Fertility rate of european countries

[Obs]

https://youtu.be/6SLEdL779iI Very interesting.

[DocToxin8]

While I find it interesting and it definitely highlights a problem,
I don't trust the numbers or the accuracy in this film due to its very openly biased anti Muslim view.

It also takes it for granted that Muslim families will have Muslim children, and so on, but I see quite many Muslims at the university over here, and remember a session many years ago where organs from pigs were looked at, and there also was shipped in sheep organs if any Muslims present didn't want to handle the pig organs. Not one of these men or women (some wearing hijab) opted for sheep organs. While some of these women still belong quite heavily to the Muslim community this wasn't a problem.

I also see some of the Syrian refugees that have come are very western in clothes and behavior. The women have black stockings under their mini shirts so that they technically are covered, but it doesn't leave anything else than birth marks or body tattoos to the imagination, and it is still winter over here also.
If the Islam community in general gets its religion watered down to just keeping some silly traditions like the Christian has, then there's hope for the future.

Also, I've always heard that our country has about zero population growth, neither declining or increasing, or increasing slightly, but I'll see if I can get a look at later statistics.
But I've also seen that in Italy the population growth is negative,
they need immigration to not collapse;
Getting a ton of senior citizens on pension with a tiny workforce to feed them,
which is a common issue in Europe due to the WW2 baby boom.

[hammerheart]

Also, I've always heard that our country has about zero population growth, neither declining or increasing, or increasing slightly, but I'll see if I can get a look at later statistics.
But I've also seen that in Italy the population growth is negative,
they need immigration to not collapse;
Getting a ton of senior citizens on pension with a tiny workforce to feed them,
which is a common issue in Europe due to the WW2 baby boom.

That is true we got an old population but the least thing we need is mass immigration to sustain with our own taxes also.

We don't need workforce either, because of high rate of unemployment, the issue is immigrants are preferred because well, employers have to pay them less than Italians, and most of the time evading work taxes also.

[Obs]

I just feel like the white race is being bred out of existence very quickly. I know it is. Its scary.

[DocToxin8]

That is true we got an old population but the least thing we need is mass immigration to sustain with our own taxes also.

We don't need workforce either, because of high rate of unemployment, the issue is immigrants are preferred because well, employers have to pay them less than Italians, and most of the time evading work taxes also.

The idea of having mass immigration to keep the workforce doesn't appeal to anyone, I agree with that. But do you see any other viable solution to the problem?
We are talking about immigrants coming to work (and probably settle down eventually if you let them), not refugees and such.
Still, there's always gonna be a culture clash if their not European.

But how do you propose to keep the old population in humane settings without a workforce to sustain it?

[Quester]

The challenge of the future will not be in sustaining a population. People are needed only if they have a purpose. Between 30%-60% of jobs will be done by computers. Industrialized countries don't need to expand, or even, maintain their populations. Populations in less industrialized countries will suffer due to their lack of ability to automatize. The challenge will be finding ways to make peoples lives fulfilling in the absence of work. The situation predicted in the movie "ELYSIUM," is truly a possibility, especially when one factors in the ever growing disparity of wealth and growing influence of money on the political process.
The only reasons I can see to support immigration are humanitarian or the opposite. Maybe to cause societal strife and keep the poor down or to water down the influence of the vote. These two mechanisms could enhance the power of the elites...
http://http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/03/10/public-predictions-for-the-future-of-workforce-automation/
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-te...ion-jobs-2020/
http://www.economist.com/news/specia...on-and-anxiety

[hammerheart]

The idea of having mass immigration to keep the workforce doesn't appeal to anyone, I agree with that. But do you see any other viable solution to the problem?
We are talking about immigrants coming to work (and probably settle down eventually if you let them), not refugees and such.
Still, there's always gonna be a culture clash if their not European.

But how do you propose to keep the old population in humane settings without a workforce to sustain it?

Doc we got a 12% unemployment rate, that's all unused workforce. Most of the migrants you will see them became a workforce for local mafias, or best case, do abs nothing at our expenses.

Sure taking in SOME immigrants is good but no one in europe needs MASS immigration.

We can well sustain our old pop if tax evasion wasn't a national emergency.

