Lower Back experience needed.

[RangerDanger830]

Hello everyone, it seems after many years in the military, poor genetics, and lifting are finally catching up to me. I apologize but this is going to be long because I am a thoroughly detailed person.

It all started in 2009. My lower back hurt all of the time. I drank soda so I assumed I had kidney stones. The pain would come and go so I attributed that to my diet getting better or worse due to kidney stone inducing drink intake. Well as I am having an appendectomy done in September of 2012 my doctor tells me that I do not have any kidney stones at all but I have a bulged disc between my L4-L5. He also says the disc has signs of degeneration but could not tell me how much. From there, the last two years have been hell with the back pain progressing to a point to nearly constant.

As of a few weeks ago the pain has gotten to the point to where more than 10mins in my car will kill me. I have bucket seats and the lumbar support sucks. Sitting in any chair with proper posture kills me also. It usually aches for an hour or two after I do either of those activities. The interesting part is, I have never had a problem in the gym or after the gym until a couple of days ago. I did abs of all things and the next day my back was killing me. I attribute the increase in pain from having it not being treated, possibly utilizing a gym routine that could put further stress on my back, possibly further degeneration of the disc, and the fact that I have been continuing to gain weight from multiple cycles.

I am a combat veteran who was wounded overseas and am getting disability for a few injuries that do not affect me at all anymore, other than PTSD. So luckily, the VA pays for everything. The problem is I am waiting to get an appointment for them to look at my back and if you know anything about the VA, it could be any time between now and the Summer.

So here is the purpose of this thread. I have done extensive research on the nature of my injury but cannot find CREDIBLE information otherwise, but I trust you gentlemen/ladies and your experiences more than I trust WebMD and Bodybuilding.com to be honest. I would like to know from those of you who have had similar experiences, is this something I am going to live with or do you think surgery is an option for someone who likes to lift big things? Just looking for your opinions on my options there. But more importantly, I would like to know what exercises you people think I should avoid and which ones I should live by considering my issue?

Thank you all very much for the information. I have not spent much time in the injury board so if I missed most of the answers in a prior post in my searches then I apologize for the redundancy.

[lovbyts]

Lots of lower back pain threads on here. I cant really add to anything I have not said 1000 times.

From personal experience, use Ice, not heat. When I was only able to walk, stand for 10 minutes at a time I finally opted for surgery. best decision ever. Felt great for 2 years until I ruptured L5/S1 and had to have surgery again. Again it was great but I had no choice.

I would try a lot of icing and decompression if possible. Even get a inversion table to use at home but DONT do inverted situps. That's what I did when I ruptured L5/S1

[30blue03]

Surgery is a quick fix, usually doesn't fix the problem and injury will reoccur at same disc level or another. I know VA can be a pain to wait for so I'm going to give a quick break down if it is indeed a disc bulge.

The disc is like a jelly donut, 2 parts, the inner is the jelly gelatonus substance, and the outter is a fibrous structure holding it in place, if the outter breaks the inner will leak out. This itself can be painful, it can also hit a nerve root which can send pain down the leg.

The jelly part generally leaks out toward posteriorly or posteriorlaterally, rarely anteriorly. Think of sitting with poor posture, your lumbar curve is naturally lordotic, but when you round it the anterior portion of the vertebra push together, thus pushing the jelly inside posteriorly until eventually it breaks, if you add weights to that like squats, OH presses etc, you can imagine the force being applied to the anterior portion of the disc, squeeze a jelly donut on one end, it pops jelly out the other. Typicall L4/5 L5/S1 areas are the most common.

Ok exercise speaking you wont to focus on dynamic posture, maintaining a proper lumbar curve when lifting, when sitting..... The easiest exercise to do is to lie on your stomach... may sound crazy but this is a start, if that's pain free you can prop yourself on your elbows, this will help put pressure on the posterior vertebrae helping push that jelly leak back into the middle where it should be. Occassionally pain will increase directly at the site of the bulge when you do this, its called centralization, but pain further from the site should decrease. You will also have to give time for the fibrous outside to restructure and repair, so heavy lifting will have to be avoided for some time. Hopefully you can get into the VA soon and they can set you up with PT to help cure the problem.

PS McKenzie exercises are what I'm talking about if you want to research yourself. In your case I would say avoid flexion for the time being until your back starts to heal and then slowly reintroduce flexion lightly. Good luck

[wicked442]

I have a disc at L5/S1 that is 85% degenerated. I have pain every day all day. Bending ,twisting , just general daily things make the pain extremely bad. Dr said fusion surgery now or in about 10yrs the disc will be gone and pain will be as well. In the mean time back sqts,dead lift and other lifts that load and compress the spine cause alot of pain. I go day by day as to what lifts i can do. I also keep my core as strong as possible. The chiro helps keep me aligned and i do alot of foam rolling to keep my low back muscles loose. I dont take pain pills because that is just a band aid and not good on the liver. I dont back sqt over 200 if even that,but i changed to front sqt and worked up to 415. My wife had fusion surgery L4/L5/S1. She has more pain now,so i will never have this done. This is the worse kind of pain that affects every aspect of your life so i hope you can get some kind of relief. I just came to the realization that some lifts i cant do any longer,but i wont stop lifting till i cant at all. I really hope you figure something out. Just listen to your body and dont push it.

