"Marine tells of order to execute Haditha women and children"

[Prada]

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Marine_..._08302007.html

A US Marine was ordered to execute a room full of Iraqi women and children during an alleged massacre in Haditha that left 24 people dead, a military court heard Thursday.

The testimony came in the opening of a preliminary hearing for Marine Sergeant Frank Wuterich, who faces 17 counts of murder over the Haditha killings, the most serious war crimes allegations faced by US troops in Iraq.

Wuterich, dressed in desert khakis, spoke confidently to confirm his name as the hearing to decide if he faces a court martial began at the Marines' Camp Pendleton base in southern California.

The 27-year-old listened intently as Lance Corporal Humberto Mendoza recounted how Marines had responded after a roadside bomb attack on their convoy in Haditha on November 19, 2005 left one comrade dead.

Mendoza said Marines under Wuterich's command began clearing nearby houses suspected of containing insurgents responsible for the bombing.

At one house Wuterich gave an order to shoot on sight as Marines waited for a response after knocking on the door, said Mendoza.

"He said 'Just wait till they open the door, then shoot,'" Mendoza said.

Mendoza then said he shot and killed an adult male who appeared in a doorway.

During a subsequent search of the house, Mendoza said he received an order from another Marine, Lance Corporal Stephen Tatum, to shoot seven women and children he had found in a rear bedroom.

"When I opened the door there was just women and kids, two adults were lying down on the bed and there were three children on the bed ... two more were behind the bed," Mendoza said.

"I looked at them for a few seconds. Just enough to know they were not presenting a threat ... they looked scared."

After leaving the room Mendoza told Tatum what he had found.

"I told him there were women and kids inside there. He said 'Well, shoot them,'" Mendoza told prosecutor Lieutenant Colonel Sean Sullivan.

"And what did you say to him?" Sullivan asked.

"I said 'But they're just women and children.' He didn't say nothing."

Mendoza said he returned to a position at the front of the house and heard a door open behind him followed by a loud noise. Returning later that afternoon to conduct body retrieval, Mendoza said he found a room full of corpses.

In cross-examination, however, Major Haytham Faraj suggested a girl who survived the shootings had identified Mendoza as the gunman, sparking an angry reaction from prosecutors.

"The girl in question already identified another Marine," Sullivan stormed. "This is completely unethical, inappropriate and has no basis in fact."

Mendoza had given similar testimony during a preliminary hearing against Tatum earlier this year.

Investigating officer Lieutenant Colonel Paul Ware, who is presiding in Wuterich's hearing, last week recommended dropping murder charges against Tatum, describing Mendoza's evidence as "too weak".

Prosecutors allege Marines went on a killing spree in Haditha retaliation for the death of their colleague in the bomb attack.

Defense lawyers will argue that Wuterich followed established combat zone rules of engagement.

A total of eight Marines were initially charged in connection with the Haditha deaths.

Four were charged with murder while four senior officers were accused of failing to properly investigate the killings.

Of the four Marines charged with murder, two have since had charges withdrawn, while allegations against Tatum are also expected to be dismissed

[helium3]

Has this really happened? i just cant see an order like that being given by a civilised country.

[eliteforce]

Orders to murder Iraqi bystanders are routinly executed by the Americans in Iraq. For example when a roadside bomb or other attack hit's a position, it's standard practice to randomly shoot at whatever civilian target is nearby, a market, school, houses. The USM in Iraq is an oppressor and is hated by general civilian population which supports various insurgent/militia groups so this is how they rationalize these constant killings, or they see no difference between a civilian or a militant.

[helium3]

Orders to murder Iraqi bystanders are routinly executed by the Americans in Iraq. For example when a roadside bomb or other attack hit's a position, it's standard practice to randomly shoot at whatever civilian target is nearby, a market, school, houses. The USM in Iraq is an oppressor and is hated by general civilian population which supports various insurgent/militia groups so this is how they rationalize these constant killings, or they see no difference between a civilian or a militant.

now that is B.S.

inocent people are often killed in war, this is a sad fact, but to say they are targeted specifically by coalition forces is ridiculous.

