Moore on Blitzer, CNN.

[Prada]

Scroll down to see the embedded clip of Moore on Blitzers show. Poor Wolf

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Michae...r_on_0709.html

[Logan13]

Scroll down to see the embedded clip of Moore on Blitzers show. Poor Wolf

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Michae...r_on_0709.html

Socialized medicine is not what this country needs. Next it will be socialized housing, education, etc. Get in the market and compete, there will always be winners and losers in life. Bringing the level of success down does nothing but hurt a civilization.

[Hoggage_54]

Socialized medicine is not what this country needs. Next it will be socialized housing, education, etc. Get in the market and compete, there will always be winners and losers in life. Bringing the level of success down does nothing but hurt a civilization.

Are you saying cancer should be profitable?

[Logan13]

Are you saying cancer should be profitable?

Are you saying that people who go to school for 12 years and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars should not enter into profitable business? If it were not so, we would loose many of the brightest candidates for the job.
Competition makes us better.

[Coop77]

Socialized medicine is not what this country needs. Next it will be socialized housing, education, etc. Get in the market and compete, there will always be winners and losers in life. Bringing the level of success down does nothing but hurt a civilization.

Sorry to tell you this but education is already socialized. We all pay taxes for public schools. Bush moved to socialize it further with school vouchers - giving tax money to private religious schools.

[Coop77]

Socialized medicine is not what this country needs. Next it will be socialized housing, education, etc. Get in the market and compete, there will always be winners and losers in life. Bringing the level of success down does nothing but hurt a civilization.

You should tell this to the 50 million uninsured children who don't receive any healthcare. "Get a job you lazy little bastards."

[Logan13]

Sorry to tell you this but education is already socialized. We all pay taxes for public schools. Bush moved to socialize it further with school vouchers - giving tax money to private religious schools.

I am speaking of higher education. Were you to have had any, you would have picked up on this...........

[Logan13]

You should tell this to the 50 million uninsured children who don't receive any healthcare. "Get a job you lazy little bastards."

How many US children do you know who were turned away from a hospital? If it is so bad, how are illegal immigrants able to bring their children to ER's in America? Quit spewing sound bites.

[Coop77]

I am speaking of higher education. Were you to have had any, you would have picked up on this...........

That's socialized too. Tax money goes to public universities.

[Coop77]

How many US children do you know who were turned away from a hospital? If it is so bad, how are illegal immigrants able to bring their children to ER's in America? Quit spewing sound bites.

Quality healthcare includes preventative medicine - regular visits to a doctor, immunizations, etc that prevent and detect major problems before they develop. Not just emergency ER visits.

[Logan13]

That's socialized too. Tax money goes to public universities.

I think that you have a skewed view of what socialism is.
Public money does not define socialism. If everyone had their higher education paid for via draconian taxes, then it would be socialized.

Want an example of where your tax dollars go at the Universities?

Michigan University Plans to Install Foot-washing Basins for Muslims
The University of Michigan-Dearborn announced today that it plans to install a foot-washing basin to accommodate its burgeoning Muslim student population. The plan would cost the university $25,000--a number that angered some area residents who accuse the university of using public funds for religious accommodations.
The move comes just months after Minneapolis Community and Technical College, or MCTC, unveiled a similar plan, after one of its students was injured while ritually washing her feet in a bathroom sink.

Muslim students wash their hands, face and feet before saying their daily five prayers. Some 15 colleges and universities around the country have implemented similar facilities to accommodate them, but doing so is often a perfect recipe for controversy.

MCTC President received more than 3,000 furious e-mails and calls when the college's plan was first made public.

The Michigan university plans to build floor-level basins at two of its bathrooms in August.

[Coop77]

I think that you have a skewed view of what socialism is.
Public money does not define socialism. If everyone had their higher education paid for via draconian taxes, then it would be socialized.

So are you saying you think some public money for public healthcare is alright, as long as it's not totally free? After all, it's not officially socialized unless it's fully subsidized by the gov't.

[Coop77]

We have plenty of members on this board from the UK and other countries. I'm curious to see what their opinion on socialized medicine in their country is. I think I'll start a thread in the lounge..

[Logan13]

So are you saying you think some public money for public healthcare is alright, as long as it's not totally free? After all, it's not officially socialized unless it's fully subsidized by the gov't.

Most universities are state run. Look at the pricetag on private higher education vs. state U's. Even state-run universities make a profit.

[Logan13]

Quality healthcare includes preventative medicine - regular visits to a doctor, immunizations, etc that prevent and detect major problems before they develop. Not just emergency ER visits.

Un-insured children get free immunizations.

[Tock]

Socialized medicine is not what this country needs. Next it will be socialized housing, education, etc. Get in the market and compete, there will always be winners and losers in life. Bringing the level of success down does nothing but hurt a civilization.

How about socialized police and fire protection? That's paid for out of our taxes. Strict Libertarians support doing away with this public service. They'd have property owners subscribe to private security companies and private fire protection companies for their services. Whatcha think about doing away with these socialized services?

