DBOL/Ethanate/Prop/EQ - Cycle Diagnosis

[bigpaul66]

Hello people,

I wanted to share and get feedback on a cycle I have put together. But first about me and stats....

I am a very healthy 40 year old that has been using gear off and on over the years, most recently coming off a test only with DBOL jump cycle a few months ago.. prior to that, was lifting but gear free for a number of years.

Stats: Big guy, alway shave been yet am the endomorph too, so always fighting the BF issue:

250 LBS
6' 0"
BF = 18% at present (slacked a bit after last cycle, get it back)

I did tons of research from PCT to HCG use, as well as read so many posts and topics relating to what I want to do, that I offer this cycle with a bit of knowledge and not of speculation, but by all means feel free to comment or share anything you think could be improved upon. I will try to justify my gear and timelines as far as thinking as well.

Week 1-5 (DBOL Jump at 40mg/ED)
Week 1-13 (Ethanate 500mg/wk - Shering)
Week 14-16 (Prop 100mg/EOD)
Week 4-13 (EQ 600 mg/week)
Week 1-16 (Arimidex .5mg/EDO)
Week 3-15 (HCG 250iu every 4 days)

PCT: Clomid 4 days after last Prop Shot @ 300mg/Day1, 100mg/Day2-11, and 50mg/Day12-21 (possibly 12-31) Novadex on hand.

Let me know you pro's if you think this is sound. Moving to Prop on week 14-16 to get LH in line gradually and starting then since EQ will be in my system for 3 weeks after last shot (from week 14-16). This will allow me to start clomid 4 days after last prop with all AAS out of my system. HCG stopped end of week 15, two weeks before AAS totally out of system (4 days after last Prop shot).

Spent alot of time and research, think I nailed it. I can provide all articles as I book marked all important informational pages.

Let me know what you think... I do not post much at all, so be easy on me

[bigpaul66]

No comments guys? Guess it must look alright

[Vitruvian-Man]

Cycle looks fine man.

PCT's a little off...You don't need that much clomid... here:

clomid 100/75/50/25
Nolvadex 40/20/20/10

those are daily and weekly values (IE) week #1 = 100mg clomid + 40mg nolva each day..

-VM

[bigpaul66]

I think I am close to that, just hit it hard with 300 day one as that seems to be popular. Though since I am using HCG during cycle and not as a post treatment after which has higher risks, perhaps you are right, I can just start out with 100 as there will not be as great a need to jump my hypothalamus with so much clomid? Hmm, good point...that is why I love these forums. (clomid reference below).

Clomid dosage after steroids
A Clomid dosage after your steroid cycle is necessary for you to avoid a post-cycle crash.

Clomid is a prescription drug that is advised for women to induce ovulation. In much simpler terms, Clomid is classified as a fertility drug. In the bodybuilding frontier, however, Clomid is commonly referred to as an anti-estrogen. Anti-estrogens like Clomid minimize the effects of estrogen in the body, and this is a desirable property when it comes to preventing catabolism after a steroid cycle.

After a steroid cycle, estrogen becomes the dominant hormone while your testosterone level remains depressed. It will take a while for your body to resume its production of endogenous testosterone and you need to immediately address the issue since elevated estrogen level means the catabolic hormone cortisol is ever present to eat away most of your muscle gains during synthetic steroid intake. Thus, a Clomid dosage after steroid cycle is a must.

For nonmedical purposes, the recommended Clomid dosage after steroid cycle is 50-100mg (equivalent to 1-2 tabs) a day for 4-6 week post cycle therapy . The common Clomid dosage regimen is 300mg for Day 1; 100mg/day for Days 2-11; and 50mg/day for Days 12-21. Should you want immediate restoration of your testosterone production, you can stack your Clomid dosage with HCG.

[Vitruvian-Man]

For nonmedical purposes, the recommended Clomid dosage after steroid cycle is 50-100mg (equivalent to 1-2 tabs) a day for 4-6 week post cycle therapy. The common Clomid dosage regimen is 300mg for Day 1; 100mg/day for Days 2-11; and 50mg/day for Days 12-21. Should you want immediate restoration of your testosterone production, you can stack your Clomid dosage with HCG.

I'm not saying that using clomid + nolvadex isn't an effective stack for your PCT.

I'm saying that those dosages are out-dated, and not necessary.

300mg/ed of clomid is like a death wish. You'll be crying like a little girl, and emotional as hell. lol. Just trust me on this one bro... you're taking HCG throughout the cycle... the SERM protocol that I previously posted will be completely suffice..

-VM

[bigpaul66]

Ok man, you sold me on it and I will try that dosage... not sure if I want or need to mix the Nova with it... hear alot of opinions and is probably one of those 'what works well for you' deals.

