new picture, what you guys think ????

[Madman Magraa]

current state, around 15 stone 10 - 16 stone

dont think i look that heavy tho, currently been bulking gained a little fat but i dont think its out of control, just going to try and maintain this weight now .... happy with the way things are going

what do you guts think ????

any exercises inparticular that bring out the lower outer chest ????

[|2ogue]

Your looking good mate. Dips would be good for that area of the chest imo.

[JohnnyVegas]

You look good.

But, since I read your name as "Madame Magraa" at a glance, the photo was a lot less feminine than I was expecting!

[l2elapse]

nice top..how the wheels looking?

[stpete]

Looks good..Maybe try some incline low cables and decline db's?

[EquilibriumZ]

First glance reminded me of Batista lol. I d say bulk more (specially on chest both lower and upper) for like 10 lbs. Then cut, you ll look amazing.

[gbrice75]

I still hate you!

Get your shredded look back though imo, you look better that way.

Lower chest - weighted dips leaning foward, decline DB presses, etc. Sometimes it's just genetics too. Your chest separation at the bottom looks a bit far apart - but nothing out of the norm.

That's about the only good thing I was blessed with genetically speaking... chest shape.

[Madman Magraa]

thanks for the comments guys, and yeah gbrice id rather the shredded look also, next time around i will try and stay leaner, this is all kinda new to me still trying to get it right, and on about the chest is there anything exercise i can do to try and build the middle of it,

my current chest workout is

incline
decline
incline db
flys

i think i will change it to

incline
decline
incline db
and decline db
and maybe flys or dips

also ill add in some drop sets as well

how does this sound? im unable to do cable flys in the gym as the set up is not very good.

and yes gbrice you do have a very good chest, now im jealous lol

[Madman Magraa]

on a side note ive worked out my maintenance kcals to be at 3300 does that sound about right ??

[TBones]

Way solid Madame...I mean Madman! I did the same thing at first.
I agree with the guys on the weighted dips. Its the upper body squat!!


T Bone

[l2elapse]

on a side note ive worked out my maintenance kcals to be at 3300 does that sound about right ??

how active are you during the day excluding working out

[Madman Magraa]

not very active i basically just wait around all day till training time ?

[l2elapse]

you weigh around 210?

[Madman Magraa]

closer to 16 than 15 mate, i believe 210 is 15 stone, thanks

[TBones]

I just had to look it up because i was curious. 1 stone = 14 lbs

[Matt]

Looking good mate..

How tall are you?? Im 5'10 and cutting down from almost 17 stone....

[Madman Magraa]

yes 14 pounds lol im 6 ft matt, i really dont want to start cutting until after xmas, so would it be a good idea just to eat at maintenance kcals and keep trying to add muscle ?? while maintaining same bodyfat or even dropping a bit of fat ???? what you think guys

[gbrice75]

and yes gbrice you do have a very good chest, now im jealous lol

Thanks bro... but i'll trade u some chest for some of those sick delts ANY day... mine suck the big one and yours are fvcking insane.... I'M the jealous one lol!

Great job bro.

Yep - if I were you i'd stick with alot of decline work with a relatively close grip (not talking tricep work grip), and definitely hot those weighted dips hard! Go as deep as possible without straining your shoulders, and explode up, using all chest (as little tri's as possible, tough as that is), squeeze that inner chest at the top, make that mind/muscle connection...

Blah, who the fvck am I telling you how to work out - look at you, and look at me!! LOL!!!

on a side note ive worked out my maintenance kcals to be at 3300 does that sound about right ??

How many cals have you been generally eating during this bulk where you've added bodyfat? That will give us a good starting reference to drop from.

[Madman Magraa]

lol that post made me laugh gbrice haha . am well ive been eating around the 4000 mark maybe a bit more, i just like eating and havent been as strict as i should, but ill know next time not to go so mad, still learning lol

so what you think i should do ??

[gbrice75]

lol that post made me laugh gbrice haha . am well ive been eating around the 4000 mark maybe a bit more, i just like eating and havent been as strict as i should, but ill know next time not to go so mad, still learning lol

so what you think i should do ??

