strenuous exercise on it. Being that it is a transdermal patch, the more I sweat, the more was released and got me sick......

Anyways, does anyone have experience with their L5?

Does anyone have any experience that would give me hope?????how severe is your pain? you should definitely be able to do most lifts

..answers in bold

**yannick35** · 09-28-2008, 03:27 PM

What matters now is that you get pain free, and remain that way, who cares about squatting and deadlifting, i injured myself doing theses and will never do them again.

Been having pains for 8 years now, MRI revealed L4L5 L5S1 discopathy but that is not the cause of my pain. Weak core muscles, lax ligaments and to many chiropratic adjustement cause my spin to be instable.

Of course you need to readjust your training, right now i am walking until i finish my prolotherapy treatments and will see where i go from there.

Inversion table, spin decompression, glucosamine, MSM, collagen supplements are all things you should be looking into along some proper treatments.

If you do get surgery then core training for lower back and abs should also be done daily.

They say that most stronger abs are a must when you are injured in the back because they are the muscles that support the spin has well.

Visit rebuildyourback.com i bought the program 20$ and its awsome.

Good luck i feel your pain.

**MuscleScience** · 09-28-2008, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by yannick35

What matters now is that you get pain free, and remain that way, who cares about squatting and deadlifting, i injured myself doing theses and will never do them again.

Been having pains for 8 years now, MRI revealed L4L5 L5S1 discopathy but that is not the cause of my pain. Weak core muscles, lax ligaments and to many chiropratic adjustement cause my spin to be instable.I dont think so

Of course you need to readjust your training, right now i am walking until i finish my prolotherapy treatments and will see where i go from there.

Inversion table, spin decompression, glucosamine, MSM, collagen supplements are all things you should be looking into along some proper treatments.

If you do get surgery then core training for lower back and abs should also be done daily.

They say that most stronger abs are a must when you are injured in the back because they are the muscles that support the spin has well.

Visit rebuildyourback.com i bought the program 20$ and its awsome.

Good luck i feel your pain.

I think you should leave advice on rehab to professionals, your anatomy is a little lacking. No offense of course but your giving only have truths.

***Doc.Sust*** · 09-30-2008, 06:15 AM

chiro adjustment make the spine instable? that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard because it isnt true and instable isnt a word!!!!

and l5 herniation isnt a death sentence, i know a lot of lifters who are fine and continue to lift with multiple herniations

**kickinit** · 10-11-2008, 09:17 PM

I have the same thing actually, along with Osteoarthritis starting.

There is a machine at my gym that makes it feel soooooo much better since sit-ups help but can also cause alot of pain or if your in pain arent possible. No matter how I feel I can do this machine for my oblics (im tired) and its AWESOME! I will try and find a pic tomorrow,.

**lovbyts** · 10-15-2008, 06:49 AM

Herniated L3 & L4 20 years ago, had surgery 3 years ago. It was great, took about 1 1/2 yrs to fully recover 99.5%
Herniated L5 1 year ago

Had surgery 10 day later. Worst pain I have ever been in, both sciatic nerves where pinched, both legs/feet numb. Could not sit, stand, walk for more than 30 sec. I could NOT even sit on the can to take a sh*t, honestly it was that bad.

3 vicodine 750 mg at one time + 1 Valium + 1 morphine and I could sleep but not walk, stand or sit.
Surgery helped 90%
All depends on your situation.

**spywizard** · 10-15-2008, 09:48 AM

the L area i can't speak too greatly.. my injury was to the t3 area..

try not being able to hold your head up..

docs finally fixed with get this.. steroid injections.. yep.. after 2 yrs of pain and seeing doc after doc..

**kickinit** · 10-15-2008, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Herniated L3 & L4 20 years ago, had surgery 3 years ago. It was great, took about 1 1/2 yrs to fully recover 99.5%
Herniated L5 1 year ago

Had surgery 10 day later. Worst pain I have ever been in, both sciatic nerves where pinched, both legs/feet numb. Could not sit, stand, walk for more than 30 sec. I could NOT even sit on the can to take a sh*t, honestly it was that bad.