[RangerDanger830]

Thanks you for your replies. I have never been one to use hot or cold compresses and most likely never will unless absolutely necessary. Never been a big fan, no particular reason why. I suppose it is mostly due to them not being available to me during most of my day, I give a lot of presentations, speeches, lectures, meetings, and a ton of other monotonous ceremonial wastes of time.

I do avoid some exercises and since then I have noticed substantially lessened pain. I do have perfect form with every exercise I do, I have always placed emphasis on that. I know poor form would just add to my problems. I do appreciate the anatomy lesson, these are things I started researching a few weeks ago and since then have changed my routine in the gym up a little more. I know exactly what exercises you are talking about, the Army had me do a couple. I didn't know what they were called though.

I do feel better after the decompression chairs. I was doing decline sit-ups though, I figured that would help. Well that may have been the culprit to my recent flare up in pain now that you mention it. i was doing decline sit-ups with a weighted ball, bouncing it off the wall in front of me. That was something I didn't do normally. I will stop doing those. I used to squat, then I lowered the weight, now I don't do barbell squats at all. I still do body weight squats and sometimes I will hold a little weight with a dumbbell. I still enjoy some good mornings as they seem to strengthen the lower back muscles without putting too much pressure on them.

I have heard plenty of reasons not to have the fusion surgery but then again, I do not want to get ahead of myself. I am unable to make up my mind until I get a thorough evaluation and can weight my options. The pain sucks sometimes but in no way does it warrant surgery unless the particular procedure is low risk with a high chance of improvement, not usually what I see from back surgeries. I am still young and can tolerate quite a bit more pain before I throw the towel in yet.

One thing I have done the last few months though is cut weight. I want to stay fairly muscular but I have gone down to 215ish, pending a current cycle. I do not think I will ever let myself get much bigger and this may be my last cycle of AAS.

[wicked442]

Sounds like you have a good handle on what you can and cant do. Good luck and stay strong bro.

[lovbyts]

I would not suggest the fusion surgery either. My doctor said I would probably need it also but I have heard from to many people that over time the disc will fuse themselves if they are bone on bone.

Mine is actually getting a little bette over time/years. When I use TB500 regularly it seems to help. I am still experimenting with other things to see what helps and reading the forum looking for answers.

I tried most everything for 20+ years before I did my 1st surgery and my 2nd one was either do it due it rupturing and me being 80% paralyzed and in the worse pain I could imagine or ending it because I could not live like that. I was not able to stand more than 30 seconds without passing out. I could not even sit for 30 seconds. I could only lay on the ground. That means not even a potty break so use your imagination... Not a fun time. Surgery was a life saver literally for me.

[RangerDanger830]

Thanks for the input, I appreciate the kind words Wicked. I am in by no means as bad off as you were lov so I am going to appreciate my good fortune so far. The pain is very manageable as long as I work out within reason. The last few weeks I have seen a steady improvement as I work out reasonably. At this point I am on a cycle of Tren and have cut my calories closer to my TDEE so the cycle has become more of a cutting cycle than bulking at this point. That was not my original intention but the more I think about it, the more I do not want to be any bigger. After this I may spend the rest of my days maintaining what I have worked for so I am not loading up my spine more than it already is. When I first got in the gym I weighed 144lbs. At 217ish I have come a long way. I think my genes just weren't expecting me to get this big.

[30blue03]

Just a quick note on fusion surgery from patients I've worked with that have gone through it, it really is a last choice, there are other surgical options if therapy or other options dont work, and if your an active person fusion will not be the best bed. When you fuse vertebrae together you eliminate motion at one joint, that motion has to be made up at another joint. Often the fusion surgery may go well but because you no longer have motion at that joint (say L4/L5) you have to over compensate with motion at the joints above and below, L5/S1 L3/L4 and this just leads to a future injury at that joint. Seems like you guys have a good idea of

[wicked442]

My wife had spinal fusion L4-S1. The fusion worked but she is still in pain and nothing but problems. The drs call it failed back syndrom. This is a trash can diagnosis. The actual fusion worked but did not fix the pain problem. This made my decision for me that i will never have surgery.

[M302_Imola]

Lots of lower back pain threads on here. I cant really add to anything I have not said 1000 times.

