Should we allow this to happen

[Kärnfysikern]

I dont have any link right now to any newsstory about this.

But Just watched a documentary on tv that shows how europe and america is mass exporting waste to india and china. Recycling it is alot cheaper there so its not economic to do it where we live.

The problem is the conditions in india and china. You have people working on all that crap by hand, no protective gear, no nothing. They walk waist deep in acids and solvets in these processes. The avarage age of these workers are 16-24. Those older have damaged there health to bad to continue.

Now this offcourse happens in all kinds of industries in those countries. The same conditions are present in for instance the textile manufacturing companies where workers are waist deep in bleech and acids and child labor is comon. All these items go to sale in european and american stores. All the waste is dumped right into rivers and lakes and poluting everything.

What is disgusting is that there are plenty of companies in india and china that can make the same products environmentaly friendly for very little cost. It is a bit more expensive than those shit factories but alot cheaper than to do the same thing in europe and the states.

Should we make it illegal for european and american companies to buy products from companies in india and china that has such low standards? Should we legalise against exporting dangerous waste products to those countries(the EU has done so already to some extent).

[Phreak101]

Outsourcing at it's finest.

[Kärnfysikern]

Outsourcing at it's finest.

I guess thats what happens when free market forces are allowed to reign unchecked. Why would anyone care if young kids are breathing acid vapor when we can get a towel for 5 cent less....

[RA]

I thought you said America was polluting the earth more than any other country?

[perfectbeast2001]

I have seen a similar doc. It showed poor people working in the rubbish dumps in china and india setting fire to computer hardware and trying to filter the gold from the chips ect out. They were getting horrendous lung diseases from the plastic fumes.

[RA]

I dont have any link right now to any newsstory about this.

But Just watched a documentary on tv that shows how europe and america is mass exporting waste to india and china. Recycling it is alot cheaper there so its not economic to do it where we live.

The problem is the conditions in india and china. You have people working on all that crap by hand, no protective gear, no nothing. They walk waist deep in acids and solvets in these processes. The avarage age of these workers are 16-24. Those older have damaged there health to bad to continue.

Now this offcourse happens in all kinds of industries in those countries. The same conditions are present in for instance the textile manufacturing companies where workers are waist deep in bleech and acids and child labor is comon. All these items go to sale in european and american stores. All the waste is dumped right into rivers and lakes and poluting everything.

What is disgusting is that there are plenty of companies in india and china that can make the same products environmentaly friendly for very little cost. It is a bit more expensive than those shit factories but alot cheaper than to do the same thing in europe and the states.

Should we make it illegal for european and american companies to buy products from companies in india and china that has such low standards? Should we legalise against exporting dangerous waste products to those countries(the EU has done so already to some extent).

What you not looking Johan is that if there were better and higher paying jobs they would do it. So its a catch 22. Do you want them to starve to death or die from being poisened by the garbage?

[Phreak101]

I guess thats what happens when free market forces are allowed to reign unchecked. Why would anyone care if young kids are breathing acid vapor when we can get a towel for 5 cent less....

Keep in mind, it IS a job....but no, I personally would rather pay more to insure healthier conditions for all.

[Kärnfysikern]

What you not looking Johan is that if there were better and higher paying jobs they would do it. So its a catch 22. Do you want them to starve to death or die from being poisened by the garbage?

But remember that if the companies here in europe and america where willing to pay a bit more the companies in india and china that work with good environmental and safety standards could expand and those people would have safer jobs(they would not be unemployed and starving).

We would still get the products ALOT cheaper than if they where produced here. It would be difference in cents and at most a dollar on for instance a towel.

Whats hypocritical is that most of the euro and us companies claim that they require standards of the companies they buy shit from. The dude doing the documentary then went around the swedish companies showing them the conditions in the factories they buy from. There where offcourse lost for words.

A couple of indian reporters cooperating with the swedish got beaten up by both the factory owners and the cops for asking the workers how the conditions are.

[Kärnfysikern]

I thought you said America was polluting the earth more than any other country?

I guess I should have said higest producer of greenhouse gases.
But america does offcourse not release toxic waste in the samer manner as india and china.

But it is happening because of the products you and me buy. Europe and america, both consumers and buisness, are directly responsible for what happens.