3 vicodine 750 mg at one time + 1 Valium + 1 morphine and I could sleep but not walk, stand or sit.
Surgery helped 90%
All depends on your situation.

I feel your pain man, when I first got in my car accident and found I had 2 discs that herniated. I had a neck brace, staples in my head and shit and I was walking to the bedroom after being on the couch for like a week and not really being able to move. It happened overseas and they recommended an extended hospital stay but I couldnt speak the language good. Anyway I was walking to the bedroom and went flat on my face with no warning, about a week later samething when trying to change a light bulb for my wife, right off the chair no warning again just complete loss of mobility. About a month later I was a work no problems walking to break I went right down to 1 knee, my legs just stopped but my body kept going. this happened off and on for a while and the pain was surreal. Just about every 6 months I get the big pain again, but normally its something I can take just going to the gym keeping limber and active. When i stop though or do something dumb (wrong position) boy oh boy thats some kickass pain....

**kickinit** · 10-15-2008, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by spywizard

the L area i can't speak too greatly.. my injury was to the t3 area..

try not being able to hold your head up..

docs finally fixed with get this.. steroid injections.. yep.. after 2 yrs of pain and seeing doc after doc..

Yeah I was going to say for the neck the injections seem to work better then the back, but im still going to try them. My buddy has a pinched nerve and herniation in his neck and he is doing the injections with great success.

**Kratos** · 10-15-2008, 10:41 AM

not a death sentence at all, nobody dies from pain.
fentenyl isn't oxycodone but not too far off. Living on narcs is not good.

If you can live with the pain, that's the best option. Conservative stuff like going to a chiro or some people try distraction now (not sure what the results are like, tough to trust the studies yet) basically a machine stretches you out at the disc opposite of gravity.
There are surgical procedures to help, if you can't live with it anymore. Being cut open is the last resort. I work in spine implants, the surgery is more common then you think. If you want to know more about any of the procedures let me know.

**kickinit** · 10-17-2008, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

not a death sentence at all, nobody dies from pain.
fentenyl isn't oxycodone but not too far off. Living on narcs is not good.

If you can live with the pain, that's the best option. Conservative stuff like going to a chiro or some people try distraction now (not sure what the results are like, tough to trust the studies yet) basically a machine stretches you out at the disc opposite of gravity.
There are surgical procedures to help, if you can't live with it anymore. Being cut open is the last resort. I work in spine implants, the surgery is more common then you think. If you want to know more about any of the procedures let me know.

Distraction? You mean the spinal decompression right? Like the medival rack? hehe

**lovbyts** · 10-18-2008, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by kickinit

Distraction? You mean the spinal decompression right? Like the medival rack? hehe

Yes he is talking about spinal decompression. I did try it once before my last surgery and if I was not in such a bad way I think it may have helped but i had pieces inside that shattered and pushing against my sciatic nerves. Even the Chiropractor after seeing my xrays said I may get some relieve but not much

I would try it again (Spinal decompression) if my insurance covered it but it's expensive so I am going to get another inversion table.

**Kratos** · 10-18-2008, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by kickinit

Distraction? You mean the spinal decompression right? Like the medival rack? hehe

distraction
1. diversion of attention.
2. separation of joint surfaces without rupture of their binding ligaments and without displacement.
3. surgical separation of the two parts of a bone after it is transected.

yeah, exactly, the medival rack...the new ones can target a specific disc space. The goal is buy pulling the disc apart in a controled way, possibly the result is decompression of the dura or nerve roots. When you talk about decompression, usually you're talking about a surgical procedure where they are picking the disc out to release pressure on the nerves. The intended result is the same though. Some people have claimed to get relief from this, and even if it buys you some time before you need surgical intervention it might be worth it. I wouldn't expect it's a miracle cure, but surgery is no fun, I'd let them stretch me out on the medieval rack before an OR table.