I did the 300mg the first day coming off last cycle and was not affected... perhaps my size had something to do with it? Not sure (im a solid 260lbs)...

I will give your dosage a go, as I was not taking HCG during my last cycle and I think this time taking it, my LH levels are going to recover alot better.. plus I am tappering off last few weeks with prop for same reason (LH Levels), so it all makes sense (lower dosages of Clomid).

Thanks for the input.

[HawaiianPride.]

I agree. Absolutely no reason to start that high. Just because it's a common thing over the internet, doesn't necessarily mean it's always the most effective way. If you can tolerate 300mg, more power to you. If you can get away with lower dosages and recovery with the same result, take that route.

Cycle dosages look good. I would personally start EQ right off the bat, increasing to 13 weeks total. It's a solid compound if it's ran 12-16 weeks @ 600mg+

[bigpaul66]

I agree with comments and the EQ dosage, it was more of a gear availability to run it 10 weeks starting week 3 as I had to wait an extra two weeks for it.... I think the 10 weeks with the residual 3 weeks in system (13 total) stacked with the E and Test P at the end will work sufficident?

I am in agreement on both of your post about clomid dosage day 1 as well and will lower it... as stated, this cycle I have added HCG and a better decline off test using Prop the last few weeks, so I expect LH levels to be 110 percent better than my last stack where I did not use these compounds.

Appreciate the inputs, keep them coming so I can keep fine tuning this cycle. I am very close to dialing in the perfect cycle for myself, both for gains and safety... hopefully others can benefit as well.

[bigpaul66]

By the way Hawaiin if that is your photo, superb back development. I do well on big groups as well, its my damn shoulders and biceps that lack genetic ability

[HawaiianPride.]

10 weeks should suffice. Either way the cycle as a whole will treat you well. Next route if you want to run EQ, consider a longer duration. You'll be pleased.

Thanks. Delts, calves, upper body depth and teardrops have always been an issue with me though. It's a work in progress!

[bigpaul66]

10 weeks should suffice. Either way the cycle as a whole will treat you well. Next route if you want to run EQ, consider a longer duration. You'll be pleased.

Thanks. Delts, calves, upper body depth and teardrops have always been an issue with me though. It's a work in progress!

Well your doing fantastic amigo, looks good... and I will run the longer EQ next cycle, probably same cycle if all goes well (but not till January, on this one till September including all PCT...just got this one under way)

[oldschoolfitness]

good compounds, good planning, and good experience on and off the gear. looks good to me bro. best of luck with the cycle and keep us posted

[bigpaul66]

good compounds, good planning, and good experience on and off the gear. looks good to me bro. best of luck with the cycle and keep us posted

Thanks School.... I definetly did some homework without spamming the boards with stupid questions. Spent many hours reading posts, reading journals from both sports doctors and pros... Biggest think I learned and am trying new this time around is the HCG during my cycle evenly and not big doses at the end, as well as moving to prop at the end to drop to lower ester...

Good article I found on HCG I have included below for those that care to read it.. thanks for the comments,,, hope I am not breaking any post laws sharing this.. I just feel it is good reading and also feel that HCG is one of the most misunderstood and misused compounds in gear.........

HCG - Unraveled

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

Post-Cycle-Therapy is a must upon cessation of steroid use . Many great Post Cycle Therapy protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to increase testosterone levels . (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone .

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin -like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during Post-Cycle-Therapy. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given level of LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger natural testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production. (recovering full testosterone production is a topic for another article)

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) So do not judge how "shutdown" you are by testicular size!



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids . (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production) 20





In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start Post-Cycle-Therapy so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

Based off the above information, an optimal dose of hCG during the cycle would be 250iu every 4 days, or as a less desirable alternative, once a week shot of 500iu. Keep in mind, that the half-life of hCG is 3-4 days, while the half-life of LH is only 1-2 hours. Considering this difference in excretion time, it is best to space each dose of hCG at least 4 days apart for the optimal "peak and valley" replication. However, going more than 7 days between each hCG shot may promote increase the rate of desensitization from lack of LH or hCG stimulation.

If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG "kick starting" dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose) Remember, since the testes will be desensitized later in a cycle, you will require a higher dose. Also, the maximum daily dose of hCG should not exceed 5000iu, and 4-7 days must be taken off between each shot. Generally, a higher dose will require a longer off period between each shot. (eg., 2500iu = 7 days between each shot)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.

[bigpaul66]

10 weeks should suffice. Either way the cycle as a whole will treat you well. Next route if you want to run EQ, consider a longer duration. You'll be pleased.

Thanks. Delts, calves, upper body depth and teardrops have always been an issue with me though. It's a work in progress!

Hawaiin, I modified my cycle to have EQ runing for 12 weeks total and a 16 week total cycle. Thanks for input.