This is sickening me so much that I in the future will avoid buying anything at those scandinavian companies that where importing from those shit companies.

[RA]

But remember that if the companies here in europe and america where willing to pay a bit more the companies in india and china that work with good environmental and safety standards could expand and those people would have safer jobs(they would not be unemployed and starving).

We would still get the products ALOT cheaper than if they where produced here. It would be difference in cents and at most a dollar on for instance a towel.

Whats hypocritical is that most of the euro and us companies claim that they require standards of the companies they buy shit from. The dude doing the documentary then went around the swedish companies showing them the conditions in the factories they buy from. There where offcourse lost for words.

A couple of indian reporters cooperating with the swedish got beaten up by both the factory owners and the cops for asking the workers how the conditions are.

The fast rising Chinese economy is based on super cheap labor. You think they are going to change anything? You know how many mine workers die in that country every year? Its not just the garbage, its every industry that they have. I said before eventually its going to catch up to them because they cant live with basically slave labor forever.

[Phreak101]

The fast rising Chinese economy is based on super cheap labor. You think they are going to change anything? You know how many mine workers die in that country every year? Its not just the garbage, its every industry that they have. I said before eventually its going to catch up to them because they cant live with basically slave labor forever.

It's true. China could give a sh!t about the safety and welfare of its citizens. All China cares about is the state, the rights and safety of the individuals are irrelevant. If you want to blame someone, blame a government that totally represses its people and sells their lives for pennies on the dollar.

[Kärnfysikern]

The fast rising Chinese economy is based on super cheap labor. You think they are going to change anything? You know how many mine workers die in that country every year? Its not just the garbage, its every industry that they have. I said before eventually its going to catch up to them because they cant live with basically slave labor forever.

Yeah I know just about everything there is ****ed up.

It's true. China could give a sh!t about the safety and welfare of its citizens. All China cares about is the state, the rights and safety of the individuals are irrelevant. If you want to blame someone, blame a government that totally represses its people and sells their lives for pennies on the dollar.

Well the thing is, its we that consume that are responsible for the demand of cheap indian and chinese products right? So it is our responsibility as much as the chinese goverment that those workers are exploited.

If walmart where willing to pay just a bit more the companies in china and india that produce things environmentaly and worker friendly would be able to hire more people. Walmart and similar companies would still make tremendous profits. it would be small differences since even quality asian companies have cheap labore.

So it all comes down to us, is it worth it to get a towel for 10 cents less? The current prices are not sustainable anyway.

Also even though the damage isnt done in our country it sure as hell will effect us sooner rather than later. How fast didnt PCB and DDT spread over the entire globe?

The cheap products now will end up a hell of a lot more expensive at the end when everyone has to clean up the mess. Those 10 cents more in our pockets today is 10 dollars less in the pocket of our kids or ourself in 40 years.

[Phreak101]

Yeah I know just about everything there is ****ed up.



Well the thing is, its we that consume that are responsible for the demand of cheap indian and chinese products right? So it is our responsibility as much as the chinese goverment that those workers are exploited.

If walmart where willing to pay just a bit more the companies in china and india that produce things environmentaly and worker friendly would be able to hire more people. Walmart and similar companies would still make tremendous profits. it would be small differences since even quality asian companies have cheap labore.

So it all comes down to us, is it worth it to get a towel for 10 cents less? The current prices are not sustainable anyway.

Also even though the damage isnt done in our country it sure as hell will effect us sooner rather than later. How fast didnt PCB and DDT spread over the entire globe?

The cheap products now will end up a hell of a lot more expensive at the end when everyone has to clean up the mess. Those 10 cents more in our pockets today is 10 dollars less in the pocket of our kids or ourself in 40 years.

I agree with you Johan, but our opinions are not important, the opinions of the masses are. And if China is willing to sppease the masses with the appeal of lower priced goods at the expense of lives and sanitation, what's a bro to do?

[spywizard]

Johan.. what you are arguing is that Government should force good behavior on others??that's what we are doing in the middle east isn't it??I understand that the stong, and the rich should take care of those without a voice, or those that are unable to take care of themselves, but who is to say that we are correct?? so what measure do we use??