**lovbyts** · 10-18-2008, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kratos

distraction
1. diversion of attention.
2. separation of joint surfaces without rupture of their binding ligaments and without displacement.
3. surgical separation of the two parts of a bone after it is transected.

yeah, exactly, the medival rack...the new ones can target a specific disc space. The goal is buy pulling the disc apart in a controled way, possibly the result is decompression of the dura or nerve roots. When you talk about decompression, usually you're talking about a surgical procedure where they are picking the disc out to release pressure on the nerves. The intended result is the same though. Some people have claimed to get relief from this, and even if it buys you some time before you need surgical intervention it might be worth it. I wouldn't expect it's a miracle cure, but surgery is no fun, I'd let them stretch me out on the medieval rack before an OR table.

I think that all depends on where you are at. I was not looking forward to my first surgery but after 20 years of discomfort and pain it was a huge relief even the day after surgery. My last one I was looking forward to surgery like a kid looking forward to Christmas, there was nothing I wanted more from the moment I ruptured my disk (L5) until the day of surgery because nothing would relive the pain. I could not walk sit or stand before surgery, I walked away from the operating table and walked out of the hospital. It felt great to also be able to sit down on the toilet for the first time in 10 days. It's amazing how little things make you happy. LOL

Most important is finding a good doctor

**Kratos** · 10-18-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

I think that all depends on where you are at. I was not looking forward to my first surgery but after 20 years of discomfort and pain it was a huge relief even the day after surgery. My last one I was looking forward to surgery like a kid looking forward to Christmas, there was nothing I wanted more from the moment I ruptured my disk (L5) until the day of surgery because nothing would relive the pain. I could not walk sit or stand before surgery, I walked away from the operating table and walked out of the hospital. It felt great to also be able to sit down on the toilet for the first time in 10 days. It's amazing how little things make you happy. LOL

Most important is finding a good doctor

No doubt, it depends where you are. I understand how intense the pain can be, I had a back injury that kept me in bed for a week. It was muscle related and I understand disc related pain is much more intense. One neuro told me if he told his patients to eat shit and it would make thier pain go away they would do it. A good doctor is very important, I know one guy who cuts on everybody cause he's greedy, and one guy who almost never operates on anything even though he should. That's if you're going to go through with the surgery. The fact he's been living with it for 7 years though, I figure he wants to try less invasive stuff first.

**kickinit** · 10-18-2008, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Yes he is talking about spinal decompression. I did try it once before my last surgery and if I was not in such a bad way I think it may have helped but i had pieces inside that shattered and pushing against my sciatic nerves. Even the Chiropractor after seeing my xrays said I may get some relieve but not much

I would try it again (Spinal decompression) if my insurance covered it but it's expensive so I am going to get another inversion table.

Yeah after my accident I saw a specialist, and he put me on that thing and stretched me and rolled my back at the sametime. Sometimes great relief sometimes great pain, I would do it too but im going in for the cortosone shot next week, so i will see how that does for now.

I bought an inversion table, its nice and I think it helps. first day was great second to 2-3 weeks I was getting pissed off wondering if it was working, but when I actually stopped for a short time no more pain.

I do a bunch of core exercises too, but shit on bad days you cant even do the most mild of them. On good days shit im doing sit-ups but try to limit it and do crunches and the other exercises.

**kickinit** · 10-23-2008, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by kickinit

Yeah after my accident I saw a specialist, and he put me on that thing and stretched me and rolled my back at the sametime. Sometimes great relief sometimes great pain, I would do it too but im going in for the cortosone shot next week, so i will see how that does for now.

I bought an inversion table, its nice and I think it helps. first day was great second to 2-3 weeks I was getting pissed off wondering if it was working, but when I actually stopped for a short time no more pain.

I do a bunch of core exercises too, but shit on bad days you cant even do the most mild of them. On good days shit im doing sit-ups but try to limit it and do crunches and the other exercises.