[RANA]

now that is B.S.

inocent people are often killed in war, this is a sad fact, but to say they are targeted specifically by coalition forces is ridiculous.

I totally agree with Helium3

[RANA]

Orders to murder Iraqi bystanders are routinly executed by the Americans in Iraq. For example when a roadside bomb or other attack hit's a position, it's standard practice to randomly shoot at whatever civilian target is nearby, a market, school, houses. The USM in Iraq is an oppressor and is hated by general civilian population which supports various insurgent/militia groups so this is how they rationalize these constant killings, or they see no difference between a civilian or a militant.

This is such Bullshit, stop reading moveon.org

[helium3]

This is such Bullshit, stop reading moveon.org

Agreed!

imagine how these types of stories affect young and impresionable people.no-wonder we have suicide bombers.

[eliteforce]

http://www.armyofdude.blogspot.com/

"Returning fire from us and the Bradleys killed an untold number of kids unlucky enough to be in the school next to our position. "

CNN/fox/the american press never reports the constant killings of bystandards , there are repeated and regular incidents of US military intentionally killing unarmed Iraqi's when they come under attack, they use this as a method of collective punishment..as well as many other war crimes to intimidate the Iraqi's.

for example often these roadside bombs take hours to place, the USM reasons that someone must have seen them doing it, so after it goes off they murder the people they see around it, because they think those people should have reported it.

[Prada]

A few bad apples are everywhere in society, the military being inclusive. I think overall the US army is one of the most disciplined armies around.

Has this really happened? i just cant see an order like that being given by a civilised country.

This is what was stated in a US military court, Mendoza's testimony. Remains to be proven.

[RANA]

http://www.armyofdude.blogspot.com/

"Returning fire from us and the Bradleys killed an untold number of kids unlucky enough to be in the school next to our position. "

CNN/fox/the american press never reports the constant killings of bystandards , there are repeated and regular incidents of US military intentionally killing unarmed Iraqi's when they come under attack, they use this as a method of collective punishment..as well as many other war crimes to intimidate the Iraqi's.

for example often these roadside bombs take hours to place, the USM reasons that someone must have seen them doing it, so after it goes off they murder the people they see around it, because they think those people should have reported it.

I suppose you did not agree with WWII and the bombing of Dresden?

[RANA]

It's called a war, $hit happens in every war. As sad as it might be it's a WAR.

[eliteforce]

I think that it's just fine that America murders all those people with your tax dollars, "because it's war" so therefore it's OK to be illegally in this country on the otherside of the world (which is none of your fking business by the way) and destroying millions of lives and burning their children. starting wars that murder a million people for the zionist is just OK.

It's also OK for Iran to start bombing American cities with their new nuclear weapons because it's war and fair is fair, and for your face to melt off when one of them goes off nearby, why not? it's war and , I'm sure you'll be so nonchalalant about it when it's your gaddamn world that burns down. I just hope those poor fighting dogs don't burn, oh i'm still worried about the dogs.

[RANA]

I think that it's just fine that America murders all those people with your tax dollars, "because it's war" so therefore it's OK to be illegally in this country on the otherside of the world (which is none of your fking business by the way) and destroying millions of lives and burning their children. starting wars that murder a million people for the zionist is just OK.
It's also OK for Iran to start bombing American cities with their new nuclear weapons because it's war and fair is fair, and for your face to melt off when one of them goes off nearby, why not? it's war and , I'm sure you'll be so nonchalalant about it when it's your gaddamn world that burns down. I just hope those poor fighting dogs don't burn, oh i'm still worried about the dogs.

I see where your true colors come from.

[RANA]

I think that it's just fine that America murders all those people with your tax dollars, "because it's war" so therefore it's OK to be illegally in this country on the otherside of the world (which is none of your fking business by the way) and destroying millions of lives and burning their children. starting wars that murder a million people for the zionist is just OK.

It's also OK for Iran to start bombing American cities with their new nuclear weapons because it's war and fair is fair, and for your face to melt off when one of them goes off nearby, why not? it's war and , I'm sure you'll be so nonchalalant about it when it's your gaddamn world that burns down. I just hope those poor fighting dogs don't burn, oh i'm still worried about the dogs.