Well you've been eating 'around' 4k and have put on a good deal of body fat tbh... you might consider dropping to 3k and monitoring very closely for adjustments.

Do you remember approx. how much you were eating around the time your avy was taken? That's your golden look right there imo!

[Madman Magraa]

i was eating around 2500 maybe a bit les, that was hard, ill just aim for 250-300 grams of carbs, and 400 protien keep it around the 3000-32000000000 mark lol i think the biggest mistake ive made gbrice is NO cardio, i think i would of been fine if id done cardio, but i just wanted to see how i went, now a lesson learned, ive learned so much in this first year

what bodyfat would you say i am now, please dont say over 15 ...please haha

[gbrice75]

i was eating around 2500 maybe a bit les, that was hard, ill just aim for 250-300 grams of carbs, and 400 protien keep it around the 3000-32000000000 mark lol i think the biggest mistake ive made gbrice is NO cardio, i think i would of been fine if id done cardio, but i just wanted to see how i went, now a lesson learned, ive learned so much in this first year

what bodyfat would you say i am now, please dont say over 15 ...please haha

haha, well i don't want to depress you bro but i'm a straight shooter - if i'm being honest i'd say at least 15%. But don't worry, you're a big mofo and have that kind of physique that can get away with a relatively higher BF% and still look great imo. Somebody smaller like me HAS to stay really lean, otherwise i'll just look skinny fat. You'll never have that problem with all the beef you're carrying around.

3000 calories + cardio - that's where i'd start you at. Caloric adjustments as needed, carb cycling a definite.

[Madman Magraa]

great id much rather be told straight, thanks because now i know for sure i need to wise up lol, give me an example of carb cycling ??? please

[MASTERMIKE 48]

great id much rather be told straight, thanks because now i know for sure i need to wise up lol, give me an example of carb cycling ??? please

Here you go!

The Concept: Cycling 101


There are three types of days while on this diet:

High Carb
Low Carb
No Carb Days
Generally, the three days are rotated, or cycled, equally. Again, I will stress that this can, and should, betweaked, based on the individual's goals, geno and pheno-types, and dieting history. Indeed, much of this will be discussed in future installments. Here, we will lay out the basic plan, which is designed for relatively rapid fat loss for most individuals and the one that got me into contest ready condition, twice.

Carbohydrate manipulation is the key here, but we will back into this by discussing our protein and fat intake, which each remain constant. Bear in mind the multitude of goals and assumptions this diet balances.


Nuts And Bolts: The Basic Plan



Generally
This plan is based on eating six times per day. An acceptable alternative is five meals daily, and if you so choose, be sure to keep the daily ratios consistent, as each meal will require more food.

Protein Consumption
Protein: the easy part. Actually, protein is the foundation of this diet. It is not to be skipped, skimped upon, taken lightly, or otherwise reduced simply because the diet does not focus on it. The significance of protein cannot be overstated, though such details are beyond the scope of this article. We shall not get into the minimum requirements for a bodybuilder, which types of proteins are superior to others, and the numerous other issues that have perplexed the scholars and been debated ad nauseam.

Suffice it to say, that one gram per pound of bodyweight is the absolute minimum, and there is no maximum on this diet. In other words, at each and every meal, of each and every day, you can feel free to dig in to as much protein as you wish. Though there are some rules. Beyond these rules, and for simplicity's sake, I will assume you are eating a sufficient quantity at each and every meal and leave it at that.

Assuming you are eating six meals each day, regardless of which type of day, you will eat a minimum of 1/6 of your total daily minimum requirement for protein at each meal. Thus, a 200-pound individual should eat at least 33 grams of protein at each and every meal. If five meals is the necessary course, the same individual should eat a minimum of 40 grams of protein per meal.

You can eat more, but to overindulge at one meal, does not excuse a deficient amount at another. In other words, do not shortchange your protein consumption at any meal.

Again, this is the minimum, so if you are still hungry eat up. Of course, like any other macronutrient, too much protein can hinder fat loss or even promote fat gain. This is another instance where I am putting some faith in the body's sense of self-regulation. For the few of you who eat too much protein and fat loss stalls, you will want to limit total daily consumption to no more than 1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight.

