"Oil giant 'paid groups to mislead public' on warming "

[Kärnfysikern]

You state your case as though all of the top scientists in the world agree with your side, which we both know is not the case. For every scientist that you can use to present your side, I can do the same for my side. There is no "concensus", to say that there is just makes you look as though you have not seen all of the evidence out there, from both sides.

Bullshit. I can find physcisist that claim theory of relativity is wrong, I can find biologist that support creationism. Does that mean there is no consensus view on relativity or evolution? The majority thinks humanity is having a impact on climate.

I have not seen all the evidence no, because even if I did look at it I am not qualified to judge it. I trust the experts know what they talk about and leave it at that. Reading some crappy watered down popular science version of the research usualy doesnt tell anything at all about the science and the real science is much to hard to digest just as a hobby so no thanks.

Do not pretend as though I am oblivious to the science, I was getting my B.S. while you were still in grammer school....... Again, I'll bet that you were all over the computer crash of 1999 as well, weren't you?

Nope I wasnt. I didnt care one bit about it. I dont get caught up in stupid hype like that. Anyone with half a brain could tell that was bullshit.

I am just stating one simple thing and that is:
The majority if climate experts say humans are impacting science and that we should do something about CO2 emission.

Aslong as the majority supports that idea I will aswell. Simple as that. Dont try to paint me as some wacko alarmist.

The glaciers are smaller than they were 15,000 years ago, during the last ice age. We are coming out of the last ice age now, so it is logical that the glaciers would be smaller.

Once again you never considere that someone checked if that is the case and that the explanation is that simple? Do you realy think they are THAT stupid? Its not like people are trying to invent a complicated explanation before checking if the simple ones are true.

No one has said that emissions are good, but over-blowing the sitaution is definitely not good either.

So your answere is ignore it? People like gore that overblow it is stupid, people that underestimate it is dangerous. Why not do something now while we have a chanse just incase?
According to the Stern report it would not cost us to much economicaly to make changes now, but if global warming is true and we wait it will devestate the world economy.

[tinyguy2]

co2 increased his vaginal dryness . oh know it must be "vaginal warming" the end of wet vagina's forever. i'm going to make a propanda movie about it because know one remembers/ care who i am

[Logan13]

Johan,
You may say "bullshit" about the computer crash of 2000, but many, many educated people agreed about the probable outcome of disaster. It is easy to say that it is bullshit now, since we now know that it was. I have no issue with reducing our oil dependency world wide, if not for the enviroment just to get off of the middle east's teat. But to run around and say that since the glaciers are melting, land is falling into the sea, and that since temps are rising must be a signal that something is wrong is ludicrous, it has all happened before and will happen again. To say that man is responsible just makes some feel good about that fact that maybe they can control mother earth and stop such occurrences. I'm sorry that some live on the coasts and may face losing their city at some point, but in all honesty the earth does not give a shit. Don't live next to a volcano and don't live below sea level, if you do and something happens, shame on you.

[Mike Dura]

Lol! As always, the issue is more complicated than your understanding of it!

[Kärnfysikern]

Johan,
You may say "bullshit" about the computer crash of 2000, but many, many educated people agreed about the probable outcome of disaster. It is easy to say that it is bullshit now, since we now know that it was. I have no issue with reducing our oil dependency world wide, if not for the enviroment just to get off of the middle east's teat. But to run around and say that since the glaciers are melting, land is falling into the sea, and that since temps are rising must be a signal that something is wrong is ludicrous, it has all happened before and will happen again. To say that man is responsible just makes some feel good about that fact that maybe they can control mother earth and stop such occurrences. I'm sorry that some live on the coasts and may face losing their city at some point, but in all honesty the earth does not give a shit. Don't live next to a volcano and don't live below sea level, if you do and something happens, shame on you.

Well I guess I will never understand your reluctance to trust scientists in this particular case. I guess we have different levels of trust for the scientific method. If anything it seems like you want to hold onto the notion that humans are to small to effect the world that seems so big.
Like I said, just because something has happened before doesnt exclude the evidence that indicate we are causing it now.