What makes it illegal? Do we need the UN approval?

[BgMc31]

whether we like it or not, we are there and it is a war. This shit is nothing new, atrocities happen in every war.

[eliteforce]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/wo...in&oref=slogin

You people seem to think this kind of dirty war has been "normal" for America, like America has always fought these kinds of wars and you are wrong. The WWs were not like that, America was not hated when they swept through pacific islands or through Italy and France and muslim north Africa. It wasn't the same in Korea either which was another conventional war. It was only vietnam when America started becoming an oppressor that occupies developing countries mongol style, burning villages, massacring
..
Then came America's enthusiastic and direct support for Israel starting in the 1970's (particularly starting in the YomKupper war) in which America started to directly supply and bankroll their oppresive actions-and this was done because of a corrupt forign lobby-AIPAC and it's allied conspirators in the AMerican aritocracy ..There was brief lull for a few years due to Jimmy Carter's peaemaking efforts, he brokered a peace agreement which made the Israeli's get out of the Egyptian sinai, he told the Israelis no to west bank settlements and NO invasion of lebanon, he made it clear that the next round of peacemaking would involve withdrawel from the Palestinian territory..so the the lobby got rid of him and installed that idiot Reagan, Reagan green lights the invasion of lebanon and aggrees to pay for it (killing 10's of thousands and detroying that country and many more lives) he also encourages israeli settlements (and pays for them with the corrupt zionist controlled congress) creating the most repressive racist aphartied state in history..all of this murder and oppresion creates an islamic backlash and 'terrorism' and islamic militancy becomes worse and worse, US policy becomes even more unpopular with overzealous sanctions on Iraq which wind up killing people who can't get basic medicines..this culminates in more terrorism and now this zionist oppresion war in Iraq, attempting to force a proud nationalist arab country to accept being dominated by a genocidal imperialist aphartied supporting regime in America..it's not normal it's fked up, and it's not good for American's either.

[RA]

Biggest load of shit Ive heard in a while.

[helium3]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/wo...in&oref=slogin

You people seem to think this kind of dirty war has been "normal" for America, like America has always fought these kinds of wars and you are wrong. The WWs were not like that, America was not hated when they swept through pacific islands or through Italy and France and muslim north Africa. It wasn't the same in Korea either which was another conventional war. It was only vietnam when America started becoming an oppressor that occupies developing countries mongol style, burning villages, massacring
..
Then came America's enthusiastic and direct support for Israel starting in the 1970's (particularly starting in the YomKupper war) in which America started to directly supply and bankroll their oppresive actions-and this was done because of a corrupt forign lobby-AIPAC and it's allied conspirators in the AMerican aritocracy ..There was brief lull for a few years due to Jimmy Carter's peaemaking efforts, he brokered a peace agreement which made the Israeli's get out of the Egyptian sinai, he told the Israelis no to west bank settlements and NO invasion of lebanon, he made it clear that the next round of peacemaking would involve withdrawel from the Palestinian territory..so the the lobby got rid of him and installed that idiot Reagan, Reagan green lights the invasion of lebanon and aggrees to pay for it (killing 10's of thousands and detroying that country and many more lives) he also encourages israeli settlements (and pays for them with the corrupt zionist controlled congress) creating the most repressive racist aphartied state in history..all of this murder and oppresion creates an islamic backlash and 'terrorism' and islamic militancy becomes worse and worse, US policy becomes even more unpopular with overzealous sanctions on Iraq which wind up killing people who can't get basic medicines..this culminates in more terrorism and now this zionist oppresion war in Iraq, attempting to force a proud nationalist arab country to accept being dominated by a genocidal imperialist aphartied supporting regime in America..it's not normal it's fked up, and it's not good for American's either.

this area of the world has been fighting since day one and if left unchecked would continue to murder each other until the end of time.

people are sick to death of how unstable these countries are, so it was about time someone tried to fix it, cos im damn sure none of the opposing factions would.

eventually these people will find it unexceptable to execute someone in the middle of the street or hang people and show it on tv like its just entertainment, its called having an evolved sensibilty.

the americans are far less blood thirsty than middle eastern countries(not all) will ever be.

