Is long term Deca use safe?

[drkinsey]

Hello - I am a 49 year old male who is new to this forum

My doctor put me on 200 mg/week Deca to fight heavy bone loss (osteo) and muscle loss. In addition, I am on the following protocol:

T pellets (300 mg every 6 weeks)
hCG 500 units every two days
T cypionate 50 mg/week

Between Jan and March of this year, I lost 58 pounds lean mass AND gained 32 pounds of fat after I became bedridden (180 pounds at 11.5 bf to 154 pounds at 33.8 bf). This radical change in body composition occured primarily because my previous doctor (a stupid,clueless endo) put me on a very low dose (2.5g) Androgel cycle, thus creating a severe state of T deprivation over a period of 90 days. (I am still mad as hell - these endos know less than 10 percent of what an average bodybuilder knows)

Question: Is it safe to be on Deca continuously? Do I have other other alternatives? (I am very sensitive to some of T's side effects, especially aromatization.)

[soccer#3]

welcome

i think it'd be better if u posted this in the question and answer section.

good luck

[Lavinco]

I know your gonna get deca dick. Limp biscuit syndrome.

[Anabolios]

I know your gonna get deca dick. Limp biscuit syndrome.

yeah he did it all for the nookie...actually just the opposite

get a few other opinions from some endos...but i agree with lavinco this has potential to cause a serious suppression of your libido and ability to get/maintain erections might not for you though doctors advice isnt always best but id shop around

[Vial]

Welcome, post your message on the Anabolic forum for some clear answers.

[Ufa]

Hello - I am a 49 year old male who is new to this forum

My doctor put me on 200 mg/week Deca to fight heavy bone loss (osteo) and muscle loss. In addition, I am on the following protocol:

T pellets (300 mg every 6 weeks)
hCG 500 units every two days
T cypionate 50 mg/week

Between Jan and March of this year, I lost 58 pounds lean mass AND gained 32 pounds of fat after I became bedridden (180 pounds at 11.5 bf to 154 pounds at 33.8 bf). This radical change in body composition occured primarily because my previous doctor (a stupid,clueless endo) put me on a very low dose (2.5g) Androgel cycle, thus creating a severe state of T deprivation over a period of 90 days. (I am still mad as hell - these endos know less than 10 percent of what an average bodybuilder knows)

Question: Is it safe to be on Deca continuously? Do I have other other alternatives? (I am very sensitive to some of T's side effects, especially aromatization.)

Don't see how Androgel could do what you are talking about. It is not
enough to shut you down. Do you have other issures. Being bedridden,
could you possibly be depressed.

I think you should post your blood work. Additionally before you think
of doing any more aas; don't you think it would be better to loose
the extra pounds with exercise and diet.

Threre are no MAGIC pills.

[cfiler]

Welcome to AR!

[drkinsey]

Don't see how Androgel could do what you are talking about. It is not
enough to shut you down. Do you have other issures. Being bedridden,
could you possibly be depressed.

I think you should post your blood work. Additionally before you think
of doing any more aas; don't you think it would be better to loose
the extra pounds with exercise and diet.

Threre are no MAGIC pills.

Here is the full story. ( Depression developed after my endrocine system shut down. I am now lifting weights 9 hours a week to get things back on track.)

I was referred to an endocrinologist last summer based on the following clinical findings: afternoon fatigue, osteoporosis, (bone density at 2.3 standard deviations below the mean), and diminished libido.

My free T and total T were measured on four different occasions over a period of 60 days last fall. The total T was consistently in the 350 to 400 range irrespective of the test method employed – direct RIA or Equilibrium Dialysis. However, the free T was highly dependent on the test method. Free T measured using Equilibrium Dialysis was always in the middle of the reference range (47 - 244 pg/ml). In contrast, when measured using the direct RIA method, the free T was always about 20 percent below the reference range low end of the reference range (9.5 – 43 pg/ml). It is well known that the direct RIA method has a strong negative bias when total T is in the low normal range and SHBG is very low. (Dozens of clinical studies and reports have been published on this topic. My SHBG was 19 on all four tests. The following lab tests (December 8 , 2005) are included for reference:

Total T = 398 (350 – 890)
Free T by Equil. Dialysis = 146 (47 – 244)
Free T by direct RIA = 7.0 (9.5 – 43)
SHBG = 19
LH = 3.4; FSH = 1.6)
Estradiol = 18.8
Height = 71; Weight = 180; Body Fat = 11.5 %
Chest = 46 inches; Waist = 32; Bicep = 16.5 inches

Based on the clinical findings and the RIA free T measurements, my endocrinologist put me on a very low dose of Androgel – 2.5 g. What happened during the next 6 months was nothing short of surreal.

