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Thread: Snow falling in central Sweden

  1. #1
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    Snow falling in central Sweden

    Global warming...........

    Snow falling in central Sweden
    http://www.thelocal.se/7602/20070614/
    It might be only one week to Midsummer, but nobody seems to have told mother nature. Snow has returned to parts of central Sweden, with five centimetres falling in some places.

    The snowfall came in the mountainous Härjedalen area of northern Dalarna. A meteorologist from weather service SMHI told Svenska Dagbladet that snow was unusual at this time of year, usually falling roughly once every ten years.

    The snow follows weeks of warm summer weather, but a low pressure area caused a turn in conditions. Temperatures are expected to rise again tomorrow, reaching 15 to 18 degrees, SMHI predicts.

  2. #2
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    some crazy shit but its proven

  3. #3
    weather is not the same thing as climate

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    weather is not the same thing as climate
    really? Weather stats, taken over time, are what defines Climate. You are just reguritating this line.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    really? Weather stats, taken over time, are what defines Climate. You are just reguritating this line.
    Weather is measurements taken over a short periods of time while climate is weather patterns measured of many years as you said above. Your trying to disclaim global warming by saying it's snowing today in Sweden so global warming must be false. That's like saying one student got a 30 on the chem test, that means everybody did bad on the chem test. You need to know a larger percentage of the students math scores before you can accurately make that kind of claim. Look at Swedens weather of the last hundred years or so. Is the average temperature general up, is it stable, or is it going down? I

  6. #6
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    It has also been the second hottest june or something like that in recorded history in sweden...

    I would like some of that snow.

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    You cant really equate direct phenomenas with observations made on one day or a week. One can hypothesize on a trend over a significant lapse of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    Weather is measurements taken over a short periods of time while climate is weather patterns measured of many years as you said above. Your trying to disclaim global warming by saying it's snowing today in Sweden so global warming must be false. That's like saying one student got a 30 on the chem test, that means everybody did bad on the chem test. You need to know a larger percentage of the students math scores before you can accurately make that kind of claim. Look at Swedens weather of the last hundred years or so. Is the average temperature general up, is it stable, or is it going down? I
    Well, while your at it, look up what it was 1 million years ago as well. It was hotter back than and CO2 levels were alot higher.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Well, while your at it, look up what it was 1 million years ago as well. It was hotter back than and CO2 levels were alot higher.
    I'm not denying that there were higher CO2 levels during some periods in the past. But if you want to compare CO2 levels from large distances in time, you will have to account for things like the position of the continents, the sun, volcanic eruptions, asteroids, comic, and other cosmic events effecting the earth, the composition of the atmosphere, etc. These things will change a lot over millions over years so it only makes sense to make CO2 comparisons during time periods when world's conditions are essentially constant.

    is chirac liberal or conservative

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    [QUOTE=mcpeepants]I'm not denying that there were higher CO2 levels during some periods in the past. But if you want to compare CO2 levels from large distances in time, you will have to account for things like the position of the continents, the sun, volcanic eruptions, asteroids, comic, and other cosmic events effecting the earth, the composition of the atmosphere, etc. These things will change a lot over millions over years so it only makes sense to make CO2 comparisons during time periods when world's conditions are essentially constant.
    All of that is besides the point. Did the world continue, even with such high CO2 numbers? You need to do a little more research on the CO2 levels of the past 200 years.QUOTE]

  11. #11
    [quote=Logan13] All of that is besides the point. Did the world continue, even with such high CO2 numbers? You need to do a little more research on the CO2 levels of the past 200 years


    This is directly to the point and shows how you like to dodge questions, particularly the ones you have asked. First you say we have to look back millions of year and now your saying look back 200 years. This is a link of showing the trend of the Earth's temp since 1880. It's not 200 years but you get the point:

    http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/1...m_trend_lg.jpg
    http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/env...ld_warmth.html

    High CO2 levels are not going to destroy mankind, however, the resulting climate change will cause some animals to go extinct and some to prosper.

    is chirac liberal or conservative?