Most of your protein requirements must be satisfied from very lean protein sources. Indeed, four of your meals must use lean protein sources, while the remaining one or two may come from a higher-fat source. For our purposes, a "lean source" is one that has no more than 10% of its calories from fat. It is important that you look at the calorie breakdown here, as a product may say "10% Fat" but refer to the fact that 10% of its macronutrients are fat. And because fat is more than twice as calorically dense as carbs or protein, it will derive more than 10% of its calories from fat. Now, as I have stated, this is a simple diet, so if you don't want to figure out what you can and cannot eat, I have provided a list of generally acceptable lean protein choices.

In addition, one or two meals should contain a higher-fat protein choice. Again, I have provided a list for easy reference, but for those of you with peculiar tastes, you can choose any protein that derives about 20-25% of its calories from fat. If, however, you'd rather eat a lean protein, then for that meal you should add about 10-15 grams of fat from the "Fat List" below, in the fat consumption section. For example, if you have six meals, and four have protein sources from list A and two from list B, you are fine. You cannot have more than two from list B. And if you have none from list B, and all six from list A, then two meals must have an added fat source from the list below.

Approved Lean Protein Sources (A)



Chicken (white meat)
Turkey (white meat)
Tuna Fish (can)
Fish (flounder, tuna (fatty or not), salmon, shark, etc.)
Shellfish (all types)
Protein (preferably whey post workout, and casein before bed; MRPs must be low-carb)
Lean beef (including lean cuts of steak)
Cottage Cheese (0 or 1% fat)
Egg whites (egg beaters)
Approved Higher-Fat Protein Sources (B)


Chicken (dark meat)
Turkey (dark meat)
Eggs (half whites, half whole eggs)
Steak and other meats (not exceptionally high fat cuts)
Cottage Cheese (Whole Milk)
Fat Consumption
As for fats, this diet does not worry too much about them. Nor will we discuss them much, save for this brief discussion here. While this is not a high fat (or Ketogenic) diet, it certainly is not a low fat diet. When I first started cycling carbs, I kept fats to probably less than twenty grams a day. Here, I recommend keeping dietary fats on the low side, with the majority of fats coming from supplemented EFAs (essential fatty acids)-specifically fish oil (high in long chain omega 3 fatty acids -- EPA/DHA).

Why fish oil? There are so many good reasons that a detailed discussion can be an article unto itself. For our purposes, it is sufficient to know that it has all the benefits of other EFA sources (such as flax and hemp oil) and in addition, has been shown to increase leptin sensitivity and exert positive effects on body composition much more efficiently than other EFAs (this is one of the important nutrient partitioning "tricks" one must employ for a successful recomposition).

Now, on to the practicality of it. First, you will be getting some fats in your lean protein sources (probably between 10 and 20 grams of fat) and a few grams from the carb sources (another 10 to 20 grams on high carb day). Second, at least two meals per day will include protein of the higher-fat variety. And if not, then you should add a fat source from the list below.

Fat Sources (an amount equal to 10 to 15 grams of fat).


(Natural) Peanut Butter
Flax Oil
Heavy Whipping Cream
Mayonnaise
Hemp Seed Oil
Olive Oil
Third, you will be supplementing with fish oil at 10 to 20 grams a day -- the more the better. This assumes you are using a standard fish oil supplement which, on average, contains one gram of oil and is 30% EPA/DHA. Should you choose the superior version, you may consume a bit less. I recommend you either split it up equally across all meals, or split it in half, and consume it with two meals. If you absolutely refuse to take fish oil, despite my pleas that you should (and the evidence that will be provided in the third installment), add in one to two servings of flaxseed or hempseed oil daily.

Carbohydrate Consumption and the Cycling Process
Ah, the carbohydrate. By now (if you haven't skipped ahead, and I know some of you have - shame on you) you are saying, "its about time!" Well, the protein and fat portions of this diet are relatively easy to follow, but that does not mean they are unimportant. To the contrary, they are critical. This diet is one, however, that focuses on daily manipulation of carbohydrate consumption. First, we will discuss how we do this; then we will discuss additional concerns important to this diet. As previously mentioned, in a future installment, we will discuss in greater depth the theoretical and scientific underpinnings of the carbohydrate manipulation.