[mcpeepants]

this area of the world has been fighting since day one and if left unchecked would continue to murder each other until the end of time.

people are sick to death of how unstable these countries are, so it was about time someone tried to fix it, cos im damn sure none of the opposing factions would.

eventually these people will find it unexceptable to execute someone in the middle of the street or hang people and show it on tv like its just entertainment, its called having an evolved sensibilty.

the americans are far less blood thirsty than middle eastern countries(not all) will ever be.

humans have been fighting one another since we appeared. All civilizations and peoples whether European, Asian, African, American,Oceania, etc have fought one anothers and their own people since the dawn of mankind as well as living in peace with and intermarrying their neighbors. Why do you single middle easterners out? Do you say the same about Americans like "these Americans have invaded 2 countries since 2001", "these Americans like bombing people and starting wars", "these Americans have fought since day one", "these people love the death penalty", etc.

[RANA]

humans have been fighting one another since we appeared. All civilizations and peoples whether European, Asian, African, American,Oceania, etc have fought one anothers and their own people since the dawn of mankind as well as living in peace with and intermarrying their neighbors. Why do you single middle easterners out? Do you say the same about Americans like "these Americans have invaded 2 countries since 2001", "these Americans like bombing people and starting wars", "these Americans have fought since day one", "these people love the death penalty", etc.

"Then these Americans will send billions of dollars to build the country up, These Americans will free countries, these Americans will help these counties forever and ever" Damn these Americans why do you go free countries and help them out all the time? Why?
Why did these Americans go to Europe to fight those friendly Nazis? Why did those Americans fight those loving Communists? Why are those Americans fighting those innocent Islamic Fanatics?
Damn those Americans trying to spread freedom, freedom for women to go to school, freedom to practice religion, freedom of speech, freedom... well I guess you get my point.

[Logan13]

whether we like it or not, we are there and it is a war. This shit is nothing new, atrocities happen in every war.

100% agree. If this shit occurred, those responsible will be punished. Look at abu graab. Too bad our enemies still stone woman to death for the way they dress, or looking a man in the eye, etc...........

[mcpeepants]

"Then these Americans will send billions of dollars to build the country up, These Americans will free countries, these Americans will help these counties forever and ever" Damn these Americans why do you go free countries and help them out all the time? Why?
Why did these Americans go to Europe to fight those friendly Nazis? Why did those Americans fight those loving Communists? Why are those Americans fighting those innocent Islamic Fanatics?
Damn those Americans trying to spread freedom, freedom for women to go to school, freedom to practice religion, freedom of speech, freedom... well I guess you get my point.

Seems like you didn't even try to comprehend what I wrote. helium3 made broad generalizations about the middle east as being basically "blood hirsty" while including ignore all the bloody conflicts and wars western nations have been involved. Justing pointing out helium3's double standard.

Freedom hmm. Are we supporting freedom when we support autrocratic kings and presidents in the middle east and central asia? Were we supporting freedom when we armed bin laden? Were we supporting freedom when we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Were we supporting freedom when we supported Saddam as he was gassing the Kurdish civilians and Iranian troops? The US has even said that the "war on terror" is more important than democracy in Pakistan. Is that supporting freedom?

The people who yell loudest about "freedom" are usually the ones less likely to support it at home or abroad. Freedom can't be spread by force, only by example.

[Logan13]

humans have been fighting one another since we appeared. All civilizations and peoples whether European, Asian, African, American,Oceania, etc have fought one anothers and their own people since the dawn of mankind as well as living in peace with and intermarrying their neighbors. Why do you single middle easterners out? Do you say the same about Americans like "these Americans have invaded 2 countries since 2001", "these Americans like bombing people and starting wars", "these Americans have fought since day one", "these people love the death penalty", etc.

