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    Knee pain

    So, it has finally happened: at 51 years old and change, my knee is giving me the bird and telling me to chill the f out. Not sure if it is tendonitis (could be), bursitis (I don't even know for sure what that is), or oldfartitis (which if you are 'lucky', you will get to experience, too).

    I tried some Diclofenac Sodium topical over the holidays and that stuff is the bomb. Went to my doc and got a script today. Rub it on and wait about an hour, then ahh sweet relief. I can't squat right now, but hope to be able to get back to the point where I can pretty quickly.

    Anyhow, does this sound like a job for TB-500 or BPC-157 or something else? Note that I see that Mike Arnold has a TB product, though it seems pricey compared to what else I'm seeing.

    Any thoughts or input is appreciated!

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    As a follow-up, what is the current thinking on where to inject TB 500? Some of the older articles I have seen say near the injury, newer ones seem to say anywhere subq is fine.

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    I've been dealing with knee issues for a while now. About a year ago I had knee gel injections in both knees. It's called Hyaluronic Acid Injections. It's a series of 3 injections a week apart. My ortho said it's like an oil change for the knees. First set of injections my knees felt great and I decided I'd do it every 6 months, which is all it's allowed seemingly. So, 6 months later I did it again (painless really) and the results were just ok, no where near like the first series of shots. Anyway, I will continue to get them just in case.

    Re BPC and TB I've attached a couple good articles on their use. See if they relate to you. I feel they definitly helped my shoulder tear heal. I'd try to inject in the area of the injury but often times I'd just SQ it in the stomach. I really don't see how it can make much difference, imho. Personally i prefer BPC over TB.

    Another interesting and newer treatment is Zilretta, which is a slow acting cortisone injection. I just got cleared to give these a try and am waiting to get it set up with my ortho. I'll let you know how it goes.

    Hope this helps!

    https://zilretta.com/about-zilretta/


    https://www.arthritis.org/living-wit...injections.php

    https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/art...o-use-bpc-157/

    https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/art...to-use-tb-500/
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    Describe the pain in detail
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    I thought my knee was screwed. Turned out to be nerve entrapment (compartment sydrome).

    I still get it but know what to do now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Describe the pain in detail
    I was afraid someone would ask that lol! It feels like a constant ache when it is acting up, but will spike and feel kind of stabby if I do something like going DOWN stairs. Ironically, going UP does not seem to be as much of a problem. Hurts to walk on it, in fact a two mile walk Thursday was about 1 mile too far.

    There is a small bony knob in the area that seems to be normal and maybe an attachment point for a tendon or ligmament. When I am experiencing pain, I can press there and it hurts like a murf.

    It is primarily on the inside of my leg, close to the patella and originates even with the middle of the patella.

    Diclofenac topical has been a great relief. If I use the diclofenac 2 or 3 times a day, it doesn't bother me much at all.

    I have NOT tried squatting or working legs yet, but I'm heading to the gym tomorrow to see how it goes. Easy to start with, depending on the pain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    I was afraid someone would ask that lol! It feels like a constant ache when it is acting up, but will spike and feel kind of stabby if I do something like going DOWN stairs. Ironically, going UP does not seem to be as much of a problem. Hurts to walk on it, in fact a two mile walk Thursday was about 1 mile too far.

    There is a small bony knob in the area that seems to be normal and maybe an attachment point for a tendon or ligmament. When I am experiencing pain, I can press there and it hurts like a murf.

    It is primarily on the inside of my leg, close to the patella and originates even with the middle of the patella.

    Diclofenac topical has been a great relief. If I use the diclofenac 2 or 3 times a day, it doesn't bother me much at all.

    I have NOT tried squatting or working legs yet, but I'm heading to the gym tomorrow to see how it goes. Easy to start with, depending on the pain.
    Not what I had issues with.
    I dont know why but seems like every time i have joint pain its a pinched nerve etc.
    Sounds like you have a genuine bad joint though.

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    Thanks for the help, gents!

    I will look into BPC and TB a bit more and probably start that protocol. I don't think it can hurt and I have a few other minor issues it might help with. And what are our bodies if not our own personal experimental labs?

    I'm trying to get an MRI scheduled before the end of the year... I hit my out of pocket max because of hernia surgery in February so there is no cost to me for the rest of this year. Time to get ALL the tests!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    Thanks for the help, gents!

    I will look into BPC and TB a bit more and probably start that protocol. I don't think it can hurt and I have a few other minor issues it might help with. And what are our bodies if not our own personal experimental labs?

    I'm trying to get an MRI scheduled before the end of the year... I hit my out of pocket max because of hernia surgery in February so there is no cost to me for the rest of this year. Time to get ALL the tests!
    Chiro just said he can get me an mri for $350.
    Would love to but gotta get insurance so its not listed as pre existing and jack up premiums etc.