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    [QUOTE=mcpeepants]
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    All of that is besides the point. Did the world continue, even with such high CO2 numbers? You need to do a little more research on the CO2 levels of the past 200 years
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13

    This is directly to the point and shows how you like to dodge questions, particularly the ones you have asked. First you say we have to look back millions of year and now your saying look back 200 years. This is a link of showing the trend of the Earth's temp since 1880. It's not 200 years but you get the point:

    http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/1...m_trend_lg.jpg
    http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/env...ld_warmth.html

    High CO2 levels are not going to destroy mankind, however, the resulting climate change will cause some animals to go extinct and some to prosper.

    is chirac liberal or conservative?
    News flash: animals and plants have continually gone extinct since the beginning of life. Your are obviously unable to view the climate cycle of the earth outside of your personal ideaology. The last ice age just ended 10,000 years ago, would you like to revert to that climate? The earth is logically going to warm back up to pre-Ice Age temps of 70,000 years ago. The earth's climate is not, never has been, nor can it be made to be unchanging. Chirac is a socialist.

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=mcpeepants]
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    All of that is besides the point. Did the world continue, even with such high CO2 numbers? You need to do a little more research on the CO2 levels of the past 200 years
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13

    This is directly to the point and shows how you like to dodge questions, particularly the ones you have asked. First you say we have to look back millions of year and now your saying look back 200 years. This is a link of showing the trend of the Earth's temp since 1880. It's not 200 years but you get the point:

    http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/1...m_trend_lg.jpg
    http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/env...ld_warmth.html

    High CO2 levels are not going to destroy mankind, however, the resulting climate change will cause some animals to go extinct and some to prosper.

    is chirac liberal or conservative?
    Dodge indeed. Your are consistently unable to stay on topic.

    Now Prepare for "Dangerous Global Cooling"
    Drudge Report
    06/20/07

    The fact that science is many years away from properly understanding global climate doesn't seem to bother our leaders at all. Inviting testimony only from those who don't question political orthodoxy on the issue, parliamentarians are charging ahead with the impossible and expensive goal of "stopping global climate change." Liberal MP Ralph Goodale's June 11 House of Commons assertion that Parliament should have "a real good discussion about the potential for carbon capture and sequestration in dealing with carbon dioxide, which has tremendous potential for improving the climate, not only here in Canada but around the world," would be humorous were he, and even the current government, not deadly serious about devoting vast resources to this hopeless crusade.

    Climate stability has never been a feature of planet Earth. The only constant about climate is change; it changes continually and, at times, quite rapidly. Many times in the past, temperatures were far higher than today, and occasionally, temperatures were colder. As recently as 6,000 years ago, it was about 3C warmer than now. Ten thousand years ago, while the world was coming out of the thou-sand-year-long "Younger Dryas" cold episode, temperatures rose as much as 6C in a decade -- 100 times faster than the past century's 0.6C warming that has so upset environmentalists.

    Climate-change research is now literally exploding with new findings. Since the 1997 Kyoto Protocol, the field has had more research than in all previous years combined and the discoveries are completely shattering the myths. For example, I and the first-class scientists I work with are consistently finding excellent correlations between the regular fluctuations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate. This is not surprising. The sun and the stars are the ultimate source of all energy on the planet.

    My interest in the current climate-change debate was triggered in 1998, when I was funded by a Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council strategic project grant to determine if there were regular cycles in West Coast fish productivity. As a result of wide swings in the populations of anchovies, herring and other commercially important West Coast fish stock, fisheries managers were having a very difficult time establishing appropriate fishing quotas. One season there would be abundant stock and broad harvesting would be acceptable; the very next year the fisheries would collapse. No one really knew why or how to predict the future health of this crucially important resource.


    Although climate was suspected to play a significant role in marine productivity, only since the beginning of the 20th century have accurate fishing and temperature records been kept in this region of the northeast Pacific. We needed indicators of fish productivity over thousands of years to see whether there were recurring cycles in populations and what phenomena may be driving the changes.