Either way I sure hope it will turn out to be a totaly natural variation. But Im more realistic and want to act hard and fast in order to avoid possible disaster. Getting rid of fossile fuels will be the best thing humanity will do, even if global warming isnt a risk. So many people die in our countries because of polution from fossile fuels.

Consider this:

There is far more evidence for man made global warming than there ever was for iraqi WMD's

The cost of avoiding a disaster from global warming isnt disastrously big.

The consequenses of global warming if true is far far far worse than even al qaida with nukes.

You willingly support spending some 600-1000 billion dollars in iraq. But you run and scream the moment you hear the ide of taxing co2 emissions, subsidising alternatives ect. Why?

[Logan13]

Consider this:

There is far more evidence for man made global warming than there ever was for iraqi WMD's. Sure there is.

The cost of avoiding a disaster from global warming isnt disastrously big. Care to put a number to that vague statement?

The consequenses of global warming if true is far far far worse than even al qaida with nukes. Perhaps for your country........

You willingly support spending some 600-1000 billion dollars in iraq. But you run and scream the moment you hear the ide of taxing co2 emissions, subsidising alternatives ect. Why? When did I say this? Tell you what, you keep peddling that bike of yours, I'll drive.

Reading a book on the subject does not make you an expert, and neither does your passion for it to be true. When you graduate from college, look me up and we will continue with this.............

[Logan13]

Lol! As always, the issue is more complicated than your understanding of it!

After reading your myspace page, all that I can do is laugh when you post in here..............

[Kärnfysikern]

Sure there is

Well to be fair its not so hard to find more evidence for it

Care to put a number to that vague statement?

According to the stern report its 2% of bnp to prevent it. If we wait it might become 20% on BNP as a result of the damages. 2% wont change my quality of life much, just cut down on the cash we hand out ot all the bums. 20% will however.

Those are the numbers that I remember Im not sure if they are completely accurate. But its easy to look up Im just to lasy

Perhaps for your country........

So relocating or losing LA, new york, Miami and a butload of other costal cities and financial centers isnt worse than a nuke on one city?

If not thinking selfishly. The big asian population centers are doomed. They will be drowned at the same time as the supply of freshwater gets cut of when the mountain glaciers disapere and the big rivers dry out. We got enough shit with a few hundrad million africans starving and having to little water. Imagine 2 billion asians aswell?

When did I say this? Tell you what, you keep peddling that bike of yours, I'll drive.

I might confuse you with roidattack but I seem to remember you generaly oppose all kind of taxes or subsidises? Free market capitalist to the fingertips? Maby Im wrong?

I got to say the free market seems to be doing good. I see commercial for low emission cars everyday nowdays. When politicians do subisidise things its useless things like wind power that wont fix anything at all.

Reading a book on the subject does not make you an expert, and neither does your passion for it to be true. When you graduate from college, look me up and we will continue with this.............

I havent read a book on it and it wont change anything when I graduate because Im not studying anything that is the slighest related to climatology. Its to ****ing boring I wouldnt read a book on it even if I got it for free.


Funny that you insinuate that I consider myself a expert when I repedetly say I am far to ignorant on the issue to be able to say anything and thats why I go with the majority oppinion. You on the other hand are making your own hypothesis all the time on the cause for the warming trend. Whos the "expert"??

[Logan13]

So relocating or losing LA, new york, Miami and a butload of other costal cities and financial centers isnt worse than a nuke on one city?

If not thinking selfishly. The big asian population centers are doomed. They will be drowned at the same time as the supply of freshwater gets cut of when the mountain glaciers disapere and the big rivers dry out. We got enough shit with a few hundrad million africans starving and having to little water. Imagine 2 billion asians aswell?

Populations have come and gone since the dawn of man due to weather and natural, albeit catastophic, events. This is nothing new, accept the fact that California will one day break apart from North America, New Orleans will one day be under the ocean, etc. These are natural occurances, it always has been. You and I can do nothing to stop "mother nature", no one can. Such things are out of our control, and this is why so many have a problem with it.

