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I just wanted to ask if what I read somewhere is in fact true: that Deca is good for helping repair tendons and ligaments that have been damaged or injured. Something about colagen uptake? Please correct me if I am wrong. I also read somewhere that Equipoise is also beneficial. Can anyone else suggest any other things? I had shoulder surgery 7 months ago and when I do start training hard again and using would like to know the best things to use. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks very much.
I have used deca specifically for injuries on 2 occasions in the past, and am doing so again at the moment.
First time was following shoulder surgery, was told that the only thing that would be causing me pain during a workout was the scar tissue from the operation, so, i indulged in my first AAS cycle, deca being the main ingredient. I figured that this would ease the pain, and by time I came off the AAS, the scar tissue would have shifted and Id be good to go. It worked perfectly, and have not had any pain from the surgery ever since, which was 4 years ago.
Second time I used deca for this purpose was last year, had severe tendonitis in my left pec, and it really ruined my training. I took 10 weeks out of the gym, and spent alot of time stretching and iced the area every night pretty much. This did not help. So, i got back in the gym, started running a test/tren cycle, and threw 200mg deca in the mix every week for 12 weeks. It eased the pain whilst on, and when I came off, its been great ever since.
I am currently suffering with tendon pain in my right bicep from straining it whilst wrestling 4 months ago. I am running the same cycle as last time (tren/test/deca, although have increased the tren dosage) and I am hoping that the deca will have the same effect on my bicep pain. It has eased off alittle, and am now able to shoulder press without discomfort, aslong as my form is perfect, and the same goes for incline pressing. But, the area is still causing me discomfort, and I have been using the deca now for about 6 weeks, so I fear that it will not do the trick like in the past
I am keeping a detailed log regarding this very issue, and a month or so after the cycle, will post all my findings on this very forum.
It is my understanding that deca sends water to the joints, which in turn soothes the area. If tendonitis is the problem (inflammation of the tendon) then I believe, and have found once before, that deca could well solve the problem.
Human Growth Hormone is a good healer, and can help years=long nagging injuries to heal, but, the time frame of use, and the price, is drastically different than using deca
repair???no pain relief.....yes
I don't think deca really helps with the healing so much--at least no more than would testosterone.
As mentioned above, I think it has to do more with water in the joints, which reduces the pain.
I thought testosterone would make your tendons like your an old man.Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-steroids-questions-answers/311853-good-read-tendons-aas.html
I also read that deca doesn't atracts more water in the joints, just feels that way cause the collagen synthesizes is upgraded.
How about that statemenst ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by green22
Ding Ding
Well...I'll admit this is one area I haven't had done a large enough amount of research to say anything conclusive about. I will say this though--I have a very hard time believing that testosterone has negative effects on collagen synthesis. If taking testosterone has any negative effects, it could be because of aromatization (certain levels of estradiol inhibit collagen synthesis).Quote:
Originally Posted by TallMan
as for the deca attracting water into the joints--this might be flawed. I haven't done the appropriate research to know if it is more than just a myth. It could be that Deca has certain anti-inflammatory (immune-modulating) effects and eases joint pain.
I'd like to know more about this.
"Testosterone may mitigate, but estrogen may exacerbate, TMJ Damage..."
http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/co...ull/291/2/R343
Testosterone has been shown to totally reverse the negative side effects of estradiol on the proliferation of of type III collagen:
Savvas, M. Type III collagen content in the skin of postmenopausal women receiving Estradiol and testosterone implants. British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology. 1993: 100:154-156.
--This is one of the references in the book I am looking at that tells me that testosterone is good for your joints. It also says that estradiol hampers connective tissue proliferation, and that progesterone has strong stimulatory effects on connective tissue, which would explain why deca is said to help with joint pain (Deca is a progestin).
glad I found that.
So what your saying(which i have suspected myself)..is that Test is actually positive for connestive tissue and healing injuries..right??Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
I know of others who have said that Test was great for there injuries as you took a moderate dose.
Yes, I remember one of my doctors telling me that it was anabolic and helped connective tissue...now I found the book that I had read it in also...testosterone is positive for joint injuries. Now, I don't think that if you take large amounts of testosterone all your injuries are magically going to repair themselves, but I think that having low testosterone levels can predispose you to poor joint recovery after workouts. Not only that, but testosterone increases your secretion of hgh by blocking somatostatin (somatotropin releasing inhibiting factor), so I knew that it is positive for connective tissue repair in that respect...Quote:
Originally Posted by fossilfuel7
Deca is also really good for joints, apparently because it is a progestin.