    My research team began to collect and analyze core samples from the bottom of deep Western Canadian fjords. The regions in which we chose to conduct our research, Effingham Inlet on the West Coast of Vancouver Island, and in 2001, sounds in the Belize-Seymour Inlet complex on the mainland coast of British Columbia, were perfect for this sort of work. The topography of these fjords is such that they contain deep basins that are subject to little water transfer from the open ocean and so water near the bottom is relatively stagnant and very low in oxygen content. As a consequence, the floors of these basins are mostly lifeless and sediment layers build up year after year, undisturbed over millennia.

    Using various coring technologies, we have been able to collect more than 5,000 years' worth of mud in these basins, with the oldest layers coming from a ***th of about 11 metres below the fjord floor. Clearly visible in our mud cores are annual changes that record the different seasons: corresponding to the cool, rainy winter seasons, we see dark layers composed mostly of dirt washed into the fjord from the land; in the warm summer months we see abundant fossilized fish scales and diatoms (the most common form of phytoplankton, or single-celled ocean plants) that have fallen to the fjord floor from nutrient-rich surface waters. In years when warm summers dominated climate in the region, we clearly see far thicker layers of diatoms and fish scales than we do in cooler years. Ours is one of the highest-quality climate records available anywhere today and in it we see obvious confirmation that natural climate change can be dramatic. For example, in the middle of a 62-year slice of the record at about 4,400 years ago, there was a shift in climate in only a couple of seasons from warm, dry and sunny conditions to one that was mostly cold and rainy for several decades.

    Using computers to conduct what is referred to as a "time series analysis" on the colouration and thickness of the annual layers, we have discovered repeated cycles in marine productivity in this, a region larger than Europe. Specifically, we find a very strong and consistent 11-year cycle throughout the whole record in the sediments and diatom remains. This correlates closely to the well-known 11-year "Schwabe" sunspot cycle, during which the output of the sun varies by about 0.1%. Sunspots, violent storms on the surface of the sun, have the effect of increasing solar output, so, by counting the spots visible on the surface of our star, we have an indirect measure of its varying brightness. Such records have been kept for many centuries and match very well with the changes in marine productivity we are observing.


    In the sediment, diatom and fish-scale records, we also see longer period cycles, all correlating closely with other well-known regular solar variations. In particular, we see marine productivity cycles that match well with the sun's 75-90-year "Gleissberg Cycle," the 200-500-year "Suess Cycle" and the 1,100-1,500-year "Bond Cycle." The strength of these cycles is seen to vary over time, fading in and out over the millennia. The variation in the sun's brightness over these longer cycles may be many times greater in magnitude than that measured over the short Schwabe cycle and so are seen to impact marine productivity even more significantly.

    Our finding of a direct correlation between variations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate indicators (called "proxies") is not unique. Hundreds of other studies, using proxies from tree rings in Russia's Kola Peninsula to water levels of the Nile, show exactly the same thing: The sun appears to drive climate change.

    However, there was a problem. Despite this clear and repeated correlation, the measured variations in incoming solar energy were, on their own, not sufficient to cause the climate changes we have observed in our proxies. In addition, even though the sun is brighter now than at any time in the past 8,000 years, the increase in direct solar input is not calculated to be sufficient to cause the past century's modest warming on its own. There had to be an amplifier of some sort for the sun to be a primary driver of climate change.

    Indeed, that is precisely what has been discovered. In a series of groundbreaking scientific papers starting in 2002, Veizer, Shaviv, Carslaw, and most recently Svensmark et al., have collectively demonstrated that as the output of the sun varies, and with it, our star's protective solar wind, varying amounts of galactic cosmic rays from deep space are able to enter our solar system and penetrate the Earth's atmosphere. These cosmic rays enhance cloud formation which, overall, has a cooling effect on the planet. When the sun's energy output is greater, not only does the Earth warm slightly due to direct solar heating, but the stronger solar wind generated during these "high sun" periods blocks many of the cosmic rays from entering our atmosphere. Cloud cover decreases and the Earth warms still more.