[Kärnfysikern]

Populations have come and gone since the dawn of man due to weather and natural, albeit catastophic, events. This is nothing new, accept the fact that California will one day break apart from North America, New Orleans will one day be under the ocean, etc. These are natural occurances, it always has been. You and I can do nothing to stop "mother nature", no one can. Such things are out of our control, and this is why so many have a problem with it.

Yes but this time around it might be because of us.
Isnt it horribly irresponsible to claim since nature has done this before it must be nature doing it again, when there is real reason to belive we might be the cause this time?

It seems your whole argument rest on the notion that since this has happened before naturaly it MUST TO 100% CERTAINTY mean we cant have anything to do with it. You seems totaly opposed to even entertain the idea that humanity might have play a part? Despite the simple fact that humanity is the largest contributor of greenhouse gases today, dwarfing natural sources like vulcanic activity.

[Logan13]

Yes but this time around it might be because of us.
Isnt it horribly irresponsible to claim since nature has done this before it must be nature doing it again, when there is real reason to belive we might be the cause this time?

It seems your whole argument rest on the notion that since this has happened before naturaly it MUST TO 100% CERTAINTY mean we cant have anything to do with it. You seems totaly opposed to even entertain the idea that humanity might have play a part? Despite the simple fact that humanity is the largest contributor of greenhouse gases today, dwarfing natural sources like vulcanic activity.

There you go again, thinking that everything revolves around man. You do not give the Earth enough credit. We are not even close to the highest levels of CO2 nor the highest temps. in earth's history, somehow, the earth carried on for millions of years. It does not matter if the gases come from a volcano or man, it is the levels that concern me. I am all for conservation on our oil usage, and being an active outdoor enthusist, I am all for cleaner air! But I am just keeping the entire earth's history in perspective, the sky is simply "Not falling"..........

[Kärnfysikern]

There you go again, thinking that everything revolves around man. You do not give the Earth enough credit. We are not even close to the highest levels of CO2 nor the highest temps. in earth's history, somehow, the earth carried on for millions of years. It does not matter if the gases come from a volcano or man, it is the levels that concern me. I am all for conservation on our oil usage, and being an active outdoor enthusist, I am all for cleaner air! But I am just keeping the entire earth's history in perspective, the sky is simply "Not falling"..........

The bolded part is where you and me agree completely. You say levels have been higher in the past and I dont disagree with that one bit. The thing that concerns me is that in the past when levels where higher the temperature was higher aswell. The CO2 levels today are the highest in the recent past. That concerns me because it will mean the temperature will most probably be increased aswell if going by historical trends.

For the majority of the earths existance humanity could not have existed. That is the key point. Earth carried along for millions of years, but with no humans, earth can carry on for million years more. But if humanity wants to carry on the conditions has to be quite specific.

This last "brief" period of a couple of hundrad thousand years of relativly cold climate has been what allowed humanity to evolve and become the dominant spieces on earth. We would not survive if the climate returned to what it used to be in the time of the dinosaurs. Now if we know that high co2 goes hand in hand with high temperature. Isnt it then a concern that we are the main contributor of co2 to the atomsphere.

Expert seems to be saying that we humans are quite capable of pushing the CO2 levels high enough to seriously impact the climate and make it hotter like in the past, when CO2 was naturaly higher. Isnt that worrying? Shouldnt we prevent it before it gets out of our controll?

Im well aware of what the earths past has been like, that is the core of my worries.

[Logan13]

The bolded part is where you and me agree completely. You say levels have been higher in the past and I dont disagree with that one bit. The thing that concerns me is that in the past when levels where higher the temperature was higher aswell. The CO2 levels today are the highest in the recent past. That concerns me because it will mean the temperature will most probably be increased aswell if going by historical trends.

My concern about higher CO2 levels and temperature lies with the fact that there was much more plant life back than to utilize the CO2. Since plant life is not as abundant as it was than, what will happen to the CO2?

This last "brief" period of a couple of hundrad thousand years of relativly cold climate has been what allowed humanity to evolve and become the dominant spieces on earth. This and the inclusion of a high protein diet which directly effected the evolution of our current dominant brains........