When was the last time you seen an advertisment about vacationing in Iran, or really anywhere in the middle east?
"Travel to ______(pick the country), to enjoy 6th century barbarism. Take part in the stoning of a 13YO girl."
That must be the US's fault as well.......

[mcpeepants]

When was the last time you seen an advertisment about vacationing in Iran, or really anywhere in the middle east?
"Travel to ______(pick the country), to enjoy 6th century barbarism. Take part in the stoning of a 13YO girl."
That must be the US's fault as well.......

That's the direction social conservatives want to take America. It's seems like you'd feel right at home there.

[RANA]

Seems like you didn't even try to comprehend what I wrote. helium3 made broad generalizations about the middle east as being basically "blood hirsty" while including ignore all the bloody conflicts and wars western nations have been involved. Justing pointing out helium3's double standard.

Freedom hmm. Are we supporting freedom when we support autrocratic kings and presidents in the middle east and central asia? Were we supporting freedom when we armed bin laden? Were we supporting freedom when we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Were we supporting freedom when we supported Saddam as he was gassing the Kurdish civilians and Iranian troops? The US has even said that the "war on terror" is more important than democracy in Pakistan. Is that supporting freedom?
The people who yell loudest about "freedom" are usually the ones less likely to support it at home or abroad. Freedom can't be spread by force, only by example.

Are we supporting freedom when we support autrocratic kings and presidents in the middle east and central asia?

Freedom and our best interest

Were we supporting freedom when we armed bin laden?

Yes, from the Communists

Were we supporting freedom when we supported Saddam as he was gassing the Kurdish civilians and Iranian troops?

Yes, we wanted Iraq to beat Iran, Iran was our enemy, I am sure you heard of the hostage situation back then

The US has even said that the "war on terror" is more important than democracy in Pakistan. Is that supporting freedom?

So now attack Pakistan?

The people who yell loudest about "freedom" are usually the ones less likely to support it at home or abroad.

Really? I served my country, what about you?

[mcpeepants]

Are we supporting freedom when we support autrocratic kings and presidents in the middle east and central asia?

Freedom and our best interest

Were we supporting freedom when we armed bin laden?

Yes, from the Communists

Were we supporting freedom when we supported Saddam as he was gassing the Kurdish civilians and Iranian troops?

Yes, we wanted Iraq to beat Iran, Iran was our enemy, I am sure you heard of the hostage situation back then

The US has even said that the "war on terror" is more important than democracy in Pakistan. Is that supporting freedom?

So now attack Pakistan?

The people who yell loudest about "freedom" are usually the ones less likely to support it at home or abroad.

Really? I served my country, what about you?

1. We're just serving are interest
2. the enemy of my enemy politics
3. Killing innocent men, women, and children supports freedom? You said nothing about overthrowing Iran's democratic government. That seems like something "a freedom lover" wouldn't ignore.
4. the government is saying it couldn't give a sh*t about democracy. something it talks about spreading.
5. No I did not serve. Did your serving give me freedom? almost sounds like it's the how dare you use the freedom that I fought for rhetoric

[RANA]

1. We're just serving are interest
2. the enemy of my enemy politics
3. Killing innocent men, women, and children supports freedom? You said nothing about overthrowing Iran's democratic government. That seems like something "a freedom lover" wouldn't ignore.
4. the government is saying it couldn't give a sh*t about democracy. something it talks about spreading.
5. No I did not serve. Did your serving give me freedom? almost sounds like it's the how dare you use the freedom that I fought for rhetoric

1. Not sure which part you did not understand "freedom" at least I can admit that we where serving our interests, you can't even admit that America tries to spread freedom, we can't be everywhere
2. Yep, works for everyone
3. That is horse $hit, always go to the killing of innocents, I am sure you don't consider a fetus innocent?
Regarding Iran I passed it because I forgot about it, but yes I am a Freedom lover not some tree hugging ****. Iran 1953 was a mistake, amazing how I can admit to things.
4. What do you want another invasion so you can bitch
5. No just making a point. I am not serving myself but my country

[mcpeepants]