[Obs]

The challenge of the future will not be in sustaining a population. People are needed only if they have a purpose. Between 30%-60% of jobs will be done by computers. Industrialized countries don't need to expand, or even, maintain their populations. Populations in less industrialized countries will suffer due to their lack of ability to automatize. The challenge will be finding ways to make peoples lives fulfilling in the absence of work. The situation predicted in the movie "ELYSIUM," is truly a possibility, especially when one factors in the ever growing disparity of wealth and growing influence of money on the political process.
The only reasons I can see to support immigration are humanitarian or the opposite. Maybe to cause societal strife and keep the poor down or to water down the influence of the vote. These two mechanisms could enhance the power of the elites...
http://http://www.pewinternet.org/2016/03/10/public-predictions-for-the-future-of-workforce-automation/
Robots To Replace Five Million Jobs By 2020 | Digital Trends
http://www.economist.com/news/specia...on-and-anxiety

Good links! I agree and it will be a hell of a struggle. This is precisely why I am glad I am a tradesman, though I am sure they will attach a chainsaw and grapple to a drone someday and make my methods obsolete.

[cousinmuscles]

The idea of having mass immigration to keep the workforce doesn't appeal to anyone, I agree with that. But do you see any other viable solution to the problem?
We are talking about immigrants coming to work (and probably settle down eventually if you let them), not refugees and such.
Still, there's always gonna be a culture clash if their not European.

But how do you propose to keep the old population in humane settings without a workforce to sustain it?

I am not trying to be offensive so just read my reply objectively. Your view on this is very heavily coloured by the socialism type view we have on the west. We are taxed and then get things in return for the good of all. Well not all cultures are like this, actually very few are throughout history. The normal view (historically) is that your children take care of you when you are unable to take care of yourself. And during your lifetime you save wealth and useful assets needed to survive. But here we are in this culture where that is the responsibility of the state, and they tax us (while rarely being transparent with how they use it, and have tons of high level government workers making millions). And suddenly they claim there will not be enough money, despite those oldies having worked all their lives paying taxes. Where did that money go?

I might sound evil here but this whole scheme is simply something I never agreed to participate in, and is certainly not something me or my family will suffer by. If I never have kids I will die when I cant keep myself going.

[cousinmuscles]

Good links! I agree and it will be a hell of a struggle. This is precisely why I am glad I am a tradesman, though I am sure they will attach a chainsaw and grapple to a drone someday and make my methods obsolete.

Worry not - this struggle has happened extremely often. What happens is we simply learn to do something new, and the total amount of products and services we enjoy daily increase. A small initial struggle for a great and eternal increase in pleasure.

[Obs]

I am not trying to be offensive so just read my reply objectively. Your view on this is very heavily coloured by the socialism type view we have on the west. We are taxed and then get things in return for the good of all. Well not all cultures are like this, actually very few are throughout history. The normal view (historically) is that your children take care of you when you are unable to take care of yourself. And during your lifetime you save wealth and useful assets needed to survive. But here we are in this culture where that is the responsibility of the state, and they tax us (while rarely being transparent with how they use it, and have tons of high level government workers making millions). And suddenly they claim there will not be enough money, despite those oldies having worked all their lives paying taxes. Where did that money go?

I might sound evil here but this whole scheme is simply something I never agreed to participate in, and is certainly not something me or my family will suffer by. If I never have kids I will die when I cant keep myself going.

That was very well said.

[Quester]

Worry not - this struggle has happened extremely often. What happens is we simply learn to do something new, and the total amount of products and services we enjoy daily increase. A small initial struggle for a great and eternal increase in pleasure.

Beg to differ:
I respect your optimism, it is something that I am trying to incorporate more into my life. However, there is a likelihood that it is misplaced. A third/fourth/fifth cultural revolution is not the same as the first of its kind. The first time that man that man used fire to forge metal weapons was a turning point. But, when carbon was introduced to the process, things changed (less substantially to those on the ground yet more recognizably to us now). Soon democracy was forged. Sparta and Athens vied for supremacy for half a millennia. Rome was not revolutionary in its incorporation of democracy, yet much more profound was its impact upon us. The cotton gin (1850s ish?) wasn't the first time that automization displaced us. ...
Man seeks to evolve. And so, his tools evolve faster

[cousinmuscles]

Beg to differ:
I respect your optimism, it is something that I am trying to incorporate more into my life. However, there is a likelihood that it is misplaced. A third/fourth/fifth cultural revolution is not the same as the first of its kind. The first time that man that man used fire to forge metal weapons was a turning point. But, when carbon was introduced to the process, things changed (less substantially to those on the ground yet more recognizably to us now). Soon democracy was forged. Sparta and Athens vied for supremacy for half a millennia. Rome was not revolutionary in its incorporation of democracy, yet much more profound was its impact upon us. The cotton gin (1850s ish?) wasn't the first time that automization displaced us. ...
Man seeks to evolve. And so, his tools evolve faster

The tools are definitely evolving fast but I dont see why we should fear them. I think the whole AI world takeover is bullshit. Computers will do exactly what you program them to do, and they require constant maintenance by humans to keep working. IF that is what you were trying to get to...