Im well aware of what the earths past has been like, that is the core of my worries.

I too have concerns and some unanswered questions, but in all honesty, there is still plenty of time. The earth will face a large impact from space before it is slowly killed by man.

[Kärnfysikern]

My concern about higher CO2 levels and temperature lies with the fact that there was much more plant life back than to utilize the CO2. Since plant life is not as abundant as it was than, what will happen to the CO2?

It will simply stay in the atmosphere and a small amount will be absorbed by the oceans. It might increase vegitation a bit aswell.

I too have concerns and some unanswered questions, but in all honesty, there is still plenty of time. The earth will face a large impact from space before it is slowly killed by man.

I hope your right, if you can point your finger at me in 50 years and say "told you so" il be happy

I want to act now because it takes SO long to make the changes. If we wanted to phase out coal for instance and started mass building nuclear power plants it would still probably take a good 30-40 years before the work is done.

[tinyguy2]

i hope in 50 years my skin doesn't melt off

heres some link's on people opinions and skeptics.
http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?p=15...1&pb=1#more151


http://www.livescience.com/environme...l_warming.html

i agree with this guy(he's all nerdy and fat):

To understand the misconceptions perpetuated about climate science and the climate of intimidation, one needs to grasp some of the complex underlying scientific issues. First, let's start where there is agreement. The public, press and policy makers have been repeatedly told that three claims have widespread scientific support: Global temperature has risen about a degree since the late 19th century; levels of CO2 [carbon dioxide] in the atmosphere have increased by about 30 percent over the same period; and CO2 should contribute to future warming.

"These claims are true. However, what the public fails to grasp is that the claims neither constitute support for alarm nor establish man's responsibility for the small amount of warming that has occurred. In fact, those who make the most outlandish claims of alarm are actually demonstrating skepticism of the very science they say supports them. It isn't just that the alarmists are trumpeting model results that we know must be wrong. It is that they are trumpeting catastrophes that couldn't happen even if the models were right as justifying costly policies to try to prevent global warming."

[Mike Dura]

You probably didn't understand what I wrote! Sometimes a little capacity for abstract thought goes a long way toward getting the message.

After reading your myspace page, all that I can do is laugh when you post in here..............

[Ufa]

You probably didn't understand what I wrote! Sometimes a little capacity for abstract thought goes a long way toward getting the message.

Some could say the same thing about you. Mike is a stand up guy.

[tinyguy2]

what does someones myspace have anythnig to do with global warming. MAybe global fattening and laziness, but not gw.

[Logan13]

what does someones myspace have anythnig to do with global warming. MAybe global fattening and laziness, but not gw.

After reading his page, I sincerely have a hard time taking him seriously.

[Mike Dura]

After reading everything you write when you're discussing current events, theories or values, I never took you seriously. I'm suprised that I have even bothered responding to your posts - I really with the other readers in mind. But if I met a person like you in every day life, I'd just divert the conversation to simple things like the weather. It was rainy here today in NY how was it out there near you?

After reading his page, I sincerely have a hard time taking him seriously.

[Mike Dura]

I am a stand up guy. True some can say anything about anyone but what does that really amount to? The proof is in the pudding but whether are not a person can detect it depends on what they bring to the table.

Some could say the same thing about you. Mike is a stand up guy.

[tinyguy2]

I am a stand up guy. True some can say anything about anyone but what does that really amount to? The proof is in the pudding but whether are not a person can detect it depends on what they bring to the table.

where can i get some of this proof pudding? Is it chocolate, rice, vanilla variety pack? Is it made by snack pak cause that shit is delicious

[Logan13]

After reading everything you write when you're discussing current events, theories or values, I never took you seriously. I'm suprised that I have even bothered responding to your posts - I really with the other readers in mind. But if I met a person like you in every day life, I'd just divert the conversation to simple things like the weather. It was rainy here today in NY how was it out there near you?

Sorry, but I just think that you are a stroker.
That doesn't make you a bad person persay, and it is only my opinion.