From personal experience, use Ice, not heat. When I was only able to walk, stand for 10 minutes at a time I finally opted for surgery. best decision ever. Felt great for 2 years until I ruptured L5/S1 and had to have surgery again. Again it was great but I had no choice.

I would try a lot of icing and decompression if possible. Even get a inversion table to use at home but DONT do inverted situps. That's what I did when I ruptured L5/S1

So you would recommend someone with a L5-S1 bulge w/ sciatica getting surgery (microdisceptomy)?

[lovbyts]

So you would recommend someone with a L5-S1 bulge w/ sciatica getting surgery (microdisceptomy)?

No not necessarily if it just bulging and the sciatica can easily be fixed without surgery. I'm saying like in my case it was not just bulging, it was ruptured and pieces of the disk was causing the sciatic pain. Everyone is different. Mine was debilitating to the point I would have ended it vs living like that. I have a fairly high pain tolerance and 2, 10mg vicodine, 2 10mg morphine and I dont even remember what else several times a day didnt do much of anything to touch the pain.

I would first use ice first and foremost. If you get any relief from that in a couple of days then more than likely you wont need surgery. I would also try decompression to see if that helps but if you get an MRI and it shows it's actually ruptured I think there may be no choice. In my case there was not and it fixed the issue 90+% immediately.

I could not even stand or sit long enough to take a sh*t. Really I would have passed out from the pain before I could pass anything. Not much fun. I'm just saying dont take surgery out of the equation, it's not always a bad thing and like most anything you usually only hear about the problems because most people who have success with things just go on with their lives while those who have problems like to complain and let the whole world know.

How many people do you see on this board who say Hey, I feel good today, I'm happy, I have no problem or my cycle went great? You/we normally only hear from those who are having a problem.

[M302_Imola]

No not necessarily if it just bulging and the sciatica can easily be fixed without surgery. I'm saying like in my case it was not just bulging, it was ruptured and pieces of the disk was causing the sciatic pain. Everyone is different. Mine was debilitating to the point I would have ended it vs living like that. I have a fairly high pain tolerance and 2, 10mg vicodine, 2 10mg morphine and I dont even remember what else several times a day didnt do much of anything to touch the pain.

I would first use ice first and foremost. If you get any relief from that in a couple of days then more than likely you wont need surgery. I would also try decompression to see if that helps but if you get an MRI and it shows it's actually ruptured I think there may be no choice. In my case there was not and it fixed the issue 90+% immediately.

I could not even stand or sit long enough to take a sh*t. Really I would have passed out from the pain before I could pass anything. Not much fun. I'm just saying dont take surgery out of the equation, it's not always a bad thing and like most anything you usually only hear about the problems because most people who have success with things just go on with their lives while those who have problems like to complain and let the whole world know.

How many people do you see on this board who say Hey, I feel good today, I'm happy, I have no problem or my cycle went great? You/we normally only hear from those who are having a problem.

Totally true...thanks for the feedback. I have yet to have a MRI, but I've been dealing with sciatica for almost 4 months now. I recently switched chiro's and the new guy is way more thorough and know's his shit. As of this week the sciatica has faded some so I'm hopeful things will continue to progress and I won't be in pain much longer. I thought I knew what pain was but nerve pain is totally different. It literally felt like I had a knife in my leg while sitting and bending over to tie my shoe was a nightmare. Things are at least better now. Oh and the chiro has been doing decompression treatment on me and I've been using gravity boots to hang upside down after my workouts to decompress the spine.

[Tooth&Claw]

I'd like to add from my personal experience..

39 y.o., past years were spent mostly with computers with alot of sitting, so the low back discs started to degrade before i've noticed that.

Last summer I lifted a bike in bent position and almost the same day started to feel worse and worse in my low back. The MRI produced a picture of bulged (but not ruptured) disc L4-L5. But then and now the pain was only in that region, not hitting the nerves downwards like in many worst-case scenarios.

I am a strong skeptic and never buy into snake oil remedies. So I've ruled out the most non-scientific ones first.
Firstly, you need to ease the inflammation. Intraveneously or by taking pills.
Secondly, relieve the ligaments and other machinery from the stress. The muscles contract to protect you, blocking the bloodflow.

I was offered acupuncture (which is dubious in my opinion). Not worked. Traction table - no noticable effect.

What really helped is a delicate, soft massage (done by Thai person). Not a chiropractor, no rough stuff, when you hear crackling sounds or they twist and bend you, nothing like that. Must be very relaxing, slowly stretching the muscles in the affected area. Felt much better after that. Try it.

Of course, it's chronic and will probably stay forever, but I started with 5-6 out of 10 on the pain acuteness scale, now I estimate it as 1-2.

[Times Roman]

1) Get an inversion table and learn how to use it properly. I've seen them on Craigslist for under $50
2) MSM helps improve collagen synthesis, probably a good idea to go down that road @ 5 grams/day forever