I might add that churches get these services for free, which IMHO, they shouldn't. They don't pay taxes, they don't pay fees for these services. Seems reasonable to me that if they don't pay, and they expect these things for free, that makes them nothing but leeches on the public treasury.

[Hoggage_54]

Are you saying that people who go to school for 12 years and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars should not enter into profitable business? If it were not so, we would loose many of the brightest candidates for the job.
Competition makes us better.

I'm not talking about doctors. I'm talking about insurance companies that are doing everything they can to profit from the illnesses of others and rewarding employees who deny coverage to customers, making them more money. Americans pay 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care, but has some of the lowest life expectancies and infant mortality rates compared to these countries. What Michael Moore and countless others have been saying for years would put more money in your pockets. Why do you think these pharmaceutical companies are trying so hard to block generic drugs from being allowed in the United States? Americans would be receiving the same drugs for less money, a big business no-no. More money in your pockets would allow you to spend or invest elsewhere, keeping the economy on track. We (Canadians) are paying nearly half per capita for health care than Americans ($2,163 versus $4,887 in 2001).

http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
http://cthealth.server101.com/the_ca...ted_states.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0223-01.htm

Here's some more interesting facts. The province of Ontario now produces more automobiles than Michigan. Why? Because GM, Ford and Toyota are moving their factories there because they save money on health costs, along with government incentives. By them moving to Ontario, they are creating more jobs for Canadians and boosting our economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors

[Logan13]

I'm not talking about doctors. I'm talking about insurance companies that are doing everything they can to profit from the illnesses of others and rewarding employees who deny coverage to customers, making them more money. Americans pay 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care, but has some of the lowest life expectancies and infant mortality rates compared to these countries. What Michael Moore and countless others have been saying for years would put more money in your pockets. Why do you think these pharmaceutical companies are trying so hard to block generic drugs from being allowed in the United States? Americans would be receiving the same drugs for less money, a big business no-no. More money in your pockets would allow you to spend or invest elsewhere, keeping the economy on track. We (Canadians) are paying nearly half per capita for health care than Americans ($2,163 versus $4,887 in 2001).

http://www.nchc.org/facts/coverage.shtml
http://cthealth.server101.com/the_ca...ted_states.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0223-01.htm

Here's some more interesting facts. The province of Ontario now produces more automobiles than Michigan. Why? Because GM, Ford and Toyota are moving their factories there because they save money on health costs, along with government incentives. By them moving to Ontario, they are creating more jobs for Canadians and boosting our economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors

Insurance companies are out of control. Anyone who says otherwise is just not being homest about the current situation. I have a couple of married employees who make $14 and $15 per hour. During a 40 hour work week they make $560-$600. Their healthcare premiums cost them $620/month! Their healthcare premiums cost our company an additional $400/month each. My company has 120 employees and I have shopped around for better rates and coverage, but the market is set and everyone is charging these absurd prices. But do not make Canadien healthcare out to be something that it is not. Those who have the means come to the US for serious problems.

[Logan13]

tm[/url]

Here's some more interesting facts. The province of Ontario now produces more automobiles than Michigan. Why? Because GM, Ford and Toyota are moving their factories there because they save money on health costs, along with government incentives. By them moving to Ontario, they are creating more jobs for Canadians and boosting our economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors

All of the big auto makers are paying healthcare premiums on employess that retired 20 and 30 years ago, that is what is causing their bottom line to dip into the red. Union contracts from the past that made these companies responsible for paying for the healthcare premiums of workers until death is to blame. Wouldn't it be great if all companies would do this, hell yes. But these companies are in business to make a profit, the same reason that you and I get up every day and go to work. No one can expect anyone, even a large company, to operate in the red in order to pay for cradle to grave entitlements. The Unions have forced many, many companies to move outside of the US. This only hurts the workers who will be losing these jobs. Wanna point fingers, point them at Big Union.

[Huckster]

All of the big auto makers are paying healthcare premiums on employess that retired 20 and 30 years ago, that is what is causing their bottom line to dip into the red. Union contracts from the past that made these companies responsible for paying for the healthcare premiums of workers until death is to blame. Wouldn't it be great if all companies would do this, hell yes. But these companies are in business to make a profit, the same reason that you and I get up every day and go to work. No one can expect anyone, even a large company, to operate in the red in order to pay for cradle to grave entitlements. The Unions have forced many, many companies to move outside of the US. This only hurts the workers who will be losing these jobs. Wanna point fingers, point them at Big Union.

Exactly right! Well put.

I live in the Midwest as well and know several people who work for the auto industry and places like delphi. A friend of mine was getting paid $27/hour to put two connectors on a wire harness! They did this for 8 years of their lives, working 8 hours a day. Eventually the plant closes and these people can't find another job w/that pay. They get used to the pay from the union contracts and live that way and boom left out cold. These folks are my friends but I hardly feel too bad for them. With getting paid that much and having all that free time, they should have seen the writing on the wall and gone to school while still raking in the cash. But most didn't because 'the union will take care of us.'