[Kärnfysikern]

I agree with you Johan, but our opinions are not important, the opinions of the masses are. And if China is willing to sppease the masses with the appeal of lower priced goods at the expense of lives and sanitation, what's a bro to do?

The only thing we can do is influence what goes on here in our countries. As a consumer we can refuse to buy those kinds of products. We can spread awereness. We can try to make it into political issues so our politicians has to respond.

Whatever we do its a heck of a lot better than to go buying cheap shit produced like that....I dont have much money to spend but Im sure am going to do my best to avoid all those products.

Decrease the demand for cheap products and increase it for quality products by any means possible.

Johan.. what you are arguing is that Government should force good behavior on others??that's what we are doing in the middle east isn't it??I understand that the stong, and the rich should take care of those without a voice, or those that are unable to take care of themselves, but who is to say that we are correct?? so what measure do we use??

I am arguing that western companies should be punished if they buy products from third world manufacturers that do treat there workers and environment like shit. Make the fines large enough for the companies to hurt more from buying those products than if they buy the equvivalent products from more sane producers.

We should make it illegal to even import products produced under those conditions. It would be unrealistic to check everything offcourse. But it would send strong signals to our big buisness that the playtime is over.

I mean the oppinion that workers should not be waist deep in acids and bleeches without protective gear ,breathing vapor that destroys the lungs and make them go blind is surely not just a western oppinion...

I think the problem is that most of us consumers have NO clue what the hell is going on over there because I cant imagine any avarage joe willingly endorse that by buying cheap products. Offcourse the western buisness is lying there asses of so we dont know...

[RA]

The whole reason we trade with China is to try to influence its citizens. If they get a taste of Capitalism etc etc. The only choice we have is to stop.

[death45456]

The whole reason we trade with China is to try to influence its citizens. If they get a taste of Capitalism etc etc.

??are you joking?? theres a million reasons USA trades with china and i doubt that's even one of them.

[spywizard]

The only thing we can do is influence what goes on here in our countries. As a consumer we can refuse to buy those kinds of products. We can spread awereness. We can try to make it into political issues so our politicians has to respond.

Whatever we do its a heck of a lot better than to go buying cheap shit produced like that....I dont have much money to spend but Im sure am going to do my best to avoid all those products.

Decrease the demand for cheap products and increase it for quality products by any means possible.



I am arguing that western companies should be punished if they buy products from third world manufacturers that do treat there workers and environment like shit. Make the fines large enough for the companies to hurt more from buying those products than if they buy the equvivalent products from more sane producers.

We should make it illegal to even import products produced under those conditions. It would be unrealistic to check everything offcourse. But it would send strong signals to our big buisness that the playtime is over.

I mean the oppinion that workers should not be waist deep in acids and bleeches without protective gear ,breathing vapor that destroys the lungs and make them go blind is surely not just a western oppinion...

I think the problem is that most of us consumers have NO clue what the hell is going on over there because I cant imagine any avarage joe willingly endorse that by buying cheap products. Offcourse the western buisness is lying there asses of so we dont know...

and we here in the USA hire illegal aliens so we can pay them next to nothing, although there are laws against this.. I happen to agree with your assertions, however, more goverment control is not the answer..

[RA]

??are you joking?? theres a million reasons USA trades with china and i doubt that's even one of them.

No Im not joking. It has been our way to get to China instead of an arms race.

[Phreak101]

No Im not joking. It has been our way to get to China instead of an arms race.

Yup, China's manpower is extraordinary. Outside of a nuclear war, the US needs to curb the potential militray might of the Chinese Army. The only way to do that is to make the people second guess the way of life their government is forcing them to endure.

[Prada]

I saw a similar documentry having to do with ship graveyards. Working conditions are horrendous, in this case they werent foreign owned to my knowledge.
Yes in many instances these foreign companies setup sweatshops and exploit labourers, yet I dont mean to be insensititve or be indifferent but many of these multinationals provide better conditions then the local companies, it just seems abhorent compared to our labour laws and conditions

[Kärnfysikern]

and we here in the USA hire illegal aliens so we can pay them next to nothing, although there are laws against this.. I happen to agree with your assertions, however, more goverment control is not the answer..

What do you think would be a viable solution? I dont se how it would be possible to make us consumers change our shopping behaviors