UPDATE* im going in for the needle, i dont know why but they said they are going to put me totally under. I have a ride home which is good, im a little nervous I havent been under for anything, i always choose to be awake... Anyway I will let you all know if it was worth in my case, its next thursday wish me luck. If it works out I know i will be doing even better in the gym YIPPY!

**kickinit** · 11-05-2008, 04:35 PM

I feel like I took over this thread but I got the nerve cortisone shot for my L4 L5, and its nice for now. No real pain, of course cortisone isnt really for pain its an anti-inflamatory but I feel about 80% now vise the 20% I was feeling everyday. Well worth the cost what ever it may turn out to be. Im going into a weight loss regiment now to help my back stay strong, and core exercises since my back doesnt hurt. I will stilll need another shot later for the degeneration of the discs but my doctor is very optimistic and after the cortison effectiveness he has my vote.

Its been a long day I know my spelling is frucked.

**yannick35** · 11-05-2008, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

chiro adjustment make the spine instable? that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard because it isnt true and instable isnt a word!!!!

and l5 herniation isnt a death sentence, i know a lot of lifters who are fine and continue to lift with multiple herniations

Hi Doc glad you could join in, i have been to 2 chiros in a year and a half and sorry not to hijack the tread or nothing but both of them never wanted me to leave, i got adjusted at least 150 times in my pelvic and neck region.

After all theses adjustments my pelvic was even worst getting out of adjustments has soon has i lifted simple things, even after my adjustments i could feel my pelvic starting to get out of alignment.

I went into sport medecin and prolotherapy that fixed my back pain and neck pain issues one sense for all, it is a proven fact that to many chiro adjustments will make your body worst then better. I am the living proof of this.

You are right about hernia many people have them and dont even feel any pain, i have 2 discopathy L4L5 and L5S1 check out my other post i posted my MRI.

***FireGuy*** · 11-05-2008, 08:08 PM

Herniated 2 discs, L5-S1 and C6-C7. The C6-C7 was the worst pain imaginable. Shooting pain down the back, triceps and complete numbness of the hands. Had a microdiscectomy on the lower and 5 years later fusion on the upper. Walked out the same day on both and was in the gym doing light stuff within a week. 95% plain alleviation after each. Able to do heavy squats and deadlifts within 8 months pain free.

**Kratos** · 11-05-2008, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by yannick35

Hi Doc glad you could join in, i have been to 2 chiros in a year and a half and sorry not to hijack the tread or nothing but both of them never wanted me to leave, i got adjusted at least 150 times in my pelvic and neck region.

After all theses adjustments my pelvic was even worst getting out of adjustments has soon has i lifted simple things, even after my adjustments i could feel my pelvic starting to get out of alignment.

I went into sport medecin and prolotherapy that fixed my back pain and neck pain issues one sense for all, it is a proven fact that to many chiro adjustments will make your body worst then better. I am the living proof of this.

You are right about hernia many people have them and dont even feel any pain, i have 2 discopathy L4L5 and L5S1 check out my other post i posted my MRI.

There are some shady chiro's out there, more salesmen then anything. But there are some good ones too. It's worth a try, surgery is not a miracle cure. Conservative should always be the first course of action. Just be smart enough to know when it's time to try something else. MRI has high false positive rate.

**Kratos** · 11-05-2008, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by FireGuy1

Herniated 2 discs, L5-S1 and C6-C7. The C6-C7 was the worst pain imaginable. Shooting pain down the back, triceps and complete numbness of the hands. Had a microdiscectomy on the lower and 5 years later fusion on the upper. Walked out the same day on both and was in the gym doing light stuff within a week. 95% plain alleviation after each. Able to do heavy squats and deadlifts within 8 months pain free.

In the case of cervical spine, surgical action is a very good course. High success rate, high fusion rate, and something that should be taken care of if it doesn't resolve itself fairly quickly depending on how bad the impingment is. Good to hear the micro-disc worked out for ya.