As mentioned, we have three types of days in the diet, and they vary only by the amount of carbohydrate that is consumed. They are the high carbohydrate day (high carb), the low carbohydrate day (low carb), and the no (approaching zero) carbohydrate day (no carb). Again, we are assuming six meals per day, so you will need to adjust if you follow a five-meal plan.


High Carb Day


On your high carb day, four of the meals (three if you are only eating five meals) can have as much carbohydrates (yes, they must also be from the approved list - we love lists) as you like. But remember, you must eat the minimum amount of protein at each meal as discussed above. So for you carb gluttons out there, you might want to make sure you eat your protein source before truly loading up on those carbs first.

Also, each one of those meals must include a small piece of fruit (again, a requirement before downing enough other carbs to the point of no return). Almost any fruit will do (save bananas, kiwis, avocado, and other very high calorie or high fat fruits). We are looking for a small serving of fresh fruit, say between 50 and 100 calories worth. The fructose from fruit will help keep liver glycogen stores full and keep your body in the fed state as opposed to starvation-mode. And, if only consumed in small amounts, is not likely to spill over into adipose.

Also --and this is important-- you can choose which meals (3 of 5 or 4 of 6) will have carbs and which don't, but the meal preceding and following your workouts must be a carbohydrate meal. Obviously, make sure you leave sufficient time between your pre-workout meal and your workout, or limit the quantity of carbs at this meal, lest your body succumb to reverse peristalsis. Other than that, it's up to you, as I don't want to bog you down with too many "rules" (we have plenty already). The other two meals will be made up of protein only, and, while there is a minimum amount, as always, there is no maximum.

So to sum up, all but two of your meals will have a small piece of fruit, and as much carbohydrate from the approved list as you like. The goal is to eat until complete physical, emotional, and thus, physiological satiety. You are not expected to gorge yourself, nor are you expected to exercise the usual strict self-restraint.

As I said previously, I am a big believer in self-regulation by the mind and body. You are not to worry or stress about whether you are eating too much, or too little. If you eat too many carbs one meal, you will probably eat less the next, as you'll still be full (just make sure you get the protein in). The beauty of this plan is its simplicity-you are not "aiming" for any number. Rather, you are aiming for the subjective feelings that I just discussed, a satisfied stomach and mental state. You should not "want" more.

Nor should you eat more than you want. Relax and go with the flow; it is quite hard to mess up the high carb day, if you stick to the right carbs. And you will learn your body's response as you go on. Increase your carbohydrate consumption if you are not "satisfied." You want a constant feeling of fullness, all day, such that you don't want to eat further. You need to be in tune to your body, and this comes with practice.

Most people find themselves looking forward to, if not salivating at the thought of, the upcoming high carb day. This is no surprise. Indeed, it is by design, and how I came up with the plan for myself. It is a psychological reward, satisfying your emotional need to eat. It makes the very strict part of the diet (which we will get to) bearable. It is a small but frequent reward to hang on to that also has these profound psychological and, equally as important, physiological benefits.

However, some of you will have a difficult time with the high carb day. Stress and concerns of eating too much will plague you. Not counting every gram of carb, and every calorie consumed, will haunt you. For those of you with such concerns I remind you that first, you are supposed to eat a lot of food on this day, to make sure that your weekly caloric deficit is not too low, and second, that no one should ever dread high carb day. The point is to eat as much as you want; not stuff yourself like a Thanksgiving turkey.


Low Carb Day


The low carb day is a bit trickier. Actually, it's the most difficult of the bunch. The anal group out there will love it though, as there are specific macronutrient goals. For those of you who, like me, deplore counting, fret not. There is a way around it (we'll discuss this privately later my lazy brethren).

Here, three meals (two if you are only eating five meals) may contain carbs. Again, one rule is that at least the meal following your workout must be a carb meal. The others you can schedule as you see fit. Here, carb amounts are limited, however. We are seeking to eat approximately one gram of carbohydrate (from the list) per pound of bodyweight each low carb day. So our hypothetical 200 pound dieter would eat about 66 grams of carbs in each of three meals of the day, and the others would be just protein. Oh, and don't forget your small piece of fruit, at these carb meals, as well.