    I will love to hear how many discs in my back are shit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    I was afraid someone would ask that lol! It feels like a constant ache when it is acting up, but will spike and feel kind of stabby if I do something like going DOWN stairs. Ironically, going UP does not seem to be as much of a problem. Hurts to walk on it, in fact a two mile walk Thursday was about 1 mile too far.

    There is a small bony knob in the area that seems to be normal and maybe an attachment point for a tendon or ligmament. When I am experiencing pain, I can press there and it hurts like a murf.

    It is primarily on the inside of my leg, close to the patella and originates even with the middle of the patella.

    Diclofenac topical has been a great relief. If I use the diclofenac 2 or 3 times a day, it doesn't bother me much at all.

    I have NOT tried squatting or working legs yet, but I'm heading to the gym tomorrow to see how it goes. Easy to start with, depending on the pain.
    Thatís not ironic at all, and is to be expected. Going down stairs is higher impact AND mostly a constant series of eccentric loading on the musculature. Even people with healthy joints will feel far more wrecked from doing equal volume down as opposed to up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Chiro just said he can get me an mri for $350.
    Would love to but gotta get insurance so its not listed as pre existing and jack up premiums etc.

    I will love to hear how many discs in my back are shit.
    Dang, $350 for an MRI without insurance is pretty damn good. Is there any way of taking the test and NOT have it go into your medical history? Maybe the doc could work something out there

    Edit: is that an open MRI? I have had MRIs before and man, it was a tight fit!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    Dang, $350 for an MRI without insurance is pretty damn good. Is there any way of taking the test and NOT have it go into your medical history? Maybe the doc could work something out there

    Edit: is that an open MRI? I have had MRIs before and man, it was a tight fit!
    Thatís actually pretty standard for cash pay in my experience. When you pay up front you get the real rate. When it goes through chargemaster billing and shit is when the rates that insurance companies pay come into play and you start seeing completely stupid bills like what are all over social media.
    Shit, I had an accident that resulted in an ambulance ride, ER visit, CT scan, immunity boosters and a bunch of staples in my head. Total bill was like $975.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    Dang, $350 for an MRI without insurance is pretty damn good. Is there any way of taking the test and NOT have it go into your medical history? Maybe the doc could work something out there

    Edit: is that an open MRI? I have had MRIs before and man, it was a tight fit!
    No idea man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    That’s not ironic at all, and is to be expected. Going down stairs is higher impact AND mostly a constant series of eccentric loading on the musculature. Even people with healthy joints will feel far more wrecked from doing equal volume down as opposed to up.
    That makes sense, thanks for that info. What I didn't clarify was the significance of the difference. Like going down hurt like a murph, while going up was like 'what? no my knee is fine'

    This is really poor timing, though. I WAS enjoying a HIIT routine of 3 to 4 rounds of:
    Jogging on treadmill, with intervals - 3 minutes
    Working the 150lb punching bag (with gloves of course) - 3 minutes
    Hitting the climber, with intervals (not stair stepper, climber) - 3 minutes

    This leaves me huffing and puffing and soaked in sweat. I haven't tried it since the knee started acting up for obvious reasons. All that equipment is right there in the other room though....

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    Knee pain

    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    That makes sense, thanks for that info. What I didn't clarify was the significance of the difference. Like going down hurt like a murph, while going up was like 'what? no my knee is fine'

    This is really poor timing, though. I WAS enjoying a HIIT routine of 3 to 4 rounds of:
    Jogging on treadmill, with intervals - 3 minutes
    Working the 150lb punching bag (with gloves of course) - 3 minutes
    Hitting the climber, with intervals (not stair stepper, climber) - 3 minutes

    This leaves me huffing and puffing and soaked in sweat. I haven't tried it since the knee started acting up for obvious reasons. All that equipment is right there in the other room though....
    Replace the jogging with a rower or stationary bike and you can get the same thing without beating up your knees.
    Seriously, fuck extended running. The number of injuries from it is absurd when you compare it to even professional Strongman and football.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    No idea man
    You might be able to book the MRI yourself, take the results to the doc and say something like 'just look at this doc and tell me what you think' then lose the records. IDK but probably depends on how good the relationship with your doc is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    Replace the jogging with a rower or stationary bike and you can get the same thing without beating up your knees.
    Seriously, fuck extended running. The number of injuries from it is absurd when you compare it to even professional Strongman and football.
    I wasn't really thinking of 3 minutes at a time as extended running but you might be on to something there. I do have a trainer I could set up one of my bikes on but space becomes an issue. Might be able to ride outside then come in and do the other exercises in a round. Thanks!

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    Update:
    Went for a two mile walk yesterday instead of trying to work legs with the weights. I want to ease back. Things seemed ok - in fact, there was no bother until almost the end of the walk. Even then though, it was not painful, just a very slight ache. I went ahead and hit it with the Diclofenac when I got home, just to head off any possible issues.