Otherwise all this evolution does is demand that we are more intelligent and useful, because we cant just hit a rock with a pickaxe and call it work. What I see is a bunch of dumb people starting to wane off in this evolution. Fewer seem to make progress in their developmental stages like identity, and suddenly they make a fuss about gender pronouns. If jobs keep becoming more advanced (because less intelligent work processes are done by machines) over time there will be an increase in IQ.

Whether constant advancement is optimal or not is something people will mostly get to choose. My plan for example is not endless wealth and power, but a home with no near neighbours in a landscape view type of area with a greenhouse and some chickens and rabbits, solar and wind powered, water cleaning facility et.c. I'd have to make use of a lot of science so that I can make all I need to survive, but as you see there is a tip off point to where most people choose to keep going forward, except for a few crazy ones who just want to control others. But if we have the resources and the science to not need to rely on each other as much, their ability to control us is that much less. Like gender pronouns.

[DocToxin8]

I am not trying to be offensive so just read my reply objectively. Your view on this is very heavily coloured by the socialism type view we have on the west. We are taxed and then get things in return for the good of all. Well not all cultures are like this, actually very few are throughout history. The normal view (historically) is that your children take care of you when you are unable to take care of yourself. And during your lifetime you save wealth and useful assets needed to survive. But here we are in this culture where that is the responsibility of the state, and they tax us (while rarely being transparent with how they use it, and have tons of high level government workers making millions). And suddenly they claim there will not be enough money, despite those oldies having worked all their lives paying taxes. Where did that money go?

I might sound evil here but this whole scheme is simply something I never agreed to participate in, and is certainly not something me or my family will suffer by. If I never have kids I will die when I cant keep myself going.

Totally valid arguments.

It's debatable where the philosophy of how you judge a culture is how it takes care of its least important, is indeed a sustainable (or even optimal) way of thinking about how a culture/society should function.

The seniors pension (that they have paid for by taxes themselves),
where did it go? Is also a good argument.
Well it's not difficult to imagine where it went actually;
1 stroke patient requiring 24h care 365days a year will eat up what 100 people have payed in tax, (not actual data, just an example)

But most people would find it objectionable if we were to deny stroke patients food f.ex.
I'm not so sure though, I'd give em morphine to eat instead.
That's what I'd want in their situation.
But it does become a slippery slope.
What about a 20yo diabetic that's been sick the last year and unable to work,
and doesn't have family?

I guess many such questions could be solved by some common sense,
but you do have a lot of people in our society that won't contribute much by way of producing.
Stephen Hawking does fine selling his books,
but I'm sure you could find examples of people like him that haven't had much luck business wise. Or not as much luck/success.

Little off topic though.

And I also think Questers into something.
You don't need as many programmers watching the automata as you need laborers that those automata replace.
If so automatization would be pointless.

[Euroholic]

Errrrr dont get me started on this!!!!!

European whites make up 10% of the worlds population. 10 bloody percent and yet we still rule the world. Billion chinese and a billion indians plus the africans and all the rest of the asians. Our birth rates are so low we are being outbred by all the none whites of the world. Do you want your kids to look like you? Your grankids? Do you want the beauty that is a white women to vanish from the face of the earth?

The west does not need immigration from the others our populations are big enough. They are not compatible with our way of life. Fuck everybody else. We in the west are chosen to be the beacon of civilisation.

The caliber of immigrant is so different then days gone by. The africans, Indians and these muslim arabs they are so just so stupid and different to us that they are a threat to our way of life. The west is in decline and we must prepare for one last struggle for our own existence is at stake

[BG]

While I find it interesting and it definitely highlights a problem,
I don't trust the numbers or the accuracy in this film due to its very openly biased anti Muslim view.

It also takes it for granted that Muslim families will have Muslim children, and so on, but I see quite many Muslims at the university over here, and remember a session many years ago where organs from pigs were looked at, and there also was shipped in sheep organs if any Muslims present didn't want to handle the pig organs. Not one of these men or women (some wearing hijab) opted for sheep organs. While some of these women still belong quite heavily to the Muslim community this wasn't a problem.