[Kärnfysikern]

Much better to attack the argument not the person. Logan is a well respected member here.

There is no point at all in posting a post with the sole intention of trying to critique someones ability to think.

[Mike Dura]

Frankly, that's exactly what I think of you...I think you're horizons are narrow and it's amusing as you try to "weigh in" on the weighty topics you post.

You are reminiscent of Archie Bunker....zenophobic, drawing upon cliche, stereotypes, and oversimplifications and with an amusing level of confidence, bravado and self-rightousness. You are a character but I'm actually glad you post on the board. I'll never forget when you claimed to be a scientist working on the genome project yet you didn't grasp basic Darwinian theory! Lol!

I think that is kind of common (delusional types) and I can fault myself for feeling distaste for your air of false confidence and weak substance of your oppinions. Nevertheless, I picture you as a nice common guy though and maybe there's a charm to your swagger when it's delivered in person. Delusional types can be very charming but maybe it's not conveyed in writing. There's so much more to a person than the text on a page at a steroid forum.

Sorry, but I just think that you are a stroker.
That doesn't make you a bad person persay, and it is only my opinion.

[Mike Dura]

Is that what you think? Wow if that's true what does that say about the flock? Anyway, I think we're both just giving our oppinions. I don't think he needs you to defend him. Logan's a tough guy. He can handle it.

Much better to attack the argument not the person. Logan is a well respected member here.

There is no point at all in posting a post with the sole intention of trying to critique someones ability to think.

[Bigen12]

Much better to attack the argument not the person. Logan is a well respected member here.

There is no point at all in posting a post with the sole intention of trying to critique someones ability to think.

I agree,

If we just attack each other, this forum will start to look like a kindergarten playground.

Also, don't forget, this is just the internet guys.

[Kärnfysikern]

Is that what you think? Wow if that's true what does that say about the flock? Anyway, I think we're both just giving our oppinions. I don't think he needs you to defend him. Logan's a tough guy. He can handle it.

I know he can handle it. But this kind of argumentation adds nothing to the discussion, it just brings it down to a kindergarden level.

Remember, calling someone a idiot makes you look like a idiot, shreading someones argument makes him look like a idiot.

[Logan13]

There's so much more to a person than the text on a page at a steroid forum.

On that, we can agree.

[Prada]

I know he can handle it. But this kind of argumentation adds nothing to the discussion, it just brings it down to a kindergarden level.

Remember, calling someone a idiot makes you look like a idiot, shreading someones argument makes him look like a idiot.

I agree but the vast majority of individuals deem it easier to attack ones character versus the argument, unfortunatly.

Post script: Stop threadjacking, you incompetent imbeciles..

[Kärnfysikern]

I agree but the vast majority of individuals deem it easier to attack ones character versus the argument, unfortunatly.

Post script: Stop threadjacking, you incompetent imbeciles..

[Prada]

So I guess tock, myself, prada just to mention a few are right wing

Im as far off Rightwing as I am Leftwing, Im hovering around the center.

If your ass is sore because a bunch of members got ****ed then go lube it up somewhere else. Spewing out diarrhea here wont help.

Very well articulated, explicit but bravo.

[RA]

Hmmm let's see...

I'm in montreal, it's january, there should be 3 feet of snow on the ground by now and it should be around -20° daily.

I look outside, it +15° and the grass is green!

Nah, nothing wrong with the temperatures here... Is this the result of global warming? Probably, do I care? Hell no! anything to make winter more pleasant it a-ok with me

I think I'll go jogging outside today...

Red

You want to know how I know the "experts" are full of shit. They cant even tell me for certain why we have this every few years. Where we have a warmer winter with less snow and more southern states get slammed with snow and cold.

[Mike Dura]

I know he can handle it. But this kind of argumentation adds nothing to the discussion, it just brings it down to a kindergarden level.

First, it's not an "argumentation" it's more of a decleration.

Remember, calling someone a idiot makes you look like a idiot, shreading someones argument makes him look like a idiot.

I didn't call anyone an idiot. But I did critisize the quality of his reasoning and in general the posture he assumes.