    The opposite occurs when the sun is less bright. More cosmic rays are able to get through to Earth's atmosphere, more clouds form, and the planet cools more than would otherwise be the case due to direct solar effects alone. This is precisely what happened from the middle of the 17th century into the early 18th century, when the solar energy input to our atmosphere, as indicated by the number of sunspots, was at a minimum and the planet was stuck in the Little Ice Age. These new findings suggest that changes in the output of the sun caused the most recent climate change. By comparison, CO2 variations show little correlation with our planet's climate on long, medium and even short time scales.


    In some fields the science is indeed "settled." For example, plate tectonics, once highly controversial, is now so well-established that we rarely see papers on the subject at all. But the science of global climate change is still in its infancy, with many thousands of papers published every year. In a 2003 poll conducted by German environmental researchers Dennis Bray and Hans von Storch, two-thirds of more than 530 climate scientists from 27 countries surveyed did not believe that "the current state of scientific knowledge is developed well enough to allow for a reasonable assessment of the effects of greenhouse gases." About half of those polled stated that the science of climate change was not sufficiently settled to pass the issue over to policymakers at all.

    Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us.

    Meantime, we need to continue research into this, the most complex field of science ever tackled, and immediately halt wasted expenditures on the King Canute-like task of "stopping climate change."

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=Logan13]
    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    [B]

    News flash: animals and plants have continually gone extinct since the beginning of life. Your are obviously unable to view the climate cycle of the earth outside of your personal ideaology. The last ice age just ended 10,000 years ago, would you like to revert to that climate? The earth is logically going to warm back up to pre-Ice Age temps of 70,000 years ago. The earth's climate is not, never has been, nor can it be made to be unchanging. Chirac is a socialist.
    That newsflash sound like a 5 year just told it to you today. Of course animals go extinct or there would be still dinosaurs, giant reptiles, giant insects, etc walking around today. So am I getting that you want to dump more pollutants in the air so we can avoid another ice? That reasoning seems to neglect that we're talking about average temperature, so actual temperature variations around the planet could be marginal or extreme. Also it seems that if we heat up the earth, there will probably be more moisture in the air. With all that water in the air, a sudden cold snap could cause severe snow storms that might start another ice age even sooner. Who is saying the that earth's climate doesn't change? I guess you didn't look at any of the links I posted on Chirac, his policies, gaullist, his leadership in various center-right parties, or that he beat socialist candidates when he ran for presidency.

  15. #15
    [QUOTE=Logan13]
    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    [B]
    Dodge indeed. Your are consistently unable to stay on topic.

    Now Prepare for "Dangerous Global Cooling"
    Drudge Report
    06/20/07

    The fact that science is many years away from properly understanding global climate doesn't seem to bother our leaders at all. Inviting testimony only from those who don't question political orthodoxy on the issue, parliamentarians are charging ahead with the impossible and expensive goal of "stopping global climate change." Liberal MP Ralph Goodale's June 11 House of Commons assertion that Parliament should have "a real good discussion about the potential for carbon capture and sequestration in dealing with carbon dioxide, which has tremendous potential for improving the climate, not only here in Canada but around the world," would be humorous were he, and even the current government, not deadly serious about devoting vast resources to this hopeless crusade.

    Climate stability has never been a feature of planet Earth. The only constant about climate is change; it changes continually and, at times, quite rapidly. Many times in the past, temperatures were far higher than today, and occasionally, temperatures were colder. As recently as 6,000 years ago, it was about 3C warmer than now. Ten thousand years ago, while the world was coming out of the thou-sand-year-long "Younger Dryas" cold episode, temperatures rose as much as 6C in a decade -- 100 times faster than the past century's 0.6C warming that has so upset environmentalists.

    Climate-change research is now literally exploding with new findings. Since the 1997 Kyoto Protocol, the field has had more research than in all previous years combined and the discoveries are completely shattering the myths. For example, I and the first-class scientists I work with are consistently finding excellent correlations between the regular fluctuations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate. This is not surprising. The sun and the stars are the ultimate source of all energy on the planet.