Now, recall that this plan is designed for simplicity. So it is best if you simply learn general portions of the carbohydrates you choose to eat. I'd prefer that you don't measure out your carbs strictly; but for the exceptionally anal, this is your chance to shine. For those like me, the goal is a satisfied, but not full stomach. The subjective feeling to strive for is where you'd like to have more, but know you don't need it.


No Carb Day


The no carb day is the simplest, yet most physically challenging day. For most, the cyclical nature of the diet will make this day a relatively easy emotional challenge, however. It also, I am willing to bet, will be the most controversial day, among the dieting community. Yes, I am prepared to be tarred and feathered. Hell, I may enjoy it. Regardless, it is the key to this diet. And it involves, quite literally, no carbohydrates. Okay I lied: a few sneak in with your green veggies; as with any good rule, there is an exception.

Here, you will stick to your six (or five) meals, and only consume protein (and some fats); again from the list, and again, at least meeting the prescribed minimum. Unless "masticatory boredom" sets in, however, I doubt you will have any trouble eating your minimums, and you likely will eat far more. However, do not be surprised if you eat less than you expect, since eating protein alone can cause one to feel satiated more rapidly. This may seem like a painful or difficult day, but in practice it's not that bad. Trust me. And remember, a high carb day is just around the corner.


Veggies


No, I did not forget. You won't find veggies (except the truly calorically dense ones) on the carb list. And here, I am referring to green leafy, low calorie, fibrous vegetables. Things like salad (no dressing), cabbages, escarole, broccoli, spinach, zucchini, squash, and kale are appropriate. Generally, any vegetable that contains less than 50 calories per cup will suffice.

Each and every day, whether it be a high, low, or no carb day, at least three meals, each and every day should include one cup of green veggies. It can be with or without your carb meals. I don't care, though you may find it more pleasing to the palate to consume your vegetables with your no carb meals.

Now, on to the good stuff: the lists. Don't get overly excited because you aren't going to see most of your favorite goodies on here. Indeed, it is a relatively sparse list, given the plethora of carb sources found in grocery stores.


Approved Carbohydrates:
Brown rice
Oats (Slow Cooked Preferred)
Sweet potatoes or Yams
Fiber One (All Bran) Cereal
Starchy Veggies (corn, peas, etc.)
Beans/Legumes
Approved Yet Limited Carbohydrates**
Whole-wheat pasta
Whole grain breads, pitas, etc.
** These may only be consumed on high carb days, and only for one meal per high carb day

[gbrice75]

Mike - great post, but u should credit the original author!

[MASTERMIKE 48]

Mike - great post, but u should credit the original author!

Great point but there wasn't an authors name just this By: Twin Peak
Nov 07, 2003 I found it on Bodybuilding.com! I thought it was obvious I didn't write it?

[gbrice75]

^^ no worries, thanks for clarifying.

[Madman Magraa]

well thanks for the help guys, that was a great post, time to adjust the diet then, but like you said gbrice i look much better leaner and i agree, im fairly new to all this so just learning along the way and finding out what my body likes and dislikes , thanks your allways a great help, and thanks to all the others that commented

[AnabolicJ]

look great

[gearbox]

How much good fat do u guys recommend for someone trying to lower there bf to like 8%

[gbrice75]

well thanks for the help guys, that was a great post, time to adjust the diet then, but like you said gbrice i look much better leaner and i agree, im fairly new to all this so just learning along the way and finding out what my body likes and dislikes , thanks your allways a great help, and thanks to all the others that commented

NP bro, good luck and keep us posted - I know you'll do great!

How much good fat do u guys recommend for someone trying to lower there bf to like 8%

Depends on your stats obviously.... and you should start your own thread in the nutrition forum for a question like this.

[Madman Magraa]

gbrice if im weighing 220 now what would i weight roughly at 10% ???

[largerthannormal]

hit up the dips and decline bro for the lower chest.................. but you look okay to me...... in a non gayish way...............