[Hoggage_54]

Their healthcare premiums cost them $620/month! Their healthcare premiums cost our company an additional $400/month each. My company has 120 employees and I have shopped around for better rates and coverage, but the market is set and everyone is charging these absurd prices.

All of the big auto makers are paying healthcare premiums on employess that retired 20 and 30 years ago, that is what is causing their bottom line to dip into the red. Union contracts from the past that made these companies responsible for paying for the healthcare premiums of workers until death is to blame.

Like I said, the big three are moving operations to Canada because they are saving money on benefits because insurance companies are raping Americans up the ass. By saying insurance companies are out of control, you are helping me prove my point. GM, Ford and Chrysler would not be losing so much money on benefits if insurance companies weren't raising premiums to new heights. CAW members are making $26 Canadian/hour, get the same benefits UAW workers were, at the same time companies are paying less for benefits and increasing profits through savings because of our healthcare system.

Also, you can't blame the union for the big three losing more than 20% of the market share in the past 10 years. They put together what is given to them. Poor design, inefficient motors, and unattractive vehicles are killing the big three.

If anything, I should be thanking the American insurance companies. They are giving us the high paying jobs that American's once took great pride in.

[Prada]

Socialized medicine is not what this country needs. Next it will be socialized housing, education, etc. Get in the market and compete, there will always be winners and losers in life. Bringing the level of success down does nothing but hurt a civilization.

A socialized health care system irks me acutely because I just don't like the idea in general of government spending tax payers money on social health care system or rather being in the business of it. The are inefficient, incompetent they have no incentive towards controlling expenses and billions of dollars goes to waste, many abuse it and so forth. Many upper management siphon money, hire cronies, annual auditing is not as important as a private for profit company. Hence in Canada or France yes they have decent universal health care but the quality the get and the taxes they pay for it just dont justify it. Who are the losers? The less then affluent ones, hence their has to be some government intervention but very little.

[Fat Guy]

It is funny because I’ve seen some valid points in this thread made by Tock and Coop but were completely ignored or minimized, but I think are the crux of this thread. There are many services that are socialized here in the U.S. and guess what it is not a bad thing. I am willing to pay a little extra in order for my fellow human being to have medical coverage when needed (and in a sense in the U.S. we already do) and I do not have a problem with if people want to attain higher education. You know every social scientist will agree that an educated and healthy society is better for all of society at large. Pure capitalist ideals are outdated models for running society. And if you look at societies that are based on pure capitalism principle they are not societies you would usually want to live in (India, Hong Kong, ect.). A pure capitalist society usually ends up with wealth accumulated in one small section while every thing tends to become impoverished. It is always better to have a more even distribution of wealth in a society. I think a good example of this can be seen by the Wallmart effect. Wallmart is one of the top money making businesses in the U.S. however most of their employees are the below the U.S. poverty line. IMHO there is something wrong with that system. Where is the social consciousness in this picture?

Don't get me wrong... competition is good, but on a limited basis. And socialized societies (not communistic many people get the two confused) are not all that bad (Canada, France, Britain, Germany, ect.). I will be surprised if anyone reads this long post, but anyways take care.

[Logan13]

It is funny because I’ve seen some valid points in this thread made by Tock and Coop but were completely ignored or minimized, but I think are the crux of this thread. There are many services that are socialized here in the U.S. and guess what it is not a bad thing. I am willing to pay a little extra in order for my fellow human being to have medical coverage when needed (and in a sense in the U.S. we already do) and I do not have a problem with if people want to attain higher education. You know every social scientist will agree that an educated and healthy society is better for all of society at large. Pure capitalist ideals are outdated models for running society. And if you look at societies that are based on pure capitalism principle they are not societies you would usually want to live in (India, Hong Kong, ect.). A pure capitalist society usually ends up with wealth accumulated in one small section while every thing tends to become impoverished. It is always better to have a more even distribution of wealth in a society. I think a good example of this can be seen by the Wallmart effect. Wallmart is one of the top money making businesses in the U.S. however most of their employees are the below the U.S. poverty line. IMHO there is something wrong with that system. Where is the social consciousness in this picture?

Don't get me wrong... competition is good, but on a limited basis. And socialized societies (not communistic many people get the two confused) are not all that bad (Canada, France, Britain, Germany, ect.). I will be surprised if anyone reads this long post, but anyways take care.

Competition is good, period. Nature does not create competition on a limited basis. Want socialism, move to a socialist country. After a few years on paying taxes in the 40%, let me know how life is...........

[Fat Guy]

Competition is good, period. Nature does not create competition on a limited basis. Want socialism, move to a socialist country. After a few years on paying taxes in the 40%, let me know how life is...........

We already pay around 40% or more in taxes (federal & state income tax, sales tax, property tax, vehicle registration fees, ect.) and what are we getting for it? Maybe we could get a system that could better cover it’s society members…

[Logan13]

We already pay around 40% or more in taxes (federal & state income tax, sales tax, property tax, vehicle registration fees, ect.) and what are we getting for it?

And the Democrats want to increase that percentage............