    My interest in the current climate-change debate was triggered in 1998, when I was funded by a Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council strategic project grant to determine if there were regular cycles in West Coast fish productivity. As a result of wide swings in the populations of anchovies, herring and other commercially important West Coast fish stock, fisheries managers were having a very difficult time establishing appropriate fishing quotas. One season there would be abundant stock and broad harvesting would be acceptable; the very next year the fisheries would collapse. No one really knew why or how to predict the future health of this crucially important resource.


    Although climate was suspected to play a significant role in marine productivity, only since the beginning of the 20th century have accurate fishing and temperature records been kept in this region of the northeast Pacific. We needed indicators of fish productivity over thousands of years to see whether there were recurring cycles in populations and what phenomena may be driving the changes.

    My research team began to collect and analyze core samples from the bottom of deep Western Canadian fjords. The regions in which we chose to conduct our research, Effingham Inlet on the West Coast of Vancouver Island, and in 2001, sounds in the Belize-Seymour Inlet complex on the mainland coast of British Columbia, were perfect for this sort of work. The topography of these fjords is such that they contain deep basins that are subject to little water transfer from the open ocean and so water near the bottom is relatively stagnant and very low in oxygen content. As a consequence, the floors of these basins are mostly lifeless and sediment layers build up year after year, undisturbed over millennia.

    Using various coring technologies, we have been able to collect more than 5,000 years' worth of mud in these basins, with the oldest layers coming from a ***th of about 11 metres below the fjord floor. Clearly visible in our mud cores are annual changes that record the different seasons: corresponding to the cool, rainy winter seasons, we see dark layers composed mostly of dirt washed into the fjord from the land; in the warm summer months we see abundant fossilized fish scales and diatoms (the most common form of phytoplankton, or single-celled ocean plants) that have fallen to the fjord floor from nutrient-rich surface waters. In years when warm summers dominated climate in the region, we clearly see far thicker layers of diatoms and fish scales than we do in cooler years. Ours is one of the highest-quality climate records available anywhere today and in it we see obvious confirmation that natural climate change can be dramatic. For example, in the middle of a 62-year slice of the record at about 4,400 years ago, there was a shift in climate in only a couple of seasons from warm, dry and sunny conditions to one that was mostly cold and rainy for several decades.

    Using computers to conduct what is referred to as a "time series analysis" on the colouration and thickness of the annual layers, we have discovered repeated cycles in marine productivity in this, a region larger than Europe. Specifically, we find a very strong and consistent 11-year cycle throughout the whole record in the sediments and diatom remains. This correlates closely to the well-known 11-year "Schwabe" sunspot cycle, during which the output of the sun varies by about 0.1%. Sunspots, violent storms on the surface of the sun, have the effect of increasing solar output, so, by counting the spots visible on the surface of our star, we have an indirect measure of its varying brightness. Such records have been kept for many centuries and match very well with the changes in marine productivity we are observing.


    In the sediment, diatom and fish-scale records, we also see longer period cycles, all correlating closely with other well-known regular solar variations. In particular, we see marine productivity cycles that match well with the sun's 75-90-year "Gleissberg Cycle," the 200-500-year "Suess Cycle" and the 1,100-1,500-year "Bond Cycle." The strength of these cycles is seen to vary over time, fading in and out over the millennia. The variation in the sun's brightness over these longer cycles may be many times greater in magnitude than that measured over the short Schwabe cycle and so are seen to impact marine productivity even more significantly.

    Our finding of a direct correlation between variations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate indicators (called "proxies") is not unique. Hundreds of other studies, using proxies from tree rings in Russia's Kola Peninsula to water levels of the Nile, show exactly the same thing: The sun appears to drive climate change.

    However, there was a problem. Despite this clear and repeated correlation, the measured variations in incoming solar energy were, on their own, not sufficient to cause the climate changes we have observed in our proxies. In addition, even though the sun is brighter now than at any time in the past 8,000 years, the increase in direct solar input is not calculated to be sufficient to cause the past century's modest warming on its own. There had to be an amplifier of some sort for the sun to be a primary driver of climate change.