**lovbyts** · 11-05-2008, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by FireGuy1

Herniated 2 discs, L5-S1 and C6-C7. The C6-C7 was the worst pain imaginable. Shooting pain down the back, triceps and complete numbness of the hands. Had a microdiscectomy on the lower and 5 years later fusion on the upper. Walked out the same day on both and was in the gym doing light stuff within a week. 95% plain alleviation after each. Able to do heavy squats and deadlifts within 8 months pain free.

That is good to hear, I may be looking at having L5-S1 fused due to continuing pain 1 year after surgery. I lost 3/4 of my disk due to herniation.

I had MRI yesterday 1 yr after surgery so we will know soon.

**pumbertot** · 11-06-2008, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

That is good to hear, I may be looking at having L5-S1 fused due to continuing pain 1 year after surgery. I lost 3/4 of my disk due to herniation.

I had MRI yesterday 1 yr after surgery so we will know soon.

just deadlift heavy. 300kg deadlifts autofused my L5/S1.lol.
oh and gave me minor hernation in all discs from C to L4/5 where there is a nice bulge that impinges on the root nerve. my teeter hangup works miracles, i use it 4-5 times/day inverting for 5-10 minutes each time. it allows me to still squat 200kg relatively painfree, cant recommend it enough.

**yannick35** · 11-06-2008, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by pumbertot

just deadlift heavy. 300kg deadlifts autofused my L5/S1.lol.
oh and gave me minor hernation in all discs from C to L4/5 where there is a nice bulge that impinges on the root nerve. my teeter hangup works miracles, i use it 4-5 times/day inverting for 5-10 minutes each time. it allows me to still squat 200kg relatively painfree, cant recommend it enough.

Posture pump, inversion table and lumbar extender, also one great website to visite

rebuildyourback.com

**johnsiegal** · 12-11-2008, 08:28 AM

yannick...that's a really good site...thanks!

**yannick35** · 12-11-2008, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Doc.Sust

chiro adjustment make the spine instable? that is the dumbest thing i have ever heard because it isnt true and instable isnt a word!!!!

and l5 herniation isnt a death sentence, i know a lot of lifters who are fine and continue to lift with multiple herniations

Defending your profession has always i am a computer technicien guess i can start defending windows vista and saying its the best OS up to date NOTE

**yannick35** · 12-11-2008, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by johnsiegal

yannick...that's a really good site...thanks!

dean Moyer the guy that made the site went to a chiro for 10 years, he got sucked in has many people do, paying so much money for limited benefits.

Chiropratic and to many adjustments will make your ligament laxity worst.

I am the living proof of this, my pelvic got unaligned when i was squatting and deadlifting 8 years ago, i went to the chiro then 2 of them one got me worst then i was, the adjustments felt great but 2 days later the pain came back.

I did everything they told me rested my body, stop training and walked, only walked but still i could feel the pain in the lower back in the spine.

At that time me and my current girlfriend moved to another place and i found a french osteopath that readjusted my pelvic one time, the pain went away and it never came back in the spine.

Cut a long story short i went to see a lot more speclist who had the answer, 2 years ago one of my friend who was sucked on chiropractic because at one point coming back from a trip is hand was jammed and the chiro popped it up relieving the pain instantly gave me is card.

I went to see this guy for a year, asked questions never got answers, why do you have to adjust my pelvic 3 times a week? why doesnt it stay adjusted? WELL..... it needed to be adjusted, at some point it will stay adjusted, same has my neck and upper back.

After a year i got mad and said to send me elsewhere, he sent me to another chiro.... i was dumb them to go there, he was another arrogant prick.

After 6 months with him and of course progress from xrays yeah right, i went into sport medecin and told him to fkk off with is adjustments, from sport medecin i was sent to this private clinic and got my prolotherapy treatments.

Best thing ever, some people will get benefits from chiropratic adjustents for sure but how many will get permanent relief not much.