1. Not sure which part you did not understand "freedom" at least I can admit that we where serving our interests, you can't even admit that America tries to spread freedom, we can't be everywhere
2. Yep, works for everyone
3. That is horse $hit, always go to the killing of innocents, I am sure you don't consider a fetus innocent?
Regarding Iran I passed it because I forgot about it, but yes I am a Freedom lover not some tree hugging ****. Iran 1953 was a mistake, amazing how I can admit to things.
4. What do you want another invasion so you can bitch
5. No just making a point. I am not serving myself but my country

1. I don't believe we can force democracy and freedom. That's why I don't believe Bush when we are spreading freedom. However, we do spread democracy by emulation. When other countries see how are democracy works and freedom in America, they will want to copy.

2. agree

3. this is very relevant. when Saddam was doing his most heinous crimes, he had the full backing of the US. Saddam crimes are an example of what could happen when we support "our interest" over freedom. A fetus is innocent. How many babies and unborn babies were killed by the poison gas? We agree on the last point about Iran.

4. since I didn't support Afghanistan or Iraq war, why would I want to invade Pakistan. this shoots the spreading democracy argument to pieces. the "war on terror" is more important than democracy in Pakistan.

5. ok

[helium3]

humans have been fighting one another since we appeared. All civilizations and peoples whether European, Asian, African, American,Oceania, etc have fought one anothers and their own people since the dawn of mankind as well as living in peace with and intermarrying their neighbors. Why do you single middle easterners out? Do you say the same about Americans like "these Americans have invaded 2 countries since 2001", "these Americans like bombing people and starting wars", "these Americans have fought since day one", "these people love the death penalty", etc.

if you read the title of the thread again you would notice it mentions iran, which to my knowlege is in the miidle east.it was the topic of discussion and so i directed my comments in that direction.

but i know of no other "area" of the world that publicises cutting peoples heads off and parading it about on tv.

[Teabagger]

If my memory serves me correct...several weeks ago it was confirmed by forensic specialists the video of the massacre was staged by the terrorists....

Hell I'm all for pulling every military assest out of the middle east, europe, korea and anywhere else we have them....placing them on the Northern and Southern border of the US and shooting to kill any man, woman, or child attempting to cross, or actually invade the US. Screw the rest of the world...

America First...............the rest of you welfare states run a far second.

[helium3]

its nice to know we can count on our american brothers and sisters.

[mcpeepants]

if you read the title of the thread again you would notice it mentions iran, which to my knowlege is in the miidle east.it was the topic of discussion and so i directed my comments in that direction.

but i know of no other "area" of the world that publicises cutting peoples heads off and parading it about on tv.

the thread is called "Marine tells of order to execute Haditha women and children". What does that have to do with Iran?

The death penalty is the same whether a country chooses to show it to the public or keep it hidden. It does change the fact that the government is killing a person or spitting on the so called "sanctity of life". In the middle east at least your quite aware of what supporting the death penalty means and it is not sanitized by the government as it is here.

[RANA]

the thread is called "Marine tells of order to execute Haditha women and children". What does that have to do with Iran?

The death penalty is the same whether a country chooses to show it to the public or keep it hidden. It does change the fact that the government is killing a person or spitting on the so called "sanctity of life". In the middle east at least your quite aware of what supporting the death penalty means and it is not sanitized by the government as it is here.

Not really, I can see getting the death penalty for murdering someone, but over there you get it for adultery, saying anything negitive about allah etc...
That is a huge difference

[helium3]

the thread is called "Marine tells of order to execute Haditha women and children". What does that have to do with Iran?

The death penalty is the same whether a country chooses to show it to the public or keep it hidden. It does change the fact that the government is killing a person or spitting on the so called "sanctity of life". In the middle east at least your quite aware of what supporting the death penalty means and it is not sanitized by the government as it is here.

oops my bad! wrong thread.

well it has to do with iraq so my previous references about the middle east parading grotesque and violent images on tv stands! life is as cheap as it gets out there.

they are so casual about killing ,while most countries, when it comes to the death penalty the procedure is much more civilised(relative). however i dont agree with the death penalty, i believe people should suffer for their actions and learn from their mistakes.

these people need to be brought into the 21st century, out of the dark ages where they dwell at the moment.