This is great info. I plan on doing GH for at least a year by spring for a number of nagging tendon issues like horrible tedonosis in both elbows that has been plauging me for 5 years now.Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
I don't have low Test for my age..but, I still am interested in combiningTest with GH for a maximum supraphysiological healing effect.
What are your thoughts(please)?
I know how hard it is to deal with nagging injuries...it really sucks. I've been looking into getting my own injuries to heal, and there is no better hormone to take than hgh--if anything can assist your body's healing it would be hgh/IGF-1. Deca also seems to help people, and testosterone is positive as well.
But I honestly don't think that any of them will necessarily heal your injuries and make them like new. I can see that they would help...maybe your injuries won't hurt as much, and there might actually be a strengthening of the tendons and ligaments, but I don't know if any of these will give you brand new joints unless maybe you run hgh for a year at 20IUs a day.
That's what I know...it's not as much as I'd like...the problem is that there isn't much in the way of articles published in medical journals that have investigated this topic adequately. There are definitely articles showing how these hormones help connective tissue proliferation, but I don't think that there are any articles that specifically take MRIs of damaged ligaments and joints of people on hgh or testosterone and compare them to controls on nothing...you can only do your best, run your cycle, and see what happens.
My opinion of including the testosterone? I probably wouldn't run it if I were just looking to heal injuries. Most of testosterone's positive effects on connective tissue seem to be because it inhibits the somatostatin, and increases your hgh naturally...if you are taking hgh already, then it might not be worth it unless you're looking for testosterone's benefits on other aspects of your physiology (muscle hypertrophy, agression, etc.)
also, you might want to check out this thread:
http://forums.steroid.com/igf-1-lr3-hgh-insulin-questions/330081-hgh-injury-repair.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
Yeah..we pretty much have the same perception of GH and it's effect on tissues for healing and recovery.
I have probably seen the same medical articles that you have.
Like you said there is just no long term studies on GH.
I do know there have been a number of guys on here who have said that GH healed there nagging injuries and it felt like the injury had never happened.
hey...I'm taking it right now, let's hope my body heals up a little bit. I have already noticed it has helped my leaky bowel syndrome. I don't have the symptom attacks I was getting almost every day just from eating food and having it go undigested into my blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by fossilfuel7
Thats great! I have read articles that say GH may be very helpful to treat alot of chronic conditions that research has still not been done on.Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
and that's why I'm taking it...I've already improved a little since a few months ago. I plan on taking it for another 2-3 years so that I can make a full recovery from these diseases I have that many will tell you have no cure.Quote:
Originally Posted by fossilfuel7
Damn, 3 years on GH ! :D That must cost you some.Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
I'm planning a deca+testo cycle but also wanna get some GH with it, so the deca and GH can do the miracle work.
When would you advise to start the GH ? I was thinking about the same time as I start my AAS cycle and quit after PCT is done.
I'd say start the growth a little before or right when you start the AAS...don't stop taking the growth until after your PCT, and then taper off gradually or you might suffer from a couple weeks of sleepless nights and poor recovery. Don't know if it will be a problem in this case, but when you take supraphysiological doses of hgh you're hypothalamus will shut down GHRH, and your pituitary will not be producing any of its own hgh. As much as we try to avoid it by taking the shots early in the morning, the high IGF-1 levels you achieve after taking the HGH for a while should, theoretically, cause the feedback mechanism to take affect. It might take a little while to get the system up and running again...so taper off slowly, all the way down to 1 IU a day for the last 1 week of the hgh.Quote:
Originally Posted by TallMan
But I don't think it will be too much of a problem though...the half life of IGF-1 is around 20 hours, so your recovery wouldn't be like, say, the recovery from thyroid supplementation (T4 half life is about a week! T3's half life is about 1 day), which can be PAINFUL (the constipation will kill you if you suddenly stop taking thyroid meds).
Aight man, now I'm gonna save up some money to buy at least 3 kits ! :)
Look to get yourself at least 6 kits of 100 IUs each...you'll be going through a full kit a month at 5 days on 2 days off at 5 IUs a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by TallMan
So 6 kits should last you 6 months, which is what is recommended to start seeing benefits.