    This did seem to flair up when I was visiting the Great Northern Tribes for the Festival of Thanks. That is my smart as* way of saying 'when I went home for Thanksgiving and it was cold as a murf to my Florida living as*'. MAYBE its a cold thing and maybe I got lucky and it will just go away (at least for now).

    I will likely still do the TB / BPC combo because of a few other minor issues, may log it if I do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Not what I had issues with.
    I dont know why but seems like every time i have joint pain its a pinched nerve etc.
    Sounds like you have a genuine bad joint though.
    A genuine good joint could help with the pain, but I haven't partaken since the 80's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    Seriously, fuck extended running. The number of injuries from it is absurd when you compare it to even professional Strongman and football.

    big yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    I was afraid someone would ask that lol! It feels like a constant ache when it is acting up, but will spike and feel kind of stabby if I do something like going DOWN stairs. Ironically, going UP does not seem to be as much of a problem. Hurts to walk on it, in fact a two mile walk Thursday was about 1 mile too far.

    There is a small bony knob in the area that seems to be normal and maybe an attachment point for a tendon or ligmament. When I am experiencing pain, I can press there and it hurts like a murf.

    It is primarily on the inside of my leg, close to the patella and originates even with the middle of the patella.

    Diclofenac topical has been a great relief. If I use the diclofenac 2 or 3 times a day, it doesn't bother me much at all.

    I have NOT tried squatting or working legs yet, but I'm heading to the gym tomorrow to see how it goes. Easy to start with, depending on the pain.
    Is it an abnormal protrusion on the joint? I'm 55 and have developed a few arthritic nodules, although mainly in my hands.

    Think I've used about every version of Voltaren/ diclofenac there is ....cream, pills, and injectable and it helps but it doesn't address the cause.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    Is it an abnormal protrusion on the joint? I'm 55 and have developed a few arthritic nodules, although mainly in my hands.

    Think I've used about every version of Voltaren/ diclofenac there is ....cream, pills, and injectable and it helps but it doesn't address the cause.
    I don't think so, more swollen than anything else - though I'm no doctor so take that for what it worth. It HAS gotten better since I've been back in the warm weather. I'm working on getting the MRI scheduled so I will know more then for sure.

    Diclofenac topical has been AWESOME so far, though I did not have to use it today.

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    Update: Brothers and Sisters, I may have dodged a bullet here. It seems likely that my knee pain was caused by Mamofen. I was taking low dose to assess my body's reaction. Since discontinuing it, my knee pain has subsided greatly, to the point that I no longer have to treat it. I can walk without issue and will do my first squat workout (VERY easy) today or tomorrow to check things out.

    I will do the MRI of the knee just to be sure. This isn't the first time I have had issues there, just the first time it was quite so painful. I will update with results, maybe even pics if I can!

    I'm probably going to still do a TB + BPC cycle to address some other nagging issues.

    Thanks for everyone's input!

    PS - yes I know Mamofen (Tamoxifen ) has a low incident of side effects - I guess I just got lucky :|
    Last edited by cylon357; 12-15-2019 at 10:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    Update: Brothers and Sisters, I may have dodged a bullet here. It seems likely that my knee pain was caused by Mamofen.|

    Doubtful imho. A little muscle soreness possibly, but I don't see joint pain happening. Coincidence maybe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Doubtful imho. A little muscle soreness possibly, but I don't see joint pain happening. Coincidence maybe?
    I thought so too. Then I did some digging.

    It turns out, lots of folks report this issue, especially in the cancer forums. Still, yes it COULD be coincidence but it would be a mighty big coincidence.

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    Interesting. I'll have to see if I can find something on it. With all my readings, and I read studies almost daily, serms are mostly a healthy thing for males in that they can lower BPH, obviously help with gyno issues and even lower LDL cholesterol. That said, no drug is perfect!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Interesting. I'll have to see if I can find something on it. With all my readings, and I read studies almost daily, serms are mostly a healthy thing for males in that they can lower BPH, obviously help with gyno issues and even lower LDL cholesterol. That said, no drug is perfect!
    Yeah, I seem to have hit the jackpot with regard to Tamoxifen sides. I got muscle cramps from hell with liquid tamox at 20mg/day, and apparently knee pain from mamofen tablets at 5mg / day. I have read that mamofen in particular can be worse - something about the binders in the tabs? I can probably reduce the liquid down to 10/mg day (as you suggested in another thread) and be fine. I don't think this would be a long term therapy, though if there is evidence to support BPH issues, I would be all about that.

    Most of the evidence I have seen for tamox and joint pain comes out of the breast cancer forums. I assume their doses will be higher than HRT use but still, stopping the mamofen does seem to have stopped the pain. I did my first squat workout yesterday (super light) and things went fine. A little soreness, but that is to be expected since it has been 3 weeks since I squatted (or dead lifted for that matter) because of the pain. Deadlift will likely take place this week, though I will be careful with it, too.