[mcpeepants]

Not really, I can see getting the death penalty for murdering someone, but over there you get it for adultery, saying anything negitive about allah etc...
That is a huge difference

My point is on the difference between performing the death penalty in public or private. They both lead to the same results and both cheapen life. I want to abolish the death penalty so I'm not a fan of Iran being one of the world leaders in executing whether it is for defaming god (blasphemy and heresy used to capital crimes in the West and I good reason why we should keep religion and state separate), rape (rape used to be a capital crime here), or murder.

[mcpeepants]

oops my bad! wrong thread.

well it has to do with iraq so my previous references about the middle east parading grotesque and violent images on tv stands! life is as cheap as it gets out there.

they are so casual about killing ,while most countries, when it comes to the death penalty the procedure is much more civilised(relative). however i dont agree with the death penalty, i believe people should suffer for their actions and learn from their mistakes.

these people need to be brought into the 21st century, out of the dark ages where they dwell at the moment.

What is a more civilized execution? The purpose of the US and middle eastern death penalty is to killed the guilty or sentenced party, they only differ on the method. I think the difference in the west is that they want to sanitize execution so it is more watchable and less trammatic for the viewer and the supporters. Seeing a person stoned to death would be frightening and the images of it would be hard to get out because you would of witness the person trying to escape from the hole as they were being stoned. It would be a lot harder to support the death penalty after witnessing that. But then again, those Roman Colosseum's were pretty popular.

[Logan13]

Seems like you didn't even try to comprehend what I wrote. helium3 made broad generalizations about the middle east as being basically "blood hirsty" while including ignore all the bloody conflicts and wars western nations have been involved. Justing pointing out helium3's double standard.

Freedom hmm. Are we supporting freedom when we support autrocratic kings and presidents in the middle east and central asia? Were we supporting freedom when we armed bin laden? Were we supporting freedom when we overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953? Were we supporting freedom when we supported Saddam as he was gassing the Kurdish civilians and Iranian troops? The US has even said that the "war on terror" is more important than democracy in Pakistan. Is that supporting freedom?

The people who yell loudest about "freedom" are usually the ones less likely to support it at home or abroad. Freedom can't be spread by force, only by example.

As I recall, you immigrated into the US from Africa. Since you obviously do not like this country(which your posts indicate), why not go where you will be happy? Why continue to torture yourself by being here?

[eliteforce]

living in a country has nothing to do with a persons opinions on that countries domestic or foriegn policies, you don't have to like a countries policies to live in it, otherwise 60% of America's population would have to leave because they don't like the Iraq war.

[Logan13]

living in a country has nothing to do with a persons opinions on that countries domestic or foriegn policies, you don't have to like a countries policies to live in it, otherwise 60% of America's population would have to leave because they don't like the Iraq war.

Sure it does. If it is so much better elsewhere, move...........
You and peepants have more issues than just the Iraq war. In this country, you have the right to be a whiner, but I have the right to call you on it as well.

[helium3]

What is a more civilized execution? The purpose of the US and middle eastern death penalty is to killed the guilty or sentenced party, they only differ on the method. I think the difference in the west is that they want to sanitize execution so it is more watchable and less trammatic for the viewer and the supporters. Seeing a person stoned to death would be frightening and the images of it would be hard to get out because you would of witness the person trying to escape from the hole as they were being stoned. It would be a lot harder to support the death penalty after witnessing that. But then again, those Roman Colosseum's were pretty popular.

yeah were being the operative word!

even if the death penalty is just, some of the reasons for enforcing it in the middle east are trivial as was stated earlier.

i once had the misfortune of watching an execution on the internet, i didnt realise what was going off until the last second as it was in iraqi.

a women sat on the pavement with a few people stood around her, people were gathering when suddenly a man walked up and shot her through the head, as casual as you like, almost as though it was just a game. this i learned after was an execution, it was sickening to watch, but i guess when you live with this crap all the time, its just like watching cricket match to them.