I also see some of the Syrian refugees that have come are very western in clothes and behavior. The women have black stockings under their mini shirts so that they technically are covered, but it doesn't leave anything else than birth marks or body tattoos to the imagination

None of this means anything when it comes down to picking Islam over anything else. Wolves is sheep clothing.

[Euroholic]

None of this means anything when it comes down to picking Islam over anything else. Wolves is sheep clothing.

You just gave me a hard in


Its called taqiyya a muslim is allowed to deceive the non believer for the betterment of islam. When the muslims population grows thats when the problems start. Look at lebanon was a nice country when it was majority Christian now as majority muslim its a crack den. France is on its way the muslims are growing in numbers

[BG]

You just gave me a hard in


Its called taqiyya a muslim is allowed to deceive the non believer for the betterment of islam. When the muslims population grows thats when the problems start. Look at lebanon was a nice country when it was majority Christian now as majority muslim its a crack den. France is on its way the muslims are growing in numbers

When I went and heard former members of the Islamic Brotherhood speak they were told to blend in as much as they can without breaking their beliefs. To have families and wait until they were called on. It was one of the scariest things Ive sat and heard. He said Im not here to scare anyone, but you need to be very afraid. This has been going on since the mid 60's. His father gave him to the brotherhood when he was 10, by 12 he was carrying AK's over the Syrian border and at 18 when he wasn't useful to do that anymore (to old) they sent him here to the US.

I believe that God (Yahweh) despite America turning against him still blesses us that are faithful here..............the blessing is the Spanish immigrants. They are mostly Christians and offset the Muslim population growing in America.

[BG]

While I find it interesting and it definitely highlights a problem,
I don't trust the numbers or the accuracy in this film due to its very openly biased anti Muslim view.

It also takes it for granted that Muslim families will have Muslim children, and so on, but I see quite many Muslims at the university over here, and remember a session many years ago where organs from pigs were looked at, and there also was shipped in sheep organs if any Muslims present didn't want to handle the pig organs. Not one of these men or women (some wearing hijab) opted for sheep organs. While some of these women still belong quite heavily to the Muslim community this wasn't a problem.

I also see some of the Syrian refugees that have come are very western in clothes and behavior. The women have black stockings under their mini shirts so that they technically are covered, but it doesn't leave anything else than birth marks or body tattoos to the imagination, and it is still winter over here also.
If the Islam community in general gets its religion watered down to just keeping some silly traditions like the Christian has, then there's hope for the future.

Also, I've always heard that our country has about zero population growth, neither declining or increasing, or increasing slightly, but I'll see if I can get a look at later statistics.
But I've also seen that in Italy the population growth is negative,
they need immigration to not collapse;
Getting a ton of senior citizens on pension with a tiny workforce to feed them,
which is a common issue in Europe due to the WW2 baby boom.

Also if you look at the Syrian immigrants that are now coming here they wont even accept food/supplies from the red cross because of the cross on the packages.......do you think they will come here and be Americanized and not radicalized if they aren't already?

[NACH3]

Also if you look at the Syrian immigrants that are now coming here they wont even accept food/supplies from the red cross because of the cross on the packages.......do you think they will come here and be Americanized and not radicalized if they aren't already?

That's a good point BG... also i know we're the country that everyone falls in for help(us and our Allies especially the British)but why do we go thru the shit we do just to help them?! I know not all are bad but what you just described above is exactly what most Americans think already - it is very scary - so we need not let them in imho

[Obs]

Also if you look at the Syrian immigrants that are now coming here they wont even accept food/supplies from the red cross because of the cross on the packages.......do you think they will come here and be Americanized and not radicalized if they aren't already?

Shit... You just keep getting cooler. Great posts!

[cousinmuscles]

Totally valid arguments.

It's debatable where the philosophy of how you judge a culture is how it takes care of its least important, is indeed a sustainable (or even optimal) way of thinking about how a culture/society should function.

The seniors pension (that they have paid for by taxes themselves),
where did it go? Is also a good argument.
Well it's not difficult to imagine where it went actually;
1 stroke patient requiring 24h care 365days a year will eat up what 100 people have payed in tax, (not actual data, just an example)

But most people would find it objectionable if we were to deny stroke patients food f.ex.
I'm not so sure though, I'd give em morphine to eat instead.
That's what I'd want in their situation.
But it does become a slippery slope.
What about a 20yo diabetic that's been sick the last year and unable to work,
and doesn't have family?