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    Do a little searching, you'll find info on serms for bph. It helps mitigate prostate growth and reduces inflammation. Win-win.
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    Simple x-rays should clear up a LOT of mystery here. Trust me, I’ve had both hips replaced in my 50’s.

    MRI will show menicus & ligament issues.

    Guys, our joints can only take so much, then they are gone. It’s just the way it works.

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    Update: Visited the doc with the MRI results. Ain't gonna lie, this is kind of a bummer. Looks like knee surgery is in my near future. Fracture being the most concerning. I have not met with an ortho yet so maybe I will be able to dodge surgery, but a friend of mine in the medical field says it is more likely than not.



    Knee pain-cylon357kneemessedup.jpg

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    And as a follow up to other parts of the conversation....

    Long story short: the doc / facility / who the heck knows screwed up the order, so I ended up having to pay for the MRI out of pocket. That is made slightly better by the fact that the 'walk up price' is less than my out of pocket insurance price: $225 vs $350. So yeah, to @gallowmere's point above, it actually IS cheaper without insurance.

    Also, maybe the mamofen is blameless in this scenario but the pain has been way, way less since coming off of it. I will likely give it another go at a later date, have to figure out what to do re: surgery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    And as a follow up to other parts of the conversation....

    Long story short: the doc / facility / who the heck knows screwed up the order, so I ended up having to pay for the MRI out of pocket. That is made slightly better by the fact that the 'walk up price' is less than my out of pocket insurance price: $225 vs $350. So yeah, to @gallowmere's point above, it actually IS cheaper without insurance.

    Also, maybe the mamofen is blameless in this scenario but the pain has been way, way less since coming off of it. I will likely give it another go at a later date, have to figure out what to do re: surgery.
    Dude, this is NOT bad, in fact it is good. Sending you a pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proximal View Post
    Dude, this is NOT bad, in fact it is good. Sending you a pm.

    Damn Prox, share your thoughts! We value your imput, especially with your background!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Damn Prox, share your thoughts! We value your imput, especially with your background!
    Let me get some pics together, but my pleasure.
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    I apologize if I get too smart-ass sounding, not my intent.

    Cartilage has no feeling or pain. Itís only when it starts to wear thin or wear out completely does the bone beneath it respond with pain.

    The picture on the left would be your knee. Granted the defect (arthritis) isnít necessarily minor, but considering that it is the only defect & you are 51 and active, I think itís not something to be terribly upset about. The MRI also said that the swelling (edema) could be due to due to a bone bruise, means itís not necessarily a fracture, but even if it was it is minor.

    You will likely have continued pain and possibly need a knee replacement as you get older, but dude, many individuals are getting their knee(s) replaced at your age & younger. We overuse are joints & push them to their limit here, itís what weíve all signed up for; Iím just being very frank & no-nonsensical about it.

    The knee on the right would likely be getting a replacement because too much bone is exposed & the pain levels would be far more significant.

    One VERY positive thing is that no changes are noted where the patella sits/moves on the femur. Considering your age and that you are active, thatís pretty damn good!

    I kept my hips post surgery (my Doctor knows that I teach Anatomy). There is next to no cartilage left. Youíll know itís time for surgery when you only can walk with a cane, canít rise from sitting without help & the pain meds wonít even give you relief when you are trying to sleep.

    Let me tackle the meniscus next, but give me some time.

    I love this stuff, itís what I do and am very happy to help!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Knee pain-1432c1b5-fd97-4ee4-987d-5973d85dc4d0.jpeg  
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    Apologies, my math was wrong and I made your arthritic defect too large. It really should be closer to the area in red on this picture which clearly is even smaller.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Knee pain-e9eb907f-2b10-4806-85f5-35d08671e302.jpeg  
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    cylon357 is online now Member
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    Dang, Prox, thanks for your work here! Man, it makes me feel SOME better about these knees of mine.

    I have to admit, it took me longer than I want to say to understand what you meant by 'I kept my hips post surgery'. You mean that literally, you have your old hips in like a glass jar by the door or something?

  38. #38
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    kelkel is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
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    Thanks Prox! BTW, i go in for my Zilretta injections this coming Tuesday.
    cylon357 and Proximal like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Thanks Prox! BTW, i go in for my Zilretta injections this coming Tuesday.
    Cool! This will be your first time with the zilretta, right?

  40. #40
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    kelkel is offline HRT Specialist ~ AR-Platinum Elite-Hall of Famer ~ No Source Checks
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    Cool! This will be your first time with the zilretta, right?

    Yep. I've done the Hyaluronic Acid Gel injections twice so far. Wanted to try this out.
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