For injury recovery ?Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
I was thinking about taking 3,33 IU per day for 18 weeks... (5on/2off)
6 kits would cost me almost 2000 dollar man and I'm not that rich :(
Are you talking blues, jins, or something else?Quote:
Originally Posted by TallMan
I'm talking about red tops.Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
I'm also wondering if injecting IGF1 was also possible for my injury and at what dose would it be equal to 1iu HGH ?
red tops? I think I remember that as being "thanktropin?"Quote:
Originally Posted by TallMan
never heard of that. As far as the conversion of IGF-1 to HGH, that would be an area I haven't looked at yet myself. I would suspect it works as well for injuries since the IGF-1 is one of the main factors that stimulates joint repair. It is also theoretically possible to inject IGF-1 directly into the joint structures that need repair, but in our case we are using IGF-1 LR3 so it would kinda just float around I think and I don't know if it would have site specific effects as much as pure IGF-1.
But as for your dosage, I'd up it to at least 5 IU bro. I know that's a lot, but 4 IUs is really not very much...the average athletic, exercising 80 kg guy in his twenties produces something like 1.5-2.5 IUs/day naturally anyway, so I'd suspect you would need more than that to get the healing going on your injuries...I might be wrong though.
I'm running it at 5-10 IUs/day, 4-5 times a week.
5 iu would definitly be the right thing to do, but for now that would still be to expensive. Are you getting it that cheap that you can run 5IU a day for 3 years or do you have a really good job :aaGreen22Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
I guess I'd better do some deca+test for now and see how that turns out.
I'll PM with you with price information.
it's all very confusing because from what iv read testosterone increases hgh indirectly by its aromatizing to estrogen.Quote:
Originally Posted by barondumonde
Though,to make things more confusing... AIs in some cases have increased igf-1 levels...go figure.
Also, as a far as type III collagen, they say thats the weaker of the collagens, and is usaully found at the tear sites. Yeah. So this would mean estradiol is good in making sure you repair your tears with the right type of collagen, by inhibiting type III.
Also, there are different types of collagen, I, II, III, and also procollagen. Some are found in certain places, and some arent, and there are different ratios and such, so depending on WHERE your injury is it would be beneficial to take something that increases the right one. But theres no freakin way to know cuz theres not enough data like u said.
And back to progesterone...alot of its effects need estrogen in some amount, not just in forming titties. Progesterone, as u might know, in the absence of sufficiant estrogen might might not be very effective.
And as far as estrogen is concerned....anthony roberts says its biphastic, in that its anti inflammatory in some amounts but to high increases inflammation. Prolonged inflammation can decrease collagen synthesis, while too little also does the same. Also, there are different types of estrogens as im sure you know. Estradiol, estrone, and estriol. They may have different effects on collagen than each other.
And as a side thing to make us more confused, women have more ACL tears than men do apparently
I think hgh would be the safest bet. Though, i would still be in favor if running mild levels of aromatizing steroids and progestins as well, but not real high. Say in the 200-300 mg week dose. Maybe. I dunno. I did this with my shoulders after 2 surgeriies, one on each and im fine now. just my 2 cents fellas. I never used gh or igf-1 yet though do to funds. But good luck guys
As for estrogen--the reason women have joint injuries more often is because of the connective tissue inhibiting effects of estradiol. Many women have progesterone deficiencies, which is linked to cramps and PMS. I wouldn't worry too much about estrogen, although I think estriol is somewhat beneficial, I'd look at progesterone, testosterone, and IGF-1 as what will help injuries heal.
O and testosterone increases IGF-1 levels because higher levels of serum testosterone inhibit somatostatin (which itself inhibits hgh release), thereby increasing hgh, which leads to higher IGF-1 levels.
That's why all this talk about testosterone being bad for joint injuries is a load of bull.
my orthopedic surgeon says tendons and ligaments do not repair naturally,only surgery can repair them....but what does he know.
I had ACL repair surgery in March '08. Rehab is going well, but seems to have stalled a bit in the last month or so. Would hGH help in this regard?
I'm visiting my ortho soon for an upper arm injury I have, I'll ask him. This is all very interesting as I plan on working deca into my next cycle to help delineate any pain in the joints from lifting heavy.
What dosage of deca do you have to run for joint help? I was thinking of running 200mg a week with my Test E just for that reason.