    Indeed, that is precisely what has been discovered. In a series of groundbreaking scientific papers starting in 2002, Veizer, Shaviv, Carslaw, and most recently Svensmark et al., have collectively demonstrated that as the output of the sun varies, and with it, our star's protective solar wind, varying amounts of galactic cosmic rays from deep space are able to enter our solar system and penetrate the Earth's atmosphere. These cosmic rays enhance cloud formation which, overall, has a cooling effect on the planet. When the sun's energy output is greater, not only does the Earth warm slightly due to direct solar heating, but the stronger solar wind generated during these "high sun" periods blocks many of the cosmic rays from entering our atmosphere. Cloud cover decreases and the Earth warms still more.

    The opposite occurs when the sun is less bright. More cosmic rays are able to get through to Earth's atmosphere, more clouds form, and the planet cools more than would otherwise be the case due to direct solar effects alone. This is precisely what happened from the middle of the 17th century into the early 18th century, when the solar energy input to our atmosphere, as indicated by the number of sunspots, was at a minimum and the planet was stuck in the Little Ice Age. These new findings suggest that changes in the output of the sun caused the most recent climate change. By comparison, CO2 variations show little correlation with our planet's climate on long, medium and even short time scales.


    In some fields the science is indeed "settled." For example, plate tectonics, once highly controversial, is now so well-established that we rarely see papers on the subject at all. But the science of global climate change is still in its infancy, with many thousands of papers published every year. In a 2003 poll conducted by German environmental researchers Dennis Bray and Hans von Storch, two-thirds of more than 530 climate scientists from 27 countries surveyed did not believe that "the current state of scientific knowledge is developed well enough to allow for a reasonable assessment of the effects of greenhouse gases." About half of those polled stated that the science of climate change was not sufficiently settled to pass the issue over to policymakers at all.

    Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us.

    Meantime, we need to continue research into this, the most complex field of science ever tackled, and immediately halt wasted expenditures on the King Canute-like task of "stopping climate change."
    Ten thousand years ago, while the world was coming out of the thou-sand-year-long "Younger Dryas" cold episode, temperatures rose as much as 6C in a decade -- 100 times faster than the past century's 0.6C warming that has so upset environmentalists.


    Again who is saying that the Earth's climate is not changing. The author talks about the "Younger Dryas" event and how the temperature rose much faster. I'm wondering if you can make a direct comparison between that event and today. I was glancing at this event at wikipedia but they didn't give a definite reason why such a rapid temperature rise occured. However, I'm wondering if you can make direct comparisons between that sudden rise in temperature and today's rise in temperature. Were the conditions on the Earth and the sun similar or were they different from today? How does the rate of melting ice effect how fast the earth's average temperature changes? How much CO2, O2, and other gases were in the atmosphere during the event and how do they compare today? Also we must take account that we presently living through are present temperature rise. We wont know what the world average temperature peak will be for sometime and we might get a even sharper rise in the future. Also if you look at the NASA graph I posted, it shows that that has been a rise in the earth temperature since the industrial revolution. If you look at the graph you'll notice how the temperature rise has started to get steeper in the 1960. The other thing to consider is how responsive is the Earth's atmosphere to changes in levels greenhouse gases? Air has a low thermal diffusivity so it will respond slowly to changes in it's thermal environment and take some time to reach a new equilibrium condition. Is the temperature rise happening today the result of greenhouse gas emissions from today, a year ago, a decade, decades ago, from the 1800 hundreds?

  16. #16
    We'll see what happens, I'm sure. Either nothing will happen and our climate will stay stable or it will change.

    I suppose it's like smoking. There's plenty of literature on the subject but each individual is different. There is no 100% certainty that it would go either way--cancer or problem-free lifestyle. I suppose the difference here being that one could put down the cigarette and avoid the possibility altogether, same as with "fossil fuels." I don't see the long-term benefits to poor air quality, skies choked with smog (I live in Southern California. We can't see our mountains, which are 30 miles away), asthmatic problems caused by particles in the air, etc. The only benefits are economic and a fear of change. So I can see both sides of the argument.