I guess many such questions could be solved by some common sense,
but you do have a lot of people in our society that won't contribute much by way of producing.
Stephen Hawking does fine selling his books,
but I'm sure you could find examples of people like him that haven't had much luck business wise. Or not as much luck/success.

Little off topic though.

And I also think Questers into something.
You don't need as many programmers watching the automata as you need laborers that those automata replace.
If so automatization would be pointless.

Here in Sweden you supposedly pay some separate taxes for separate things. Pension is paid for by employers tax. Though pensions have been dramatically cut down. Also, they paid taxes under the premise that all those other things are included in that tax bill (health care). Then suddenly the money wasnt enough. You can use that empathy argument only so many times, until we look past that and see where all te money is going. Our governments irrationally decide to abandon teaching our youths writing, reading, the sciences et.c., and instead fill their education with crap like feminism, multiculturalism and socialism. Have you ever worked in education? To see how many municipal office jobs exist, who are supposed to make things better but only make them worse? How about the fact that researchers proved over a decade ago that if you bring in immigrants (refugees) under certain rules, where you give them food, housing, money et.c., they wont manage to establish themselves in the job market? So they end up being a burden, simply because they were not demanded to not be one. Go tell the pensioners this is why they paid those extra taxes. It would all make sense and would be common sense if we got to see the full bills and could choose to participate. Taxation rarely makes sense when you see what they do with the money in real life.

You didnt see that there lies economic growth in making something more effective. If you needed 100 laborers to make some product, of which final cost became $100 per unit for the buyer, and then invented some automated system that only needed a couple engineers, that products price will go down a lot. If you think youre so smart that youll be able to sell it for $100, then you will see your business fail as competitors will have an equal automated system and will be able to sell it much cheaper, profitably. So the consumer who had $100 will be able to buy this product, AND something else. So when they buy something else, are they not creating more work (=more jobs)?

[songdog]

The thing is here in America a lot of people are really blind when it comes to these muslims.They have no idea the harm that would come to this country if we let them all in.This is how our country will fall from within.

[Obs]

Here in Sweden you supposedly pay some separate taxes for separate things. Pension is paid for by employers tax. Though pensions have been dramatically cut down. Also, they paid taxes under the premise that all those other things are included in that tax bill (health care). Then suddenly the money wasnt enough. You can use that empathy argument only so many times, until we look past that and see where all te money is going. Our governments irrationally decide to abandon teaching our youths writing, reading, the sciences et.c., and instead fill their education with crap like feminism, multiculturalism and socialism. Have you ever worked in education? To see how many municipal office jobs exist, who are supposed to make things better but only make them worse? How about the fact that researchers proved over a decade ago that if you bring in immigrants (refugees) under certain rules, where you give them food, housing, money et.c., they wont manage to establish themselves in the job market? So they end up being a burden, simply because they were not demanded to not be one. Go tell the pensioners this is why they paid those extra taxes. It would all make sense and would be common sense if we got to see the full bills and could choose to participate. Taxation rarely makes sense when you see what they do with the money in real life.

You didnt see that there lies economic growth in making something more effective. If you needed 100 laborers to make some product, of which final cost became $100 per unit for the buyer, and then invented some automated system that only needed a couple engineers, that products price will go down a lot. If you think youre so smart that youll be able to sell it for $100, then you will see your business fail as competitors will have an equal automated system and will be able to sell it much cheaper, profitably. So the consumer who had $100 will be able to buy this product, AND something else. So when they buy something else, are they not creating more work (=more jobs)?

Capialism, it works. The issue in the states is they try to socialize a system set up with capitalism at its core and we get this pseudosocialized society where the middle class winds up carrying the burden for the poor and the extremely wealthy use their $100,000,000 dollar yacht as a write off etc because they use it for their business.

Taxes should be flat rate straight across the board and a capitalized society should not force its citizens to pay into a forced collective where 99% of tax law is never even voted upon but rather it is written by a burea, such as is the case with the internal revenue service.
Americans DO NOT live in the most free country on earth. We live in the richest country on earth.
There is not one damn thing in this country that is not taxed or regulated at a state and federal level.
The only choices we get are to pick the next shiny terd that will fund the next burea that will create more laws and appoint the next judge that will define those laws.
Freedom in this country has been pisswatered down by socialism to a degree that is sickening.

Pseudosocialism and pisswatered are registered trademarks of obscorp and its affiliates.