Within two weeks I began to notice major body changes: rapid loss of muscle mass and significant atrophy; large accumulation of fat deposits in the hip, pubic, and inner thigh areas; and sagging upper arms. I contacted the doctor but he insisted that these “changes” were visual disturbances. The physical deterioration continued, and by the end of the fourth week I was reporting the following symptoms:
• Pain in the hip and femur bones
• Hot flashes in the middle of the night
• Fatigue beginning shortly after noon, and becoming progressively worse until the next Androgel dose
• Apathy, lethargy, and an inability to make decisions
• Severe depression
• Depersonalization and derealization (an alteration in consciousness where familiar objects and time are distorted and the person becomes an outside observer of his own mental processes – the perception the person is in a theatre observing himself perform on stage)

Over the next 8 weeks, I became bed ridden and was not able to work or care for my family. I reluctantly returned to the endocrinologist for a follow- up visit. Here are the results:

Free T by direct RIA = 1.7 (9.5 – 43)
Vitamin D, 25 OH = 11 (25 – 80))
Weight = 154; Body Fat = 33.8 %
Chest = 36 inches; Biceps = 12 inches
Significant loss of muscle mass in thigh; excessive fat deposits; “mushy” look and feel

He increased the dose, and after 8 weeks my total T measured one hour after dosing was 609 (245- 1836), my free T measured using RIA was 20 (12.4 to 40), total estrogen was 157 (range less than 130), and my weight was 170. There was some improvement in upper (but not lower) body composition. I felt some improvement in the morning, but became very fatigued, lethargic, and irritable by 6 pm every day. The endocrinologist said that my total E was normal and that the symptoms I was reporting are not related to my hormone levels (“You are at the right level for this dose of medicine.”) At this point, I decided to go to a doctor who specializes in HRT but is not an endocrinologist. (In other words, this treatment is not covered by my insurance.)

My new doctor told me to discontinue the Androgel and to follow his standard protocol:

• Testosterone pellets (four 75 mg pellets)
• Testosterone cypionate injections – 50 mg per week
• Deca Durabolin – 200 mg per week
• hCG – 500 units every two days
• B12 and B6 injections every 10 days
• 2000 units liquid Vitamin D every night
• 1000 mg Magnesium every night

After four weeks, my weight has gone up to 180 pounds (BF = 29.6 %), and my upper body composition has improved due to extensive workouts. But my thighs have large deposits of fat tissue, with no muscle tone whatsoever, despite the fact that I am concentrating my workout on lower body exercises. I have not had any follow-up blood work.

[Ufa]

Wow, man you were huge, sorry to hear such a horror story. Just hang in there and don't even think of giving up. Looking at your estrogen level.
Mine has been high as well. Test gel seems to aromatize much faster than
shots. If you still have high estro levels you should consider a aromatase
inhibitor. It keeps your test from turning into estro. Mine got as high as
257. It is now 117. I take arimidex by AstraZenica 1mg. per day.

The thing no one ever talks about is the ratio between test and estro.
The higher the ratio the better. I think the estro migh have been the
evil twin. Just my opinion. It takes time to get back in shape. Just pay
attention to diet and cardio. I'm sure you do any way. Keep posting
you are an inspiration to all of us.

[cmax]

I have never heard of anyone reacting so severly to androgel alone. I had always thought that androgel was so weak that it never shuts you down completely unless you use an insanely large dose (10g a day or more).

Androgel is not widely known for raising estrogen to extremes, but it will put your DHT levels off the charts. I think that androgel is crap and I would never use it.

Is it safe to be on Deca continuously?

It's safe to take long cycles of Deca (16+ Weeks), but I would not take it indefinitely. Someone mentioned that long term continual use of Deca can lead to sexual dysfunction (I cannot find the exact thread). As long as you are cycling the Deca on and off you should be fine. I would not take it indefinitely like some people do with Test in HRT programs.

Nandrolone (Deca) IS NOT a part of legit AACE protocol. Nandrolone is produced in such little amounts naturally in the body that having a 'nandrolone' deficiency would be nearly impossible. Nandrolone is given to people who cannot hold a healthy body weight and are emaciated. In no world will nandrolone sufficiently REPLACE low testosterone levels (because it's NOT testosterone).

Do I have other other alternatives?

Yes, either cycling the Deca or taking another compound to gain mass.

(I am very sensitive to some of T's side effects, especially aromatization.)

This will be more an issue with the Test than with the Deca because Deca aromatizes at a very low rate.