  17. #17
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    [QUOTE=mcpeepants]
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13

    Ten thousand years ago, while the world was coming out of the thou-sand-year-long "Younger Dryas" cold episode, temperatures rose as much as 6C in a decade -- 100 times faster than the past century's 0.6C warming that has so upset environmentalists.


    Again who is saying that the Earth's climate is not changing. The author talks about the "Younger Dryas" event and how the temperature rose much faster. I'm wondering if you can make a direct comparison between that event and today. I was glancing at this event at wikipedia but they didn't give a definite reason why such a rapid temperature rise occured. However, I'm wondering if you can make direct comparisons between that sudden rise in temperature and today's rise in temperature. Were the conditions on the Earth and the sun similar or were they different from today? How does the rate of melting ice effect how fast the earth's average temperature changes? How much CO2, O2, and other gases were in the atmosphere during the event and how do they compare today? Also we must take account that we presently living through are present temperature rise. We wont know what the world average temperature peak will be for sometime and we might get a even sharper rise in the future. Also if you look at the NASA graph I posted, it shows that that has been a rise in the earth temperature since the industrial revolution. If you look at the graph you'll notice how the temperature rise has started to get steeper in the 1960. The other thing to consider is how responsive is the Earth's atmosphere to changes in levels greenhouse gases? Air has a low thermal diffusivity so it will respond slowly to changes in it's thermal environment and take some time to reach a new equilibrium condition. Is the temperature rise happening today the result of greenhouse gas emissions from today, a year ago, a decade, decades ago, from the 1800 hundreds?
    The earth's climate will never be stable. It will forever be changing as it goes through it's climatic cycle. Nothing that man does can change it. Some day California will seperate from North America (although philosophically it already has), there is nothing that man can do to stop this, regardless of the man made structures that will be destroyed by it. The earth will continue as it always has, regardless of our efforts otherwise.

  18. #18
    [QUOTE=Logan13]
    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants
    The earth's climate will never be stable. It will forever be changing as it goes through it's climatic cycle. Nothing that man does can change it. Some day California will seperate from North America (although philosophically it already has), there is nothing that man can do to stop this, regardless of the man made structures that will be destroyed by it. The earth will continue as it always has, regardless of our efforts otherwise.
    No one is saying the earth's climate is stable. Right now humans can't stop the movement of tectonic plates but eventually i bet we will be able to. i think in several hundreds or thousands of years, as long as we don't kill ourselves or some major cosmic or earth disaster ocucrs, humans will be able to control the weather, reshape the earth, move the earth, control the sun, live considerably longer, control the sun, travel to other galaxies and colonize other worlds, etc.

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=mcpeepants]
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13

    No one is saying the earth's climate is stable. Right now humans can't stop the movement of tectonic plates but eventually i bet we will be able to. i think in several hundreds or thousands of years, as long as we don't kill ourselves or some major cosmic or earth disaster ocucrs, humans will be able to control the weather, reshape the earth, move the earth, control the sun, live considerably longer, control the sun, travel to other galaxies and colonize other worlds, etc.
    You are a Star Trek groupie, aren't you?

  20. #20
    [QUOTE=Logan13]
    Quote Originally Posted by mcpeepants

    You are a Star Trek groupie, aren't you?
    Never watched the show. But you must admit, the technology progress of man kind in the last few thousands years and particularly the last 200 years is staggering. Just image what will happen in the next hundred years, next few hundreds, a thousands years from now, and farther if we don't destroy ourselves and a catastrophic event that causes us go extinct doesn't occur. Imaging telling someone before we invented the wheel that we can send men to the moon and that we're planning a trip to mars. They would think your crazy.

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    [QUOTE=mcpeepants]
    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13

    But you must admit, the technology progress of man kind in the last few thousands years and particularly the last 200 years is staggering. Just image what will happen in the next hundred years, next few hundreds, a thousands years from now, and farther if we don't destroy ourselves and a catastrophic event that causes us go extinct doesn't occur. Imaging telling someone before we invented the wheel that we can send men to the moon and that we're planning a trip to mars. They would think your crazy.
    